Is there salvation outside the Catholic church?

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napad said:
I didn’t see that phase in your post. Did I miss it?

Yeah I know baptism of desire (BOD) has some history but it is still a theory like Limbo. It also has a history opposed to it but people speak about it as though BOD is a dogma it isn’t it is a theory that I have some serious issues with.

Just for the sake of augment in all those quotes was there mention of pagans or Jews or atheists or Muslims being saved? If we can agree that non of the Church Fathers above agreed with that then maybe we can make some progress.
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I read a book about the history of enyclicals edited by Anne Freemantle ( I can’t recall the title) wherein some Pope decides that a deceased priest whose baptism in infancy is called into question ( and thereby all of his clerical ministrations ) even if not effectively baptized in water was baptizd by his desire for the sacrament and to live out the sacramental character of baptism in his life. This was the earliest citation I could find for baptism of desire.
 
Danno2281 said:
I read a book about the history of enyclicals edited by Anne Freemantle ( I can’t recall the title) wherein some Pope decides that a deceased priest whose baptism in infancy is called into question ( and thereby all of his clerical ministrations ) even if not effectively baