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ron77nyc
Guest
Those years were much different than the years that followed. Peter didn’t tolerate immorality or dishonesty in the Church and he was healing people and casting out demons. To not listen to Peter was a serious offense. He was not building an earthly empire and making deals with political powers. He was obeying God like his life depended on it as we all should be doing. There was no selling of indulgences to build an earthly temple. There was no attachment to the things of this world. They believed they were living in the end times. They had no idea that the Church would carry on for centuries.
Luke 9:27 I tell you the truth, some who are standing here will not taste death before they see the kingdom of God.”
1 Corinthians 15:52 in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet; for the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised imperishable, and we will be changed.
1 Thessalonians 4: 15 According to the Lord’s own word, we tell you that we who are still alive, who are left till the coming of the Lord, will certainly not precede those who have fallen asleep. 16 For the Lord himself will come down from heaven, with a loud command, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet call of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first. 17 After that, we who are still alive and are left will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And so we will be with the Lord forever. 18 Therefore encourage each other with these words.
K
Kook
Guest
More unsupported assertions, not to mention outright falsehood. Paul makes it clear that some of the traditions are not written down, which is contrary to what you say. Am I to believe Paul or you?
You also have no evidence, standard, or proof for demonstrating that Catholic traditions are different from the traditions of the Apostles.
It is not a matter of “if” there is only one faith. Paul says so. Or is this another area in which you disagree with Paul?
As for JPII’s actions, you’d have to have asked him why he did that.
I didn’t say that. I said your behavior seemed hypocritical because you condemned Catholicism for being exclusivist, yet you are speaking in a very exclusivist manner towards Catholics.
You have it wrong. God made the Pope infallible.
Since you clearly contradict Scripture and beliefs of Apostolic Christianity, I’m having difficulty seeing how you place trust in anything but yourself. The Catholics here clearly don’t trust in their own judgment. They have instead submitted to the pillar and foundation of Truth.
D
distracted
Guest
an old catechism… how does that differ from the new ones? i am not familiar with the different ones… ?
anyhow, i like your posts and totally agree with you… at least with the posts i have read but i tend to trust they are all OK with the Church…
D
distracted
Guest
When the apostles baptised Cornelius, the Phillipian jailer and all the other believers in Jesus, they never told them to be in submission to Peter before they could be baptised. They only said believe in Jesus and you will be saved.
ther is NO contradiction…
the exception says that a person can be Catholic w ithout being a fomral member of the Church… if he is catholic in his interior self…
I think you should stop attacking Christ’s Church… that is NOT a healthy thing to do…
not being negative, just concerned about your soul… and whatever else might be … not doing so well…
you can believe i have a good motive or not… but i do…
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ron77nyc
Guest
I’m not attacking Christ’s Church. All I’m saying is your explanation above (you can be a member without being a formal member) is not what Boniface, Eugene and other popes have stated infallibly. If they had said what you said, then Vatican II would not be the problem it is today. They would all be saying the same thing.
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Ultima_Ratio
Guest
The old catechism explain the faith with more precision. I find that people often misinterpret the new catechsims, just as they do the documents of Vatican II. The old catechisms utilizing the question and answer format, are, in my opinion, the best.
Here’s how the Catechism of Pius X explains some of the issues we’ve discussed in this thread.
That one section answers a lot of the questions raised in this thread.
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Roy5
Guest
If God is merciful, surely he will not send people to hell because they are not Roman Catholic. That would contradict the very nature of the Divine. Surely he would follow his own teaching when Christ was asked how many times we should forgive. Seven times? No, Jesus answers. seventy times seven times. I’m sure that didn’t mean 490 times, but infinitely.
Code:
The Catholic teaching (still apparently widespread) that there was no salvation outside the church was a primary cause of anti-Catholicism. It smacks of pious arrogance, unworthy of Christians. To begin with, Jesus said 'judge not, that ye be not judged' - so who are we to decide who is going to heaven? Secondly, in his parable of the Good Samaritan, it was the Samaritan who was the good neighbor who would enter eternal life. Samaritans were neither Jews nor Christians, and condemned by Jews as they had intermarried, devised a different religion, etc.
My own view is that eternity - whether heaven as we envision it or some place quite different - will be filled with Christians of many varieties, Jews, Muslims, Buddhists, Hindus, Taoists, Shintoists, Native Americans of various tribal religions, etc. Perhaps those left out will include people of different faiths who were convinced that they were the ones who would most easily get through the Pearly Gates. Maybe God will leave them outside for a long time as punishment for their pious amd pompous arrogance These would include many over-confident Catholics, fundamentalist Protestants, Jews who think themselves above others, Taliban-type Muslims, etc.
God bless the whole world - no exceptions.
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Leo_The_Great
Guest
Guess what? God doesn’t send people to hell!! At the end of time, God’s love will be all in all. I am about to champion the vision of St. Gregory of Nyssa here: When Christ returns, and God is all in all, will there be room for hell, a created place of eternal torment for sinners to satisfy the unmet justice of God?
Yes.
No.
God is Light and in him there is no darkness.
Our God is a consuming fire.
A river Fire went forth from his throne.
Love your enemy, in this way you will heap burning coals upon his head.
When those who have disposed themselves in such a way as to be faithful members of Christ and his church encounter Christ on the last day, They will experience the Light and Love of Christ as Divine illumination, and all remaining defects of Sin will be purged by the Fire of his love.
When those who have turned their backs on God encounter Christ on the Last day, they will not experience his love in any lesser way: But, because of their disposition, and their turning away from GOd and making an eternal choice, they will experience not light and illumination, but eternal fire and torment: For God’s love is a torment for those who will not receive it, i.e. Lucifer and the Fallen Angels.
Notice that God does not need to set aside a special place, they will run from him. He does not need to torment them, they are a torment to themselves by failing to dispose themselves toward Christ eternally. But his Love will permeate everything and will unite itself to everything so that their very being is filled with his love:
AND they will be burning from the inside out forever because they cannot receive it. It will continually be to them the worm that gnaws at them forever:
“You turned away, you want to come back but you will never come back, because you have chosen infinite exile; blinded by the light of his glory, destroyed by the fire of his love. truly God himself is hell to those who do not wish to be with him…”
Yes.
No.
God is Light and in him there is no darkness.
Our God is a consuming fire.
A river Fire went forth from his throne.
Love your enemy, in this way you will heap burning coals upon his head.
When those who have disposed themselves in such a way as to be faithful members of Christ and his church encounter Christ on the last day, They will experience the Light and Love of Christ as Divine illumination, and all remaining defects of Sin will be purged by the Fire of his love.
When those who have turned their backs on God encounter Christ on the Last day, they will not experience his love in any lesser way: But, because of their disposition, and their turning away from GOd and making an eternal choice, they will experience not light and illumination, but eternal fire and torment: For God’s love is a torment for those who will not receive it, i.e. Lucifer and the Fallen Angels.
Notice that God does not need to set aside a special place, they will run from him. He does not need to torment them, they are a torment to themselves by failing to dispose themselves toward Christ eternally. But his Love will permeate everything and will unite itself to everything so that their very being is filled with his love:
AND they will be burning from the inside out forever because they cannot receive it. It will continually be to them the worm that gnaws at them forever:
“You turned away, you want to come back but you will never come back, because you have chosen infinite exile; blinded by the light of his glory, destroyed by the fire of his love. truly God himself is hell to those who do not wish to be with him…”
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Lynxdk
Guest
The teachings of Jesus do not require lengthy explanations. They were said, and meant, to be easily understood by all. No interpretation required. So why do these doctrines require so much explanation to be understood?
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Ultima_Ratio
Guest
Let’s take a look at a few of the easily understood teachings that require no explanation. Let me know if you accept these.
John 6:54: :Then Jesus said to them: Amen, amen I say unto you: Except you eat the flesh of the Son of man, and drink his blood, you shall not have life in you. 55 He that eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, hath everlasting life: and I will raise him up in the last day. 56 For my flesh is meat indeed: and my blood is drink indeed. 57 He that eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, abideth in me, and I in him. 58 As the living Father hath sent me, and I live by the Father; so he that eateth me, the same also shall live by me.
Very simple to understand. Jesus’ flesh is meet indeed and his blood is drink indeed. If we don’t eat the flesh of the Son of man and drink His blood we shall have no live in us. Very easy to understand, and I accept it. Do you?
