Is there salvation outside of the Church?

[Akini]

Popes do make mistakes, afterall they are human beings. The question is this, if there is also salvation outside the Catholic Church, then can we perhaps conclude that the Catholic Church is not the true Church that Jesus founded as she always professes in the Apostolic Creed?

Secondly, our latest popes have been seen (at least from numerous TV stories) taking part in non-catholic prayers. For example, the current Pope was seen praying (facing Mecca) like a Muslim on November 30 2006. Also, read his book - “God and the World”, 2000, p 209. It is appalling to say the least. It is equally disturbing to see our pope actively taking part in a Jewish synagogue in Germany on August 19 2005.

It makes me wonder why the so-called successor of St. Peter taking part in such prayers when these religions deny that Jesus Christ is God.

I wonder why?

Akini

 

[Filius_Prodigus]

I detect a common refrain among some posters - that the Catholic Church is widely hated. Now, that may be true among atheists and other anti-clerical people, but I don’t find it common among Protestants. Most of us regard Catholicism as a different branch of Christianity, the largest in terms of membership, although huge numbers claimed by the Catholic Church are not practicing Catholics. I don’t have the figures from the Catholic Almanac at my fingertips, but the % of Catholics claimed in such countries as today’s Italy, Spain, Quebec, and certain Latin American countries is far more than actually are there. In Quebec, for example, where practicing Catholics were 90% of the population 50 years ago, secularism and considerable backlash against Catholicism is obvious. About 7-10% of the population now attends mass.

Protestants generally take issue, of course, with the Catholic Church. Mainline Protestants may differ more than others when it comes to doctrines and practices, perhaps, but they are inclined to be more ecumenical. (I am one of these.) They are more tolerant toward the faiths of others, Christian or otherwise. Evangelical and especially fundamentalist Protestants share more with Catholicism in some doctrinal areas (the Virgin Birth, for example), and also on some moral issues (such as abortion, although mainline Protestants divide on this issue). Yet, they are more dogmatic and would criticize Catholicism quite strongly when it comes to Mariology, communion, the papacy, confession to a priest, the saints, etc. My educated guess, by the way, would be that a higher percentage of fundamentalist Protestants would oppose abortion under all circumstances than Catholics.  

  Now, as to the topic of this thread, **I'll let God decide who is saved**. If I were a betting person, I would bet my home that religious affiliation and doctrine will not play much of a role. When Christ was asked how to inherit eternal life, he had a perfect opportunity to expound on doctrine. Instead, he told the parable of the Good Samaritan. Samaritans, of course, were despised by the Jews because they had intermarried and had departed from the Jewish faith. That says a whole lot to me. It says that we won't be judged so much by our religious affiliation as by our love of God and of one another.

 God bless Christians, Jews, Muslims, and those of every creed, color and country. May religion become a bridge and not a barrier.

I side with the RCC naturally, but may ecumenism and LOVE in big capital letters, be our goal.

Our divisions are the consequence of the sins of others long gone. We had nothing to do with it. Let’s love each other as brothers, instead of imitating those that left us division and confusion as our common inheritence.

 

[TobiMex]

Akini, I can tell you why the pope takes part in the rituals of other religions and prays in Mecca, kisses the Muslims book, does all kinds of other things that are not biblical in the sense of denouncing false doctrines. (Well, thats anyway another part, because then he should denounce his own teachings).

That is because he does not even believe his own faith and thus drives Catholics more and more away from the bible and the biblical belief in the truth that is Jesus Christ. Unfortunately that is what is done also by their belief in sacraments which are works done in the flesh. Who would for example really believe that this thing that eat really is transformed in the flesh of Jesus and can save a soul. That is just false along with the other doctrines, the ones by which they say that a Catholic will be saved. It is a big lie.

Apart from that the RCC does everything in the name of ecumenism (not only them I have to say, also many Protestant and other churches do that), which is an effort supported by the devil himself. The apostle Paul says we have to denounce the wrong beliefs and be apart from them. The funny thing is that the RCC says they do follow the teachings of teh apostles. Sorry but thats a big lie too. Read your bible my Catholic friends!

Another lie that is around is that fundamentalism is wrong, well I ask you then, what was Jesus? Not a fundamentalist? He went against practically all beliefs and works that were done by the Jews at that time. One has to be careful in what you take part in. Also the bible states, actually the apostle Peter says that in his first card. A friend of the world is an enemy of God. So how can one take part in all the secular festivities, like Helloween, like Day of the dead (here in Mexico), Carnaval (in Germany e.g.). all these things are never denounced by the RCC!!! NEVER! So how is that with following the Apostles teachings?? Instead praying to them thats what it means for the RCC to accept their teachings. Thats really funny for me, but sad due to the fact that simple church goers, of course without themselves examining the scriptures (another Apostolic teaching) believe all that blind.

A final point, ecumenism, as the one world religion based on love will never work out, apart from being a false doctrine, because it is and can never be built on the one rock that is Jesus Christ ONLY. No other Gods, not other Prophets apart from the biblical ones, one gospel, one faith. Thats biblical my friends and apostolic teachings.

" 2.Timothy 4,2: Preach the word; be instant in season, out of season; reprove, rebuke, exhort with all long suffering and doctrine. "

 

[chrisb]

Owe no man any thing, but to love one another: for he that loveth another hath fulfilled the law. ~ Rom 13:8

 

[Roy5]

Amen! to those who put love at the top of their list of spiritual insights and obligations. I am a rather free-thinking Protestant, frankly, but I do not share the hostility certain Protestants (usually fundamentalists) feel toward Catholicism. Most of us were born into our faith community and follow the road we were raised to travel. I am not denominational-minded - have been active in Methodist, Presbyterian and Congregational churches as we moved from place to place - and theological differences are secondary to me. Really, who knows? We live in a huge, complex. marvelous and mysterious universe.

  Now, I certainly don't know all the facts about contemporary Popes and other religions. When visiting a post-Vatican II splinter from Catholicism in Colorado, I was surprised to be shown a picture of the Pope kissing a Koran. The 'priest' was saying that the historic Papacy has been essentially betrayed and hence vacated since Vatican II.  Whether it was an authentic photo I had no way of knowing. It's easy to provide fake documentation these days.  I did not approve of kissing the Koran=, but I do not know all the circumstances, and I certainly do salute Popes who work for better understanding among different faiths. (Subtle, deliberate sheep-stealing is another rmatter for another thread?)  Religion certainly should be a bridge and not a barrier. Isn't it outrageous that so much killing over the centuries - in wars, of heretics, by fanatics - has been done in the name of God!  I'm sure that Christ must keep repeating: "Why do you call me, Lord, Lord, and do not the things that I say?!"

    I especially admire Quakers, Mennonites and other faith groups who take the Sermon on the Mount seriously. "Ye have heard it said, Thou shalt not kill, but I say unto you...." Or, "Ye have heard it said, love your neighbor but hate your enemy, but I say unto you...." Perhaps it's time for Christians to stop petty criticism of one another and pay more attention to the words of Jesus. That might help all of us get to heaven! 

    God bless people of every creed, color and country.

 

[rinnie]

This is no salvation outside of the CC. It is impossible.

Because Jesus Christ is the RCC.

To say that there is salvation outside of the CC is to say that there is salvation outside Jesus Christ. I can’t happen, its impossible.

All faith comes from Jesus Christ, on this I believe we can all agree. All faith stem through the teachings of Jesus Christ and the Apostles teachings. Again all can be found and started in the CC.

 

[StillWondering]

“So then, brethren, stand firm and hold to the traditions which you were taught, whether by word of mouth or by letter from us.”

Good verse, but not good at all to support the RCC point of view. Paul does not say here that you should keep the heretic traditions of the Roman Catholic Church, but the TRADITION OF THE APOSLES, which is actually what is written down in the epistles, which is the Gospel, the Good News, Salvation in Christ through his blood.

The RCC is just doing the same than jewish pharisees by exalting their traditions more than Scripture.

And if there is the one faith. Why does the pope kiss the “holy” book of the muslims???

