R
ron77nyc
Guest
There is a very obvious contradiction. Jews, Muslims, pagans and Protestants were at one time in Church history excluded from salvation. Today they are included. What’s so hard about that?
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D
distracted
Guest
where does it say they are included???There is a very obvious contradiction. Jews, Muslims, pagans and Protestants were at one time in Church history excluded from salvation. Today they are included. What’s so hard about that?
U
Ultima_Ratio
Guest
No one who dies as a Jew, or a Mulsim, or a Protestant, or an Orthodox, will be saved. Without any doubt at all they will all go to hell.There is a very obvious contradiction. Jews, Muslims, pagans and Protestants were at one time in Church history excluded from salvation. Today they are included. What’s so hard about that?
Now, what is possible is that a person who is a Protestant, or Jew, or Muslim, etc, according to what is called the external forum, could possibly die as a Catholic according to the internal forum, and thereby be saved.
It is not correct to say that Protestants are members of the Church; but it is correct to say that it might be possible for a Protestant to be united to the Church according to the internal forum, even though they are not united to the Church according to the external forum - and it is union with the Church on the internal forum that saves.
It is also possible (and actually likely today) that some Catholics are united to the Church according to the external forum, but not according to the internal forum. This is the case, for example, with a Catholic who denies a dogma of the faith. Even though they are sill visible members of the Church - the external forum - they are cut off from the “soul” of the Church - the internal forum.
Objectively speaking, a person must be a member of the Catholic Church to be saved. Subjectively, it is within the realm of possibility that a person, who is not a formal member of the Church, can be united to the Church and thereby attain salvation.
Up until Vatican II the Church focused almost exclusively on the objective truth (that a man must belong to the Church to be saved), and only referred to the possible “exceptions” in passing. Since Vatican II, however, the focus has been shifted to the possible “exceptions”, to the exclusion of the rule.
This has resulted in a lot of confusion among the faithful. It appears to some that the Church has changed its teaching, when in reality the teaching is irreformable. Another problem with the shift in emphasis from the rule to the exception is that it has resulted in a general watering down of the dogma in the minds of many. Today, many Catholics are under the impression that being a formal member of the Church is really not that important as long as the non-Catholic is doing their best. The reality is that not being a formal member of the Church almost certainly means eternal damnation.
R
ron77nyc
Guest
The catechism on Jews, Muslims and Protestantswhere does it say they are included???
839 "Those who have not yet received the Gospel are related to the People of God in various ways."325
The relationship of the Church with the Jewish People. When she delves into her own mystery, the Church, the People of God in the New Covenant, discovers her link with the Jewish People,326 "the first to hear the Word of God."327 The Jewish faith, unlike other non-Christian religions, is already a response to God’s revelation in the Old Covenant.** To the Jews “belong the sonship, the glory, the covenants, the giving of the law, the worship, and the promises;** to them belong the patriarchs, and of their race, according to the flesh, is the Christ”,328 "for the gifts and the call of God are irrevocable."329
841 The Church’s relationship with the Muslims. "The plan of salvation also includes those who acknowledge the Creator, in the first place amongst whom are the Muslims; these profess to hold the faith of Abraham, and together with us they adore the one, merciful God, mankind’s judge on the last day."330
842 The Church’s bond with non-Christian religions is in the first place the common origin and end of the human race:
All nations form but one community. This is so because all stem from the one stock which God created to people the entire earth, and also because all share a common destiny, namely God. His providence, evident goodness, and saving designs extend to all against the day when the elect are gathered together in the holy city. . .331
848 "Although in ways known to himself God can lead those who, through no fault of their own, are ignorant of the Gospel, to that faith without which it is impossible to please him, the Church still has the obligation and also the sacred right to evangelize all men."338
Popes Boniface, Eugene and Pius XI on Jews, Muslims and Protestants.These 3 popes are saying something completely different about salvation for non-Catholics.
Pope Boniface VIII in his Papal Bull Unam Sanctam (A.D. 1302): “We declare, say, define, and pronounce that** it is absolutely necessary for the salvation of every human creature to be subject to the Roman Pontiff.” **
Pope Eugene IV and the Council of Florence (A.D. 1438 - 1445): “[The most Holy Roman Church] firmly believes, professes, and proclaims that **those not living within the Catholic Church, not only pagans, but also Jews and heretics and schismatics cannot become participants in eternal life, but will depart `into everlasting fire which was prepared for the devil and his angels’ (Matt. 25:41), unless before the end of life the same have been added to the flock; **and that the unity of the ecclesiastical body is so strong that only to those remaining in it are the sacraments of the Church of benefit for salvation, and do fastings, almsgiving, and other functions of piety and exercises of Christian service produce eternal reward, and that no one, whatever almsgiving he has practiced, even if he has shed blood for the name of Christ, can be saved, unless he has remained in the bosom and unity of the Catholic Church.”
Pope Pius XI (A.D. 1922 - 1939): “The Catholic Church alone is keeping the true worship. This is the font of truth, this is the house of faith, this is the temple of God; if any man enter not here, or if any man go forth from it, he is a stranger to the hope of life and salvation. …Furthermore, in this one Church of Christ, no man can be or remain who does not accept, recognize and obey the authority and supremacy of Peter and his legitimate successors.” (Encyclical, Mortalium Animos)
U
Ultima_Ratio
Guest
I call this Vatican II Newspeak. It communicates to the reader what it doesn’t actually say, thereby leaving a false impression.The catechism on Jews, Muslims and Protestants
839 "Those who have not yet received the Gospel are related to the People of God in various ways."325
The relationship of the Church with the Jewish People. When she delves into her own mystery, the Church, the People of God in the New Covenant, discovers her link with the Jewish People,326 "the first to hear the Word of God."327 The Jewish faith, unlike other non-Christian religions, is already a response to God’s revelation in the Old Covenant.** To the Jews “belong the sonship, the glory, the covenants, the giving of the law, the worship, and the promises;** to them belong the patriarchs, and of their race, according to the flesh, is the Christ”,328 "for the gifts and the call of God are irrevocable."329
Notice what it doesn’t say about the Jews. It doesn’t say they will be saved. It says every positive thing it can about the unbelieving Jews, thereby leaving the impression on some readers that the unbelieving Jews will be saved… without actually saying so.
Once again, all it says is that the plan of salvation includes the Muslims; it doesn’t say one who dies as a Muslim will be saved. The plan of salvation includes everyone, whether he be a Catholic, Muslim of Satanist. Many Muslims and Satanists have converted to the Church and thereby been saved. So it is true to say that the plan of salvation includes everyone, even those who are at this time entangled in the errors of Islam; but it is not true to say tha one who dies as a Mulsim will be saved.841 The Church’s relationship with the Muslims. "The plan of salvation also includes those who acknowledge the Creator, in the first place amongst whom are the Muslims; these profess to hold the faith of Abraham, and together with us they adore the one, merciful God, mankind’s judge on the last day."330
Once again we see many flowery words that don’t say what they appear to say. In fact, what the quote actually says is that God can lead the ignorant “to the faith without which it is impossible to please God”. “The faith” it is referring to is the Catholic Faith, as the Council of Trent teaches.842 The Church’s bond with non-Christian religions is in the first place the common origin and end of the human race:
All nations form but one community. This is so because all stem from the one stock which God created to people the entire earth, and also because all share a common destiny, namely God. **His providence, evident goodness, and saving designs extend to all against the day when the elect are gathered together in the holy city. . .331
848 "Although in ways known to himself God can lead those **who, through no fault of their own, are ignorant of the Gospel, to that faith without which it is impossible to please him, the Church still has the obligation and also the sacred right to evangelize all men."338
Therefore, all that quote is saying is that God can lead unbelievers to the Catholic Faith so that they can be saved.
When reading Vatican II Newspeak, you have to read, not only what it says, but more importantly what it doesn’t say. Or, better yet, read an old Catechism that actually communicates clearly what the Church teaches, rather than leaving a false impression.
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ron77nyc
Guest
What we’ve got here is failure to communicate. The message of salvation from the pre-Vatican II Church was salvation by being Catholic, leaving the impression that if you belonged to the Church, went to Mass on Sunday and confession on Saturday and you didn’t eat meat on Friday, that was good enough. They neglected the gospel message of salvation by faith in Jesus Christ.When reading Vatican II Newspeak, you have to read, not only what it says, but more importantly what it doesn’t say. Or, better yet, read an old Catechism that actually communicates clearly what the Church teaches, rather than leaving a false impression.
S
SemperFidelis
Guest
Fr. Feeney was not excommunicated for his rigorist interpretation of EENS, or for any other doctrinal error. He was reconiciled to the Church in 1972 without recanting anything. His followers are in full communion with the Church and are allowed to hold their position. When Fr. Feeney was reconciled to the Church, this was his recitation:***no pope would take the position of someone who was ex-communicated… ***
Athanasian Creed:
Here’s a good history:Whosoever will be saved, before all things it is necessary that he hold the Catholic faith; Which faith except every one do keep whole and undefiled, without doubt he shall perish everlastingly.
saintbenedict.com/publications/fr_feeney_history.php
By the way, I’m not a “Feeneyite,” I just recognize the legitimacy that Catholics are allowed in holding the so called “rigorist” interpretation, and am open to it myself.
U
Ultima_Ratio
Guest
What makes you say that? The pre-Vatican II Catechisms clearly explain all that is required for salvation. Catholics in those days weren’t led to believe they would go to heaven simply because they were members of the Catholic Church;, but rather that non-Catholics would not be saved since there is no salvation outside the Catholic Church.What we’ve got here is failure to communicate. The message of salvation from the pre-Vatican II Church was salvation by being Catholic, leaving the impression that if you belonged to the Church, went to Mass on Sunday and confession on Saturday and you didn’t eat meat on Friday, that was good enough. They neglected the gospel message of salvation by faith in Jesus Christ.
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ron77nyc
Guest
Baptism, confession, the eucharist, abstaining from meat when required and obedience to the pope among other Catholic doctrines are emphasized with clarity but actual belief in the resurrection of Jesus is a side issue for being Catholic. It’s like: Oh yeah, that’s important too.What makes you say that? The pre-Vatican II Catechisms clearly explain all that is required for salvation. Catholics in those days weren’t led to believe they would go to heaven simply because they were members of the Catholic Church;, but rather that non-Catholics would not be saved since there is no salvation outside the Catholic Church.
Faith in the resurrection should be first and most important. If you are a Catholic who doesn’t believe in Jesus Christ and all that He said and did then you won’t be included among those who are saved no matter how hard you try to obey the Church. Why don’t you ever hear that message at Mass or when the pope comes to New York?
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Ultima_Ratio
Guest
Faith in the resurrection of Jesus is a basic doctrine that everyone knows. It is not as though Catholics were never taught this basic doctrine. And why would you mention faith in the resurrection over faith in the Divinity of Jesus? All doctrines are important and must be believed. Some doctrines require greater explanation to be understood, but not the resurrection. It is really quite simple. Jesus rose again from the dead on Easter Sunday. Everyone knows that. It is basic. Heck, even the heretics believe that doctrine.Baptism, confession, the eucharist, abstaining from meat when required and obedience to the pope among other Catholic doctrines are emphasized with clarity but actual belief in the resurrection of Jesus is a side issue for being Catholic. It’s like: Oh yeah, that’s important too.
Faith in the resurrection should be first and most important. If you are a Catholic who doesn’t believe in Jesus Christ and all that He said and did then you won’t be included among those who are saved no matter how hard you try to obey the Church. Why don’t you ever hear that message at Mass or when the pope comes to New York?/
Emphasis is placed where it needs to be placed. Since the Eucharist is Jesus Christ in person, it makes sense that emphasis would be placed on Him in the Eucharist. Since people have a fallen nature and fall into sin from time to time, it is necessary that confession be emphasized so that they can get back into the state of grace, since without grace in the soul faith in Jesus Christ and in His resurrection will not save. Regarding abstaining from meat: I doubt this was a great topic of catechesis since it was a given for Catholics. All Catholics abstained from meat on Friday because that is what Catholics did.
