Is there salvation outside of the Church?

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Another thing and a question.

I have wondered why your website does have those Mary photos all over…does that not show the real end of roman catholic faith? I do not want to talk about, the first miracle and so on… you know, that is what all catholics always come up with. I know it. I have discussed it. Nowhere in the Bible and none of the Apostles has believed that. There are other doctrines about her, that take people away from salvation because of adoring other Gods like she es. If you do not know what I am talking about come down to Mexico and see what is going on!
 
Friend, I am living for 3 years now in Mexico City. Mexico as you know is about 95% roman catholic with a growing christian minority. We are talking to people every week. Not even once have I found a roman catholic that knew what I was talking about when I mentioned the need to be born again. So please dont tell me that that is what the RCC teaches.
It’s probably because you are explaining it in a way that is totally foreign to Christianity for the first 1800 years. Being “born again” is what takes place when a person is baptized. It is through baptism that a man is “born again of water and the Holy Ghost”.

**Council of Trent: **"Can. 2. If anyone says that true and natural water is not necessary for baptism and thus twists into some metaphor the words of our Lord Jesus Christ: “Unless a man be born again of water and the Holy Ghost,” let him be anathema.

Being born again through baptism is what all Christians believe from day one.

The Protestant heretics claim that a person is born agian by saying the “sinner’s prayer” which is made up prayer no where to be found in the Bible. In fact, you will never find an example of people in the Bible being led in a “sinner’s prayer” when they desired salvation. On the contrary, when people ask Peter what they must to do be saved, he tells them to repent and be batpized “for the remission of their sins”:

Acts 2:38: “Now when they had heard these things, they had compunction in their heart, and said to Peter, and to the rest of the apostles: What shall we do, men and brethren? 38 But Peter said to them: Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ, for the remission of your sins: and you shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost”

It is through baptism that we are born again and receive the Holy Ghost. Not by praying a “sinner’s prayer”. That is a non-biblical invention, based on a misinderstanding of two unrelated verses.
About the quote from Matthew 16, that is actually the one and only that I have heard over and over from roman catholics, due to the fact that is the only way to, if you twist it a little though, to say that Peter was the rock on which the whole church is built.
I understand that Protestants have been misinformed over the issue of “the rock”, that’s why I didn’t emphasis that part. I emphasized the next part - the part where Jesus said he was giving Peter the keys to heaven with the ability to open and shut heaven.

If you want to read by reply to verse 18 (the rock verse), read my earlier posts to Yankey_Drifter found here.
About purgatory and the quote from Matthew 12 you try to confirm it with. … Sorry but that does not imply anything. The only thing it says here that the sin against the Holy Spirit will never be forgiven. **Nowhere does it say that all the other sins **will be forgiven in the world to come.
I didn’t say that all other sins will be forgiven in the next world. But if some sins are not forgiven in the next world, then what Jesus said makes absolutely no sense.
How often does Jesus say that if you believe in him (as God, as Saviour, as the only one who can forgive sin and so on) your sins are forgiven? Either my friend your sins are forgiven or they are not.
Unfortunatley, you have accepted the Protstant view of salvation - which is totally contrary to the Bible. I’m sure you preacher taught it to you. Since he probably quoted a few out of context Bible verses, you think you learned the teaching from the Bible In reality, you learned it from a man who was misinterpreting the Bible.

The first thing to consider is that a claim of belief in Jesus does not suffice. Even the Jehovah’s Witnesses *claim *to believe in Jesus. To truly believe in Jesus (the real Jesus) you have to actually believe what Jesus taught. So, for example, you have to believe that to be saved you must keep the commandments since that is what Jesus taught:

Mt 19: “Good master, what good shall I do that I may have life everlasting? … [Jesus said] if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments”.

Do you believe a person must keep the commandments to be saved? If not, you don’t believe in Jesus, since you reject what He taught. Like the Jehovah’s Witnesses, you might think you believe in Jesus, but in reality you believe in “another Christ and another Gospel”.

According to the Bible, if we claim to know Jesus, yet keep not the commandments, we are a liar.

1 John 2: "And by this we know that we have known him, if we keep his commandments. 4 He who saith that he knoweth him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him. 5 But he that keepeth his word, in him in very deed the charity of God is perfected; and by this we know that we are in him.

I bet your preacher taught you that all you need to do to be saved is “accept Jesus”. If so, you need to tell him to read the rest of the Bible.

You say you live in Mexico. I’m curious if you gew up Catholic and got led away by a Protestant “missionary”.
 
It’s probably because you are explaining it in a way that is totally foreign to Christianity for the first 1800 years. Being “born again” is what takes place when a person is baptized. It is through baptism that a man is *“born again of water *and the Holy Ghost”.

**Council of Trent: **"Can. 2. If anyone says that true and natural water is not necessary for baptism and thus twists into some metaphor the words of our Lord Jesus Christ: “Unless a man be born again of water and the Holy Ghost,” let him be anathema.

Being born again through baptism is what all Christians believe from day one.
I’ve been a Catholic my whole life and I know many Catholics, some who are family members, who have been baptised and are not born again. I also know Catholics who say they never really knew Jesus until much later on in life so baptism isn’t an automatic infusion of the knowledge of God for everyone. People must be taught more than “we are the true religion and if you leave us you go to hell.”

John 3:8 The wind blows wherever it pleases. You hear its sound, but you cannot tell where it comes from or where it is going. So it is with everyone born of the Spirit.”

To be born of the Spirit is something God does all by Himself. The evidence is in those of all religions who have been taught truth or not taught truth, but in spite of their education or lack of education, some know God and some don’t.
 
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A quick comment to some part of sentence “the RCC teaches what Jesus taught”

Jesus taught that a man had to be born again. [SIGN]Any catholic, that does not read the Bible has never heard of that[/SIGN]. If I talk for example with my roman catholic relatives about that, they do not have the slightest idea that this thing is even in the Bible or that Jesus ever said that. There is no understanding of spiritual things.

Apart from that, when did Jesus tell that the pope was going to be his representant on earth? Even Peter in his first card says openly that the cornerstone is not him, but Jesus Christ. And the real representant of the Lord, if you read Scripture, is the Holy Spirit as is mentioned plenty of times in the Gospels.

Then, where did Jesus teach salvation through purgatory? Jesus taught about two places, which is heaven and hell. Think about where you are going NOW, and not that whatever you will be doing you will go to heaven. The RCC doctrines are so inconsistent in themselves. What is a roman catholic actually saved through???

What the RCC teaches is THEIR OWN doctrine, not the one of Jesus. But the problem is that Catholics do not read their Bibles or, like Jehovas Witnesses do, read it but having glasses on with doctrine that comes from their priest.

So if you say the RCC teaches Christian doctrine, thats just wrong, as wrong as it could be. Thats also why so many Catholics run away from their faith, because when they really start reading the Word of God and understand it, they cannot go there anymore.
Untrue. I knew before I could even read when I started School in first grade that we were reborn in Christ at Baptism. Now could you show me one piece of Catholic teaching, just ONE that disagrees with the bible.
 
I’ve been a Catholic my whole life and I know many Catholics, some who are family members, who have been baptised and are not born again. I also know Catholics who say they never really knew Jesus until much later on in life so baptism isn’t an automatic infusion of the knowledge of God for everyone. People must be taught more than “we are the true religion and if you leave us you go to hell.”

John 3:8 The wind blows wherever it pleases. You hear its sound, but you cannot tell where it comes from or where it is going. So it is with everyone born of the Spirit.”

To be born of the Spirit is something God does all by Himself. The evidence is in those of all religions who have been taught truth or not taught truth, but in spite of their education or lack of education, some know God and some don’t.
Yes its called Baptism. How can a Catholic possibly be Baptised in the Name of the Father and SOn and the Holy Spirit and not be born again of the SPirit. Please explain that to me?
 
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Another thing and a question.

I have wondered why your website does have those [SIGN]Mary photos all over…[/SIGN]does that not show the real end of roman catholic faith? I do not want to talk about, the first miracle and so on… you know, that is what all catholics always come up with. I know it. I have discussed it. Nowhere in the Bible and none of the Apostles has believed that. There are other doctrines about her, that take people away from salvation because of adoring other Gods like she es. If you do not know what I am talking about come down to Mexico and see what is going on!
What are you trying to say having photos of Mary around are going to send us to hell. What amazes me the most about what you said is how Mary is going to take away our salvation. That is the biggest laugh yet. If it was not for Mary saying yes to God and giving us Jesus there would be no salvation.
 
I’ve been a Catholic my whole life and I know many Catholics, some who are family members, who have been baptised and are not born again. I also know Catholics who say they never really knew Jesus until much later on in life
Your confusing a few things. Baptism is indeed how a person is born again. But being born again does not infuse knowledge into the intellect. It infused sanctifying grace into the soul. Sanctifying grace, or the “indwelling Holy Ghost”, as st. Paul says, is not something that is felt, or even experience in the level of the feelings.

What you are calling “born again” is more of a conversion experience. Potestants call a conversion experience being “born again”, but they use the wrong term, since being born again is what takes place at baptism when grace is infused into the soul. Again, it doesn’t infuse knowlege into the intellect. Knowledge must be obtained through learning.

Here’s a very good link to information on this topic, including the writings of the Church fathers dealing with this subject. Here’s a few quotes from the Church Fathers taken from that site:

Tertullian: “When, however, the prescript is laid down that 'without baptism, salvation is attainable by none” (chiefly on the ground of that declaration of the Lord, who says, “Unless one be born of water, he hath not life.’” Tertullian, On Baptism, 12:1 (A.D. 203).

St. Clement: “But you will perhaps say, What does the, baptism of water contribute towards the worship of God? In the first place, because that which hath pleased God is fulfilled. In the second place, because, when yon are regenerated and born again of water and of God, the frailty of your former birth, which you have through men, is cut off, and so at length you shall be able to attain salvation; hut otherwise it is impossible. For thus hath the true prophet testified to its with an oath: ‘Verily I say to you, That unless a man is born again of water, he shall not enter into the kingdom of heaven’. Therefore make haste; for there is in these waters a certain power of mercy which was borne upon them at the beginning, and acknowledges those who are baptized under the name of the threefold sacrament, and rescues them from future punishments, presenting as a gift to God the souls that are consecrated by baptism. Betake yourselves therefore to these waters, for they alone can quench the violence of the future fire; and he who delays to approach to them, it is evident that the idol of unbelief remains in him, and by it be is prevented from hastening to the waters which confer salvation. … Therefore all should hasten to he born again to God without delay, because the end of every one’s life is uncertain.” Recognitions of Clement, 6:9 (A.D. 221).

Origen: “The Church received from the Apostles the tradition of giving Baptism even to infants. For the Apostles, to whom were committed the secrets of divine mysteries, knew that there is in everyone the innate stains of sins, which must be washed away through water and the Spirit.” Origen, Commentary on Romans, 5:9 (A.D. 244).

St. Cyprian: “[W]hen they come to us and to the Church which is one, ought to be baptized, for the reason that it is a small matter to ‘lay hands on them that they may receive the Holy Ghost,’ unless they receive also the baptism of the Church. For then finally can they be fully sanctified, and be the sons of God, if they be born of each sacrament; since it is written, ‘Except a man be born again of water, and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.’…[O]nly baptism of the holy Church, by divine regeneration, for the kingdom of God, may be born of both sacraments, because it is written, ‘Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.’” Cyprian, To Stephen, 71:72 (A.D. 253).

St. Augustine: “It is this one Spirit who makes it possible for an infant to be regenerated through the agency of another’s will when that infant is brought to Baptism; and it is through this one Spirit that the infant so presented is reborn…‘Unless a man be born again of water and the Holy Spirit.’ The water, therefore, manifesting exteriorly the sacrament of grace, and the Spirit effecting interiorly the benefit of grace, both regenerate in one Christ that man who was in one Adam.” Augustine, To Boniface, Epistle 98:2 (A.D. 408).

St. Augustine: “But the sacrament of baptism is undoubtedly the sacrament of regeneration: Wherefore, as the man who has never lived cannot die, and he who has never died cannot rise again, so he who has never been born cannot be born again. From which the conclusion arises, that no one who has not been born could possibly have been born again in his father. Born again, however, a man must be, after he has been born; because, ‘Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God’ Even an infant, therefore, must be imbued with the sacrament of regeneration, lest without it his would be an unhappy exit out of this life; and this baptism is not administered except for the remission of sins. And so much does Christ show us in this very passage; for when asked, How could such things be? He reminded His questioner of what Moses did when he lifted up the serpent. Inasmuch, then, as infants are by the sacrament of baptism conformed to the death of Christ, it must be admitted that they are also freed from the serpent’s poisonous bite, unless we wilfully wander from the rule of the Christian faith. This bite, however, they did not receive in their own actual life, but in him on whom the wound was primarily inflicted.” Augustine, On Forgiveness of sin and baptism, 43:27 (A.D. 412).
 