And why am I a hypocrit saying that good works dont save, the only work that has been done by God which is the Death of Jesus on the Cross will save me. God forbid that I would ever believe in my own power to save me or the power of a church to save me. Evangelics do not preach that, because it is just wrong. The pope making himself God by saying his is infallible is a huge sin, but he will have to stand before God, telling him that, so that will be a bad day for him. Better dont trust in yourselves as good, noone is good just God alone, to quote the words of the Lord and Saviour.

If you look at history you will see why the Pharisees are in error. The original law given by Moses was modified over time and 700 years after it was first establish there were a great deal of additions that much of the original meaning gets lost if you do not know which are additions and which are original. You are not even suggesting that the RCC is doing this. You are just suggested the RCC is ritualistic.

If you think the Pope claims to be God, you are quite brainwashed. Check what the RCC teaches and you will see that Pope infallibility comes from when he teaches on morals and doctrines and it is due to the power of the Holy Spirit. Anything else the pope does, he is quite responsible. If you look at the life of Pope John Paul II or Pope Benedict XVI you will see humble and Christ loving men.

One more thing. The Ark of Salvation, how could that ever be a Church??? I would never say that anyone could be save by a church or by going to a church! Once again, those are things done in ones flesh, friends.

The Ark of Salvation has always, is and will always be the Lord Jesus Christ!!! From the beginning God has always saved people in his Holy Word because of their Faith and Trust in him. That is made so clearly in the letter to the Hebrews!

Dont loose yourselves believing that an institution could save you!!!

An art is a boat. Try to imagine that in this boat is a lot of people being sailed to safety and Jesus is the captain. The Church, since it was instituted by Christ for the salvation of mankind, acts in this analogy as the Ark in your post. One thing that may be enlightening for you is that there are monasteries and convents in the Catholic Church where monks and nuns as their charism to serve the Lord is solely focused on prayers and penances for humanity. I always think about this in my daily sinful life.

Friends, how could sacraments o rituals save anybody?
That cant be what you are believing, can it?

Do you really think eating a food “sactified” by the RCC could save you?
Do you really think baptism as a ritual will save you?
Do you really thin the virgin Mary has anything to do with salvation?
Do you really think praying the Rosary will change anything?
Do you really think any other ritual done by you will save you?

Come on, Jesus was speaking metaphorically of those things. He didnt say do step 1, 2 and 3 and then you are saved. The real salvation comes from your heart, and from your heart alone. Why should the LORD care about something we do in our flesh.

Remember: It is necessary for you to be born again and that is: Trust the Lord for your Salvation. Nothing done in the flesh can please him. Read the Gospel of John!

It’s clear form your posts that you simply do not understand what the Church teaches and what Sacraments are. You use terms such as “these rituals” or “a ritual”. Christ uses mud and spit to cure the blind man. Is this a “ritual” by your understanding. It is not that anything we do is magical. It is simply because Christ told us what to do and we do it “sins you forgiven are forgiven and sins you bound are bound” and “baptized all nations in the name of the Father, name of the Son, and name of the Holy Spirit”. Or how about he breath on them and their minds open. Or the Apostles lay hands on the deacons such as Saint Stephan (the first Christian Martyr who is found in the Acts of the Apostle). What were these biblical figures doing? I hope you don’t mean Christ is a magician or a fake. I know you do not but if you look at what you are saying carefully you will see that either you are or you do not know what the Church teaches.

---

Last comment, In Matthew Chapter 7, you will see a passage where Christ spoke about those who will say “Lord, Lord …did we not…” and Christ will respond “I do not know you”. The Apostles then ask, who will be saved then? Jesus told them simple, “those who do my Father’s will”. If you go through the Scriptures you will see plenty of times where God tells us to take this action or that. Following Christ is not a *passive *“YES, I believe” and that’s it. Christ told us those who love him follow his commandments. And lastly, Christ tells us to “carry our cross, and follow him”. Christian means they are follower of Christ. Are you carrying your cross, following his commandments, and believe all he teaches?

 

[StillWondering]

If you assume that Christ’s Church is the human institution you choose to belong to. Now you’ve already interjected a stretch on logic that you can somehow map Christ’s Church to the RCC, rather than see that Christ’s Church, which is not an institution, is so much larger than it seems.

I’m glad you agree with those scriptural passages. The modern terms refering to those are Real Presence, Absolution, and Sacred Tradition.

Now for that quoted portion of your post, you can see that there really was a Church back in the day not, some random dispersion of believers. There are documents and records. What we see in the bible are only some of the documents being passed around. The Apostles worked as a united group going from one place to another to teach. They sent letters and received letters from each other and from the community. Such as 1 Corinthians or other letters form Saint Paul are mostly teachings and responses to letters he received. If you do not recognized that some portions of each letter he wrote has responses to questions raised by the community you are only getting have of the picture. Imagine being next to a person on the phone. If you are interested to know what the person is talking about after they get off the phone you’ll ask them about the other half of the conversation. Saint Paul is not sitting next to you for you to ask and she did not repeat everything that was asked simply because these were direct letters to the community who asked the questions.

How do you figure out the missing pieces and see the whole picture? Well you need a living voice for the early Christian community. This voice is embodied in the collective organization of bishops throughout the Roman Empire and beyond.

 

[StillWondering]

That is because he does not even believe his own faith and thus drives Catholics more and more away from the bible and the biblical belief in the truth that is Jesus Christ. Unfortunately that is what is done also by their belief in sacraments which are works done in the flesh. Who would for example really believe that this thing that eat really is transformed in the flesh of Jesus and can save a soul. That is just false along with the other doctrines, the ones by which they say that a Catholic will be saved. It is a big lie.

This is an opinion and if taken literally is a lie. I’m pretty sure the Popes you are referring to completely believe in what the Catholic Church teaches. Read some of JPII writings where he talks about the one true faith and reasserts that there is no salvation outside of the Catholic Church. This means he believes the Catholic Church to be the one founded by Christ and that if the Church does not exists, mankind cannot be saved.

 

[chrisb]

This is an opinion and if taken literally is a lie. I’m pretty sure the Popes you are referring to completely believe in what the Catholic Church teaches. Read some of JPII writings where he talks about the one true faith and reasserts that there is no salvation outside of the Catholic Church. This means he believes the Catholic Church to be the one founded by Christ and that if the Church does not exists, mankind cannot be saved.

Translated, the Popes can know they are right without mashing noses with it.

 

[distracted]

Popes do make mistakes, afterall they are human beings. The question is this, if there is also salvation outside the Catholic Church, then can we perhaps conclude that the Catholic Church is not the true Church that Jesus founded as she always professes in the Apostolic Creed?

Secondly, our latest popes have been seen (at least from numerous TV stories) taking part in non-catholic prayers. For example, the current Pope was seen praying (facing Mecca) like a Muslim on November 30 2006. Also, read his book - “God and the World”, 2000, p 209. It is appalling to say the least. It is equally disturbing to see our pope actively taking part in a Jewish synagogue in Germany on August 19 2005.

It makes me wonder why the so-called successor of St. Peter taking part in such prayers when these religions deny that Jesus Christ is God.

I wonder why?

Akini

i think he is trying to get them to see the goodness of Catholicism… If he is open to them maybe they will be open to him and then to the Church as well ?? i hope that’s what the deal is…

 

[distracted]

This is no salvation outside of the CC. It is impossible.

Because Jesus Christ is the RCC.

To say that there is salvation outside of the CC is to say that there is salvation outside Jesus Christ. I can’t happen, its impossible.

All faith comes from Jesus Christ, on this I believe we can all agree. All faith stem through the teachings of Jesus Christ and the Apostles teachings. Again all can be found and started in the CC.

are you saying no one oiutside the Church makes it to Heavne??