B
Breviarylover
Guest
View these links:Hey all,
This Friday I’m giving a talk on the question ‘Is there salvation outside of the Church?’ I was wondering if anyone could recommend some literature for me to read up on (besides the catechism) the writings of Church Fathers and Saints would be preferable.
The point of the talk is to allow young Catholics (18-21 mostly) to discuss their point of views whilst ultimately being led to an understanding of the Church’s teaching on the issue. Any advice at all would be most welcome.
Thanks in advance,
Jonny
forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?t=339653&highlight=Is+there+salvation+outside+of+the+Church
ewtn.com/expert/answers/outside_the_church.htm
ewtn.com/library/SCRIPTUR/OUTSID.TXT
R
ron77nyc
Guest
Everyone was taught about Jesus and he is often spoken of but how many Catholics actually know that their salvation begins with belief in the resurrection of Jesus and without that belief no one will be saved?Faith in the resurrection of Jesus is a basic doctrine that everyone knows.
Mark 16:16 “He who has believed and has been baptized shall be saved; but he who has disbelieved shall be condemned.”
This is the gospel message. “All who are Catholic will be saved” is not the same thing.
V
VerumAdInfernos
Guest
I do not feel like citing the Catechism on it at this point but I will if I must. When the CCD is talking about “invincible” ignorance, it is DEFINITELY not meaning Protestant Christians. While I fully realize there is brainwashing, look at that Ron just stated. As a Catholic how can you say that Ron? THat passage speaks volumes he is Baptized shall be saved, OK so it washes all Sin, got it, great. But if he doesn’t believe in Christ or the Bride of Christ, he will be condemned, end of story. I am not saying they are damned to Hell, but being Protestant and NOT Catholic is a strike against a soul at judgment end of story.Everyone was taught about Jesus and he is often spoken of but how many Catholics actually know that their salvation begins with belief in the resurrection of Jesus and without that belief no one will be saved?
Mark 16:16 “He who has believed and has been baptized shall be saved; but he who has disbelieved shall be condemned.”
This is the gospel message. “All who are Catholic will be saved” is not the same thing.
R
ron77nyc
Guest
Who is talking about Protestants? I’m talking about Catholics who were baptised and confirmed and have no faith in Jesus. Faith is not something the Church can give you at baptism. It comes from God Himself and each individual has to make his or her own decision.I do not feel like citing the Catechism on it at this point but I will if I must. When the CCD is talking about “invincible” ignorance, it is DEFINITELY not meaning Protestant Christians. While I fully realize there is brainwashing, look at that Ron just stated. As a Catholic how can you say that Ron? THat passage speaks volumes he is Baptized shall be saved, OK so it washes all Sin, got it, great. But if he doesn’t believe in Christ or the Bride of Christ, he will be condemned, end of story. I am not saying they are damned to Hell, but being Protestant and NOT Catholic is a strike against a soul at judgment end of story.
John 6:44 “No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws him, and I will raise him up at the last day. 45 It is written in the Prophets: ‘They will all be taught by God. Everyone who listens to the Father and learns from him comes to me.’"
If a non-Catholic believes in Jesus I would say that person has a better chance of being saved than someone who has heard the gospel and refuses to believe.
**Galatians 5:6 For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision nor uncircumcision has any value. The only thing that counts is faith expressing itself through love. **
Galatians 3:26 You are all sons of God through faith in Christ Jesus, 27for all of you who were baptized into Christ have clothed yourselves with Christ. 28There is neither Jew nor Greek, slave nor free, male nor female, for you are all one in Christ Jesus. 29If you belong to Christ, then you are Abraham’s seed, and heirs according to the promise.
V
VerumAdInfernos
Guest
Right, we agree I think. That’s our point, especially with the Protestants. They who hear the truth from a nifty little Apologist such as me wee Irish self, then deny that truth are sitting in hot water. God is bringing the message of truth to them. All you can really say is that person you hypothetically mentioned “has a better chance” but it’s safer to presume that chance is not to be trifled with. Thus, there is no salvation outside the Church, circumstances in CCC mitigating.
B
baylee
Guest
Interesting. I have a couple of questions:No one who dies as a Jew, or a Mulsim, or a Protestant, or an Orthodox, will be saved. Without any doubt at all they will all go to hell.