Yes its called Baptism. How can a Catholic possibly be Baptised in the Name of the Father and SOn and the Holy Spirit and not be born again of the SPirit. Please explain that to me?
I can’t explain how or why it happens but it happens. Everyone knows Catholics who don’t believe in Jesus.

One of the signs of being born of the Spirit is this:

Romans 8:16 The Spirit himself testifies with our spirit that we are God’s children.

This is what Jesus said:
John 3:5 Jesus answered, "Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.

So He didn’t say just get baptized and you will be saved. You must believe in the death and resurrection of Jesus to be saved.
Mark 16:16 "He who has believed and has been baptized shall be saved; but he who has disbelieved shall be condemned.

**And of course I’m not preaching faith alone salvation. **
 
I can’t explain how or why it happens but it happens. Everyone knows Catholics who don’t believe in Jesus.
That doesn’t mean they weren’t born again when they were baptized as infants; it just means they fell way from the faith. Just because a person is born again does not mean they can’t fall away.
So He didn’t say just get baptized and you will be saved. You must believe in the death and resurrection of Jesus to be saved.
Mark 16:16 "He who has believed and has been baptized shall be saved; but he who has disbelieved shall be condemned.
No one claims that baptism will save one who refused to believe; and belief in the death and resurrection is not enough. Even the Jehovah’s Witnesses (who deny the Divinity of Jesus) believe that. In fact, almost every heretical sect that has ever existed in this history of Christianity believed in the death and resurrection of Jesus. To be saved we have to be baptized and believe all that He taught.

Matt: 28:18 "And Jesus coming, spoke to them, saying: All power is given to me in heaven and in earth. 19 Going therefore, teach ye all nations; baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost. 20 Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and behold I am with you all days, even to the consummation of the world.

Mark 16: 15 And he said to them: Go ye into the whole world, and preach the gospel to every creature. 16 He that believeth and is baptized, shall be saved: but he that believeth not shall be condemned.
 
That doesn’t mean they weren’t born again when they were baptized as infants; it just means they fell way from the faith. Just because a person is born again does not mean they can’t fall away.
A fallen away person has some memory of what happened. I know people who have no memory of ever having believed and don’t feel they are missing anything. It doesn’t bother them at all.
 
Your confusing a few things. Baptism is indeed how a person is born again.
Not all the time. There is also adult baptism. The adult gets faith by hearing the gospel and then repents, believes and is baptised.
 
A fallen away person has some memory of what happened. I know people who have no memory of ever having believed and don’t feel they are missing anything. It doesn’t bother them at all.
Thats an impossible assumption to make. How do you know anothers heart. Do you not realize that everyone feels alone and something if missing in their life one time or another.

SO they chase, and chase, money. power, love, lust, bigger house, better house. more more more. Un til they snap. And then they get the answer, God. Gods grace. And for many that same Grace you deny they received at Baptism that they threw away.

I would love to meet anyone in this world who do not have God in their life, and feel they are not missing something. Because its impossible. They may not know what that emptyness is, but I can guarantee you its there.

But I would love to meet this people who you feel they are missing nothing. Could it be they know they are missing something just don’t REALIZE its God?
 
A fallen away person has some memory of what happened. I know people who have no memory of ever having believed and don’t feel they are missing anything. It doesn’t bother them at all.
It can happen completely imperceptibly, especially if the person was baptized as a child.

Don’t forget that baptism does not infuse knowledge into the intellect, but only grace into the soul. At baptism the *virtue *of faith is infused, but not the knowledge of the faith. This comes later when the person is able to understand. If the person dies before reaching the age of reason, this grace and virtue of faith will save them.

If they grow up and attain the use of reason, the person is then required to accept the faith and profess it. The virtue of faith will help them do this, but it will not force them. If, for whatever reason, they do not accept the faith, the virtue will be lost and with it will go grace. It may be that the person is never taught the faith. If so, at some point the grace will leave their soul. There are many Catholic parents today who neglect this important duty and will have to answer to God for it.