Here’s another easliy understood verse:
John 20:21 Jesus "said therefore to them again: Peace be to you. As the Father hath sent me, I also send you. 22 When he had said this, he breathed on them; and he said to them: Receive ye the Holy Ghost. 23 Whose sins you shall forgive, they are forgiven them; and whose sins you shall retain, they are retained.
Clear enough. Jesus tells the apostles that whose sins they forgive, are forgiven them; and whose sins they retain, they are retained.
Here’s another one:
Matthew 18:17: "And if he will not hear the church, let him be to thee as the heathen and publican. 18 Amen I say to you, whatsoever you shall bind upon earth, shall be bound also in heaven; and whatsoever you shall loose upon earth, shall be loosed also in heaven.
Again, very clear and easily understood. If someone will not hear the Church, they are to be considered a heathen. And anyone who studies Church history will soon learn what Church Jesus was talking about - since there is only one that has existed since that time.
Here’s another verse that’s very easy to understand:
2 Thess 2:14(15) "Therefore, brethren, stand fast; and hold the traditions which you have learned, whether by word, or by our epistle".
It doesn’t get much more clear than that. The Bible itself tells us to hold fast to traditions passed down “by word”. I’m curious, which oral traditions do you hold fast to?
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Lynxdk
Guest
Works for me.
Very nice.
If you assume that Christ’s Church is the human institution you choose to belong to. Now you’ve already interjected a stretch on logic that you can somehow map Christ’s Church to the RCC, rather than see that Christ’s Church, which is not an institution, is so much larger than it seems.
Here’s a few of my favorites:
Luke 6:31
Do to others as you would have them do to you.
Matthew 22:36-39
“Teacher, which is the greatest commandment in the Law?” Jesus replied: “Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind. This is the first and greatest commandment. And the second is like it: Love your neighbor as yourself.”
Matthew 7:1-2
“Do not judge, or you too will be judged. For in the same way you judge others, you will be judged, and with the measure you use, it will be measured to you.”
John 8:7
But Jesus bent down and started to write on the ground with his finger. When they kept on questioning him, he straightened up and said to them, “If any one of you is without sin, let him be the first to throw a stone at her.”
I think that’ll do for now, but it doesn’t get much more clear than that… =) So… why all the complications?
D
distracted
Guest
that’s awesome…
and i know God dos these kinds of htings becaue… well… it is difficult to find Jesus in this world where everyone hates the Catholic Church… so it definitely seems… not eveyrone but 90% of everyone…
D
distracted
Guest
Jesus said that few find the narrow way to eternal life. … (st Mt 7:13, St Lk 13:24) That means whether they are Catholic or not. If even Catholics don’t get to heaven often, what about those who reject His Church??
Jesus said that many will try to enter Heaven but will not be strong enough (holy enough/pure enough…). True, no human can ever really be as pure as he should be to enter Heven… without great purification… prayer/Masses, sacrifices, good works, etc… and so we, … trust in Christ’s awesome mercy… (“After you have done everything, say: We are nothing but worthless servants”) but some people trust in his mercy too much (presumption) and when they comit sin, thye stain their souls… and then a stained soul cannot enter Heaven… and those outside the Chruch don’t have access to sacramental confession… and so they lose out on graces … and without grace one cannot be purified suffiently for Heaven. Rememer there is NOT one drop, as it were… of sin in Heaven… If the least desire for sin… JUst a DESIRE mind you… for sin were to be allowed into Heaven, it wouldn’t be heaven anymore… so no inclination toward sin can go into Heaven…
this is the person’s fault… not God’s… not Jesus’…
you are right that God is all-merciful… He helps those who help themsleves… who LOVE HIM and his holiness… If a person loves Jesus with all his heart and soul… he will FIND His Church… or at least give up his hatred toward it… usually both…
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Roy5
Guest
I detect a common refrain among some posters - that the Catholic Church is widely hated. Now, that may be true among atheists and other anti-clerical people, but I don’t find it common among Protestants. Most of us regard Catholicism as a different branch of Christianity, the largest in terms of membership, although huge numbers claimed by the Catholic Church are not practicing Catholics. I don’t have the figures from the Catholic Almanac at my fingertips, but the % of Catholics claimed in such countries as today’s Italy, Spain, Quebec, and certain Latin American countries is far more than actually are there. In Quebec, for example, where practicing Catholics were 90% of the population 50 years ago, secularism and considerable backlash against Catholicism is obvious. About 7-10% of the population now attends mass.
Code:
Protestants generally take issue, of course, with the Catholic Church. Mainline Protestants may differ more than others when it comes to doctrines and practices, perhaps, but they are inclined to be more ecumenical. (I am one of these.) They are more tolerant toward the faiths of others, Christian or otherwise. Evangelical and especially fundamentalist Protestants share more with Catholicism in some doctrinal areas (the Virgin Birth, for example), and also on some moral issues (such as abortion, although mainline Protestants divide on this issue). Yet, they are more dogmatic and would criticize Catholicism quite strongly when it comes to Mariology, communion, the papacy, confession to a priest, the saints, etc. My educated guess, by the way, would be that a higher percentage of fundamentalist Protestants would oppose abortion under all circumstances than Catholics.
Now, as to the topic of this thread, I'll let God decide who is saved. If I were a betting person, I would bet my home that religious affiliation and doctrine will not play much of a role. When Christ was asked how to inherit eternal life, he had a perfect opportunity to expound on doctrine. Instead, he told the parable of the Good Samaritan. Samaritans, of course, were despised by the Jews because they had intermarried and had departed from the Jewish faith. That says a whole lot to me. It says that we won't be judged so much by our religious affiliation as by our love of God and of one another.
God bless Christians, Jews, Muslims, and those of every creed, color and country. May religion become a bridge and not a barrier.
D
distracted
Guest
i already knew this but needed to read it again… it makes me realize all over again that some people know the way of salvation but just don’t choose it… i guess we just need to pray that they will change thier minds… but it aggravates me that peple don’t seem to give a rip whether they … um find God… or not… or salvation, i should say. Some think they already have God (??) …
. i guess i get impatient with people… and that makes me get a defeatist attitude because i can’t magically change them…
i care more about their souls than they do, it would seem… Weird… but things aren’t always waht they seem anyhow… i have to remind myself.i am right to desire that people be saved but there is no way i can save them, i can just help to save them by giving them Jesus who can… (I am trying to inform my unconscious mind here)
D
distracted
Guest
it is not that religous affliliation saves…
it is what the religion espouses that matters… that means something.
in other words… well, an example:
if you say to someone Jesus loves you…
that person who may have heardthat before… could do any # of things… he could think… “yeah, i suppose so” and shrug it off… he could say “I know that… but i dont feel it” (that was me several yrs ago)… or whatever…
doesthe person’s attitude change just from hearing those words? God knows…
same thing with doctirnes… you can read about them, discuss them… etc… but if they don’t penetrate into your… heart, doesn’t do you much good… sounds like just a bunch of jargon…
everything the Catholic Church teaches reflects some spiritual reality or reality period, i should say. The rituals … ditto…
some non - C’s seem more catholic than Catholics … becaue they love the Word and try to live by it…
this is the inner forum… and so they have a chance of making it to Heaven… but if a person goes by the Word or says he does and yet… say thinks that artif birth control is OK… well, he is nt listening to Christ because that is a sin…
you are right to say that only God judges people… and artif birth control is not as bad as abortion, true enough… but Jesus established ONE Church… and that Church and that Church alone has ALL ofthe truth…
***we hve the Real Presence… ***
L
Lynxdk
Guest
Amen.
T
truevaticanii
Guest
Pope Innocent III (A.D. 1198 - 1216): “With our hearts we believe and with our lips we confess but one Church, not that of the heretics, but the Holy Roman Catholic and Apostolic Church, outside which we believe that no one is saved.” (Denzinger 423)
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truevaticanii
Guest
"The answer: Yes and no??? This is a complex question. I suggest you read the first and possibly second documents from EWTN, lited below. After reading them, you may consider reading my thoughts.
ewtn.com/faith/teachings/chura5.htm
ewtn.com/expert/answers/outside_the_church.htm
Thus, you must be a Catholic in order to receive grace of salvation, yet there are some who–by no fault of their own–are unable to see the Truth. But, they follow natural law, and they do their best to seek the Truth. They are like Catholics who are unsure of what the Truth is within the Church, so they keep searching for the answer (the only difference is that we are Catholic. I have less searching to do because I was raised Catholic, and so all that I have to do is find the Truth within the Church where people have confused the teachings in what they try to “teach” about the faith. The others though, are Catholic in a spiritual sense, the Holy Spirit keeps guiding them in their ignorance, and eventually they will become Catholic unless they die before baptism or before they can finally reach the Truth within the Catholic Church. These people are then possibly Baptized by desire, or if they are Christians, they are perhaps baptized in a Christian denomination, while they are truly still searching for the Truth within their church. The next step for them is to look into all Christian teachings, and to limit that down to the True teachings found in the Catholic Church. Now, if you were responsible for your rejecting of the fullness of Truth (which we strive to come to in Catholicism), then you are separate from Catholicism, thus you are unable to come to salvation. That is my understanding of it all. However, we must remember that we can never know whether or not someone is responsible for their rejection of the Truth in Catholicism–only God knows, for Jesus is the only one who knows the state of that soul. Those who, by no fault of their own are not raised Catholic, and are unable to get to the more full Truth found in Catholicism before death, yet they seek the Truth and live by natural law are Catholics in their hearts; they just didn’t become Catholics through the visible Church (ie., they weren’t Confirmed by a Catholic priest/bishop), yet they likely would have been Confirmed by a Catholic priest/bishop (had they been able to live longer) ARE members of the Body of Christ that is the Church–the One Holy Catholic and Apostolic Church–in their hearts. Also, it is likely that they will see the Truth in the Catholic Church even in the very moment before they die. They are like Catholic children who are baptized in the Church, but they have not yet reached the age of reason… or something along those lines. Some are perhaps like the little children who were to be baptized one day, but they died before they were able to be. This is how I read these documents.
Pax Domini Vobiscum."
^ my blog
ewtn.com/faith/teachings/chura5.htm
ewtn.com/expert/answers/outside_the_church.htm
Thus, you must be a Catholic in order to receive grace of salvation, yet there are some who–by no fault of their own–are unable to see the Truth. But, they follow natural law, and they do their best to seek the Truth. They are like Catholics who are unsure of what the Truth is within the Church, so they keep searching for the answer (the only difference is that we are Catholic. I have less searching to do because I was raised Catholic, and so all that I have to do is find the Truth within the Church where people have confused the teachings in what they try to “teach” about the faith. The others though, are Catholic in a spiritual sense, the Holy Spirit keeps guiding them in their ignorance, and eventually they will become Catholic unless they die before baptism or before they can finally reach the Truth within the Catholic Church. These people are then possibly Baptized by desire, or if they are Christians, they are perhaps baptized in a Christian denomination, while they are truly still searching for the Truth within their church. The next step for them is to look into all Christian teachings, and to limit that down to the True teachings found in the Catholic Church. Now, if you were responsible for your rejecting of the fullness of Truth (which we strive to come to in Catholicism), then you are separate from Catholicism, thus you are unable to come to salvation. That is my understanding of it all. However, we must remember that we can never know whether or not someone is responsible for their rejection of the Truth in Catholicism–only God knows, for Jesus is the only one who knows the state of that soul. Those who, by no fault of their own are not raised Catholic, and are unable to get to the more full Truth found in Catholicism before death, yet they seek the Truth and live by natural law are Catholics in their hearts; they just didn’t become Catholics through the visible Church (ie., they weren’t Confirmed by a Catholic priest/bishop), yet they likely would have been Confirmed by a Catholic priest/bishop (had they been able to live longer) ARE members of the Body of Christ that is the Church–the One Holy Catholic and Apostolic Church–in their hearts. Also, it is likely that they will see the Truth in the Catholic Church even in the very moment before they die. They are like Catholic children who are baptized in the Church, but they have not yet reached the age of reason… or something along those lines. Some are perhaps like the little children who were to be baptized one day, but they died before they were able to be. This is how I read these documents.
Pax Domini Vobiscum."
^ my blog
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