Now, what is possible is that a person who is a Protestant, or Jew, or Muslim, etc, according to what is called the external forum, could possibly die as a Catholic according to the internal forum, and thereby be saved.
It is not correct to say that Protestants are members of the Church; but it is correct to say that it might be possible for a Protestant to be united to the Church according to the internal forum, even though they are not united to the Church according to the external forum - and it is union with the Church on the internal forum that saves.
It is also possible (and actually likely today) that some Catholics are united to the Church according to the external forum, but not according to the internal forum. This is the case, for example, with a Catholic who denies a dogma of the faith. Even though they are sill visible members of the Church - the external forum - they are cut off from the “soul” of the Church - the internal forum.
Objectively speaking, a person must be a member of the Catholic Church to be saved. Subjectively, it is within the realm of possibility that a person, who is not a formal member of the Church, can be united to the Church and thereby attain salvation.
Up until Vatican II the Church focused almost exclusively on the objective truth (that a man must belong to the Church to be saved), and only referred to the possible “exceptions” in passing. Since Vatican II, however, the focus has been shifted to the possible “exceptions”, to the exclusion of the rule.
This has resulted in a lot of confusion among the faithful. It appears to some that the Church has changed its teaching, when in reality the teaching is irreformable. Another problem with the shift in emphasis from the rule to the exception is that it has resulted in a general watering down of the dogma in the minds of many. Today, many Catholics are under the impression that being a formal member of the Church is really not that important as long as the non-Catholic is doing their best. The reality is that not being a formal member of the Church almost certainly means eternal damnation.
(1) Where did you get the internal vs external forum doctrine (?) from?
(2) Can you give a concrete example of how a non-Catholic could be saved via the Catholic Church in the internal forum? This is of extreme importance to me since my family is Jewish.
Thank you.
U
Ultima_Ratio
Guest
Regarding the first question, this is a common term used by the Church. Here’s a quote from the Catholic encyclopedia discussing this subject:Interesting. I have a couple of questions:
(1) Where did you get the internal vs external forum doctrine (?) from?
(2) Can you give a concrete example of how a non-Catholic could be saved via the Catholic Church in the internal forum? This is of extreme importance to me since my family is Jewish.
Thank you.
Catholic Encyclopedia: "That the Church of Christ has judicial and coercive power is plain from the constitution given to it by its Divine Founder. This judicial jurisdiction is expressed by the word Forum, the Latin designation for a place containing a tribunal of justice…
As the power of the Church extends not only to its individual members but also to the whole corporate body, not only to questions concerning the conscience but also to the public actions of its subjects, ecclesiastical jurisdiction is distinguished into that of the internal and external forum. The jurisdiction of the internal forum deals with questions concerning the welfare of individual Christians and with their relation to God. Hence it is called the forum of conscience (Forum conscientiae). It is also denominated the forum of Heaven (forum poli) because it guides the soul on the path to God. The internal forum is subdivided into the sacramental or penitential, which is exercised in the tribunal of penance or at least is connected with it, and the extra penitential forum. Causes concerning the private and secret needs of the faithful can often be expedited outside the sacramental confession. … The internal forum deals therefore directly with the spiritual welfare of the individual faithful".
In the catechism of Pius X, he distinguishes between the body of the Church and the soul of the Church, which is somewhat similar to the internal and external forums. The Catholic Church is made up of both a body and the soul. It is not correct to say that the “body” is the Catholic Church, and the “soul” is a larger identity (the mystical body of Christ, for example). No. **Both the body and soul together make up the one Holy Catholic Church. ** To be saved, it is necessary to be united to both the body and soul of the Catholic Church; but the union with the body can be only implicit, rather than explicit. In such a case, a person may not appear to be united to the Church (since their union with the body is only implicit), yet in reality they are united to both. They are united to the soul explicitly by possessing supernatural faith and grace, and the body implicitly.
Regarding the second question: I’ll tell you a story of a women who died as Jew in the external forum, but was united to the Church in the internal forum. You may be able to find the story online.
A Jewish man converted to the Catholic faith and later became a Priest (I forget his name, but he is well known). He prayed for his Jewish mother her entire life, right up to the momement of her death. Unfortunately, there were no external signs of conversion.