God freely gives his grace to babies through baptism with the assumption that thes parents and Godparents will teach him the faith when it gets older - since they make this promise at the baptism. If they fail in this duty, it could very well happen that the child grows up and falls from grace without even knowing it, due to a lack of belief.
 
Thats an impossible assumption to make. How do you know anothers heart. Do you not realize that everyone feels alone and something if missing in their life one time or another.

SO they chase, and chase, money. power, love, lust, bigger house, better house. more more more. Un til they snap. And then they get the answer, God. Gods grace. And for many that same Grace you deny they received at Baptism that they threw away.
Unbaptised heathens also have that same experience so it’s not the early baptism that brings them to God. It is God Himself in both situations.
I would love to meet anyone in this world who do not have God in their life, and feel they are not missing something. Because its impossible. They may not know what that emptyness is, but I can guarantee you its there.
Come to New York. They’re everywhere. Some people are enjoying this life apart from God because they can do whatever they want without guilt.
 
"Ultima:
Ultima Ratio
Your confusing a few things. Baptism is indeed how a person is born again.
Not all the time. There is also adult baptism. The adult gets faith by hearing the gospel and then repents, believes and is baptised.
What you said didn’t contradict what I said. With an adult, explicit faith is necessary before they can be baptized. In this case, the knowledge preceeds baptism, but it doesn’t come into the intellect through baptism.

Faith comes about, not just by hearing, but by hearing *and believing. * By hearing, the knowledge enters the intellect. The person then either accepts it, or rejects it. If he accepts it, he receives the virtue of faith, even before being baptized. Then, when he receives baptism, he receives grace and is thereby born again.

We can see this happening in Acts 2. Peter preaches to the Jews. They hear the truth and accept it. By accepting the truth, the thereby receive the virtue of faith. Next they ask what they must do to be saved. Notice, Peter didn’t tell them they are already saved because they believe (I know you don’t believe that, but some who read this might. No, he tells them to be baptized, and by so doing they will receive the Holy Ghost (sanctifying grace).

So, faith is required for an adult to receive baptism, but the knowledge of the faith does not come into the intellect by baptism, but by “hearing”.
 
What you said didn’t contradict what I said. With an adult, explicit faith is necessary before they can be baptized. In this case, the knowledge preceeds baptism, but it doesn’t come into the intellect through baptism…

So, faith is required for an adult to receive baptism, but the knowledge of the faith does not come into the intellect by baptism, but by “hearing”.
This supports what TobiMex is saying.
If you do not know what I am talking about come down to Mexico and see what is going on!
Many Catholics are never taught about salvation by believing in the Son of God. They don’t understand the gospel.
 
Does not matter distracted. As long as it is through Jesus CHrist. You cannot get to heaven any other way. Jesus Christ is the CC. So if you agree as the scripture tells us that CHrist is united to his CHurch and the 2 become one you will agree. No salvation outside of the CC.
your view is not clear to me…

a person who is Cathoic will get to Heaven even if he is not a formal member of the Church…

i have met Protestants who were more Ctholic than some Cthoics i know… which i agree isn’t saying a whole lot…
 
Another thing and a question.

I have wondered why your website does have those Mary photos all over…does that not show the real end of roman catholic faith? I do not want to talk about, the first miracle and so on… you know, that is what all catholics always come up with. I know it. I have discussed it. Nowhere in the Bible and none of the Apostles has believed that. There are other doctrines about her, that take people away from salvation because of adoring other Gods like she es. If you do not know what I am talking about come down to Mexico and see what is going on!
Mary brings me closer to God… and no Catholic worships Mary that i know of… and even if a Catholic focused more on Mary than on God… which would probably just be a temrporary fixation … that person is still worshipping God becasue God created Mary and created her sinless… She was the new ark of the Covenant who “housed” Jesus Christ himself (God)… In the OT the ark of the C was where god visited his poeple… like the Real Presnce in God’s Church today… There 24/7
 
to focus on Mary is to focus on the Church is to focus on Christ.

as one (or more) saints said… The Church IS Jesus…

(the Real Presence)
 
Unbaptised heathens also have that same experience so it’s not the early baptism that brings them to God. It is God Himself in both situations.

Come to New York. They’re everywhere. Some people are enjoying this life apart from God because they can do whatever they want without guilt.
How do you know? Again do you claim to know what’s deep in anothers heart. You have no answered that question.
 
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