 

[distracted]

Akini, I can tell you why the pope takes part in the rituals of other religions and prays in Mecca, kisses the Muslims book, does all kinds of other things that are not biblical in the sense of denouncing false doctrines. (Well, thats anyway another part, because then he should denounce his own teachings).

i can see where you would think this and i have wondered about and still do… however, the pope is wiser than most… He is probably just trying to bring people into the church or at least get them to see that Catholicism is a good thing…

o
That is because he does not even believe his own faith and thus drives Catholics more and more away from the bible and the biblical belief in the truth that is Jesus Christ. Unfortunately that is what is done also by their belief in sacraments which are works done in the flesh.

this is not so and only a non-Catholic could say such a thing… Transubstantiation is VERY biblical and NOT believing in it is NOT biblical… Ever read John 6??

y Who would for example really believe that this thing that eat really is transformed in the flesh of Jesus and can save a soul. That is just false along with the other doctrines, the ones by which they say that a Catholic will be saved. It is a big lie.

be careful what you speak against. even tho you may be ingorant it is not good to speak against Christ and his Church like htis… Cathlics live longer than protestants… I believe the Eucharist is the reason…

 

[truevaticanii]

"The answer: Yes and no??? This is a complex question. I suggest you read the first and possibly second documents from EWTN, lited below. After reading them, you may consider reading my thoughts.

ewtn.com/faith/teachings/chura5.htm

ewtn.com/expert/answers/outside_the_church.htm

Thus, you must be a Catholic in order to receive grace of salvation, yet there are some who–by no fault of their own–are unable to see the Truth. But, they follow natural law, and they do their best to seek the Truth. They are like Catholics who are unsure of what the Truth is within the Church, so they keep searching for the answer (the only difference is that we are Catholic. I have less searching to do because I was raised Catholic, and so all that I have to do is find the Truth within the Church where people have confused the teachings in what they try to “teach” about the faith. The others though, are Catholic in a spiritual sense, the Holy Spirit keeps guiding them in their ignorance, and eventually they will become Catholic unless they die before baptism or before they can finally reach the Truth within the Catholic Church. These people are then possibly Baptized by desire, or if they are Christians, they are perhaps baptized in a Christian denomination, while they are truly still searching for the Truth within their church. The next step for them is to look into all Christian teachings, and to limit that down to the True teachings found in the Catholic Church. Now, if you were responsible for your rejecting of the fullness of Truth (which we strive to come to in Catholicism), then you are separate from Catholicism, thus you are unable to come to salvation. That is my understanding of it all. However, we must remember that we can never know whether or not someone is responsible for their rejection of the Truth in Catholicism–only God knows, for Jesus is the only one who knows the state of that soul. Those who, by no fault of their own are not raised Catholic, and are unable to get to the more full Truth found in Catholicism before death, yet they seek the Truth and live by natural law are Catholics in their hearts; they just didn’t become Catholics through the visible Church (ie., they weren’t Confirmed by a Catholic priest/bishop), yet they likely would have been Confirmed by a Catholic priest/bishop (had they been able to live longer) ARE members of the Body of Christ that is the Church–the One Holy Catholic and Apostolic Church–in their hearts. Also, it is likely that they will see the Truth in the Catholic Church even in the very moment before they die. They are like Catholic children who are baptized in the Church, but they have not yet reached the age of reason… or something along those lines. Some are perhaps like the little children who were to be baptized one day, but they died before they were able to be. This is how I read these documents.

Pax Domini Vobiscum."

• truevaticanii.stblogs.com/2009/08/21/must-i-be-a-catholic-for-salvation/

^ my blog

This IS what the Church teaches… period.

 

[chrisb]

are you saying no one oiutside the Church makes it to Heavne??

Grace and Peace,

This whole thread is a straw man. Most know the teaching of the Catholic Church regarding this idea… Why are we rehashing this?

 

[VerumAdInfernos]

Akini, I can tell you why the pope takes part in the rituals of other religions and prays in Mecca, kisses the Muslims book, does all kinds of other things that are not biblical in the sense of denouncing false doctrines. (Well, thats anyway another part, because then he should denounce his own teachings).

That is because he does not even believe his own faith and thus drives Catholics more and more away from the bible and the biblical belief in the truth that is Jesus Christ. Unfortunately that is what is done also by their belief in sacraments which are works done in the flesh. Who would for example really believe that this thing that eat really is transformed in the flesh of Jesus and can save a soul. That is just false along with the other doctrines, the ones by which they say that a Catholic will be saved. It is a big lie.

Apart from that the RCC does everything in the name of ecumenism (not only them I have to say, also many Protestant and other churches do that), which is an effort supported by the devil himself. The apostle Paul says we have to denounce the wrong beliefs and be apart from them. The funny thing is that the RCC says they do follow the teachings of teh apostles. Sorry but thats a big lie too. Read your bible my Catholic friends!

Another lie that is around is that fundamentalism is wrong, well I ask you then, what was Jesus? Not a fundamentalist? He went against practically all beliefs and works that were done by the Jews at that time. One has to be careful in what you take part in. Also the bible states, actually the apostle Peter says that in his first card. A friend of the world is an enemy of God. So how can one take part in all the secular festivities, like Helloween, like Day of the dead (here in Mexico), Carnaval (in Germany e.g.). all these things are never denounced by the RCC!!! NEVER! So how is that with following the Apostles teachings?? Instead praying to them thats what it means for the RCC to accept their teachings. Thats really funny for me, but sad due to the fact that simple church goers, of course without themselves examining the scriptures (another Apostolic teaching) believe all that blind.

A final point, ecumenism, as the one world religion based on love will never work out, apart from being a false doctrine, because it is and can never be built on the one rock that is Jesus Christ ONLY. No other Gods, not other Prophets apart from the biblical ones, one gospel, one faith. Thats biblical my friends and apostolic teachings.

" 2.Timothy 4,2: Preach the word; be instant in season, out of season; reprove, rebuke, exhort with all long suffering and doctrine. "

::Sigh:: So sad, of all the posts on this thread and forum, this information is not scholarly let alone even correct. And it is Protestants like you who I truly worry about. This is a prime example of the Protestant=Heretic thread, this is a prime example of a Traditionalist Catholic viewpoint that some people seem virtually unsaveable from the fires of hell. Pope’s are human and can err, but Amen I say to you as who was the FIRST Protestant. Anyone ever heard the name,…Satan? He protested the Church of God, and look what happened to him. You want a Catholic that doesn’t believe in ecumenism? You got it right here, and further I challenge you that you know nary a thing about the Catholic Church. As you refer to it as the RCC. The Roman Catholic Church is not the WHOLE Catholic Church only a part of it. Sure we Byzantines submit to and accept the doctrine of successors of Peter, but you don’t have snuff on Orthodox of Eastern Rite Churches. In 90% of arguments with Protestants they will lose against an Orthodox or Eastern Rite Catholic because you can’t slander us in all the Church scandal involving Priests (which is a horribly weak and non-scholarly argument anyway), you can’t deny our practices of Faith, and we have held fast to Christian tradition since 300 A.D the founding of Christs organized Church. And actually Halloween has been denounced by the Catholic Church, as they have created all Saints day to eclipse the pagan holiday created by the druids that started in Ireland. See this is why you really should refrain from posting unless you are going to post accurate information it really makes you and your Protestant brethren look well,…bad. If you want a serious discussion sources and all about REAL history, and the Church, let me know. Take my hand? Come swim the Tiber?

 

[rinnie]

are you saying no one oiutside the Church makes it to Heavne??

Yep. Jesus said it too. No one come to the Father except through me. We know from scripture that Jesus Christ is the CHurch, he and the CHurch are one. And there is no salvation outside of Jesus CHrist. So it ties in together. There is no salvation outside of the CC. So yes that is what I mean.

 

[Lutheranteach]

Is their salvation outside the church? How are you defining church? Are we talking the Catholic Church or the catholic church. If you are asking if there is salvation outside what has become known as the Roman Catholic Church, than I say yes, absolutely.

 

[rinnie]

Is their salvation outside the church? How are you defining church? Are we talking the Catholic Church or the catholic church. If you are asking if there is salvation outside what has become known as the Roman Catholic Church, than I say yes, absolutely.

See myself personally I do not understand the difference. There is only ONE HOLY CATHOLIC APOSTOLC CHURCH. THis CC or cc I do not understand. I never have. THe little c big C. Could someone show me Traditon or Scripture for that. If so to me it does not exist. And I will go with the word of God. There is only ONE CC.

 

[Lutheranteach]

catholic= universal
Catholic= Roman Catholic Church

While I say the Apostles creed in a Lutheran Church on Sunday it includes “…one holy catholic and apostolic church” it does not mean the Roman Catholic Church