Now, I forget how this was made known to him, but he learned what transpired at the moment of her death. The Blessed Mother intervened with Jesus by saying: “this soul belongs to me. Her son has recommended her to me 1000 times”. Immediately a ray of light shown down upon her, and she was immediately converted and saved. If I’m not mistaken, I think she went straight to heaven.
So, in this well known story we see an example of how it is possible for one to be united to the Church without being a formal member. Remember, this is an exception, and should not be presumed upon.
On the other hand, I use this example when I pray for my non-Catholic mother. I don’t know if I have recommended her to the Blessed Mother 1000 times yet, but I’m working on it.
I can also add that I am pretty sure something similar happened with my grandmother. Without going into a long story, I was there with her when she died. I managed to get brown scapular on her, and, although there were no external signs of her conversion, I am almost possitive God have me a sign. Although I was not looking for a sign, or expecting one, I got a HUGE sign in the hospital about an hour after she died.
Let us use these examples to give us hope, but not to lessen the importance of formal membership with the Church. I hope this explanation helps you.
D
distracted
Guest
there is no contradiction here… nothing changed… just because non-Cs are not saved does not mean we do not love them, reach out to them… it means that we DO all the more…The catechism on Jews, Muslims and Protestants
839 "Those who have not yet received the Gospel are related to the People of God in various ways."325
The relationship of the Church with the Jewish People. When she delves into her own mystery, the Church, the People of God in the New Covenant, discovers her link with the Jewish People,326 "the first to hear the Word of God."327 The Jewish faith, unlike other non-Christian religions, is already a response to God’s revelation in the Old Covenant.** To the Jews “belong the sonship, the glory, the covenants, the giving of the law, the worship, and the promises;** to them belong the patriarchs, and of their race, according to the flesh, is the Christ”,328 "for the gifts and the call of God are irrevocable."329
841 The Church’s relationship with the Muslims. "The plan of salvation also includes those who acknowledge the Creator, in the first place amongst whom are the Muslims; these profess to hold the faith of Abraham, and together with us they adore the one, merciful God, mankind’s judge on the last day."330
842 The Church’s bond with non-Christian religions is in the first place the common origin and end of the human race:
All nations form but one community. This is so because all stem from the one stock which God created to people the entire earth, and also because all share a common destiny, namely God. His providence, evident goodness, and saving designs extend to all against the day when the elect are gathered together in the holy city. . .331
848 "Although in ways known to himself God can lead those who, through no fault of their own, are ignorant of the Gospel, to that faith without which it is impossible to please him, the Church still has the obligation and also the sacred right to evangelize all men."338
Popes Boniface, Eugene and Pius XI on Jews, Muslims and Protestants.These 3 popes are saying something completely different about salvation for non-Catholics.
Pope Boniface VIII in his Papal Bull Unam Sanctam (A.D. 1302): “We declare, say, define, and pronounce that** it is absolutely necessary for the salvation of every human creature to be subject to the Roman Pontiff.” **
Pope Eugene IV and the Council of Florence (A.D. 1438 - 1445): “[The most Holy Roman Church] firmly believes, professes, and proclaims that **those not living within the Catholic Church, not only pagans, but also Jews and heretics and schismatics cannot become participants in eternal life, but will depart `into everlasting fire which was prepared for the devil and his angels’ (Matt. 25:41), unless before the end of life the same have been added to the flock; **and that the unity of the ecclesiastical body is so strong that only to those remaining in it are the sacraments of the Church of benefit for salvation, and do fastings, almsgiving, and other functions of piety and exercises of Christian service produce eternal reward, and that no one, whatever almsgiving he has practiced, even if he has shed blood for the name of Christ, can be saved, unless he has remained in the bosom and unity of the Catholic Church.”
Pope Pius XI (A.D. 1922 - 1939): “The Catholic Church alone is keeping the true worship. This is the font of truth, this is the house of faith, this is the temple of God; if any man enter not here, or if any man go forth from it, he is a stranger to the hope of life and salvation. …Furthermore, in this one Church of Christ, no man can be or remain who does not accept, recognize and obey the authority and supremacy of Peter and his legitimate successors.” (Encyclical, Mortalium Animos)
loving people does not mean that they are going to be saved… but only that we want them to be…
you seem to have some kind of animus against hte Church…
D
distracted
Guest
This post summarizes as that has gone before it. If you don’t read any other, read this one:
:
:
***No one who dies as a Jew, or a Mulsim, or a Protestant, or an Orthodox, will be saved. Without any doubt at all they will all go to hell.
Now, what is possible*** is that a person who is a Protestant, or Jew, or Muslim, etc, according to what is called the external forum, could possibly die as a Catholic according to the internal forum, and thereby be saved.
It is not correct to say that Protestants are members of the Church; but it is correct to say that it might be possible for a Protestant to be united to the Church according to the internal forum, even though they are not united to the Church according to the external forum - and it is union with the Church on the internal forum that saves.
It is also possible (and actually likely today) that some Catholics are united to the Church according to the external forum, but not according to the internal forum. This is the case, for example, with a Catholic who denies a dogma of the faith. Even though they are sill visible members of the Church - the external forum - they are cut off from the “soul” of the Church - the internal forum.
Objectively speaking, a person must be a member of the Catholic Church to be saved. Subjectively, it is within the realm of possibility that a person, who is not a formal member of the Church, can be united to the Church and thereby attain salvation.
Up until Vatican II the Church focused almost exclusively on the objective truth (that a man must belong to the Church to be saved), and only referred to the possible “exceptions” in passing. Since Vatican II, however, the focus has been shifted to the possible “exceptions”, to the exclusion of the rule.
This has resulted in a lot of confusion among the faithful. It appears to some that the Church has changed its teaching, when in reality the teaching is irreformable. Another problem with the shift in emphasis from the rule to the exception is that it has resulted in a general watering down of the dogma in the minds of many. Today, many Catholics are under the impression that being a formal member of the Church is really not that important as long as the non-Catholic is doing their best. The reality is that not being a formal member of the Church almost certainly means eternal damnation.
R
ron77nyc
Guest
This post summarizes as that has gone before it. If you don’t read any other, read this one:
The Church has changed what it once proclaimed as infallible. These 3 popes leave no hope for those who are not members of the Catholic Church. “Absolutely necessary” means no exceptions to the rule.No one who dies as a Jew, or a Mulsim, or a Protestant, or an Orthodox, will be saved. Without any doubt at all they will all go to hell…
…This has resulted in a lot of confusion among the faithful. It appears to some that the Church has changed its teaching, when in reality the teaching is irreformable. Another problem with the shift in emphasis from the rule to the exception is that it has resulted in a general watering down of the dogma in the minds of many. Today, many Catholics are under the impression that being a formal member of the Church is really not that important as long as the non-Catholic is doing their best. The reality is that not being a formal member of the Church almost certainly means eternal damnation.
Pope Boniface VIII in his Papal Bull Unam Sanctam (A.D. 1302): “We declare, say, define, and pronounce that** it is absolutely necessary for the salvation of every human creature to be subject to the Roman Pontiff.” **
Pope Eugene IV and the Council of Florence (A.D. 1438 - 1445): "[The most Holy Roman Church] firmly believes, professes, and proclaims that **those not living within the Catholic Church, not only pagans, but also Jews and heretics and schismatics cannot become participants in eternal life, but will depart `into everlasting fire which was prepared for the devil and his angels’ (Matt. 25:41), unless before the end of life the same have been added to the flock; **
Pope Pius XI (A.D. 1922 - 1939): “The Catholic Church alone is keeping the true worship. This is the font of truth, this is the house of faith, this is the temple of God; if any man enter not here, or if any man go forth from it, he is a stranger to the hope of life and salvation. …Furthermore, in this one Church of Christ, no man can be or remain who does not accept, recognize and obey the authority and supremacy of Peter and his legitimate successors.” (Encyclical, Mortalium Animos)
When the apostles baptised Cornelius, the Phillipian jailer and all the other believers in Jesus, they never told them to be in submission to Peter before they could be baptised. They only said believe in Jesus and you will be saved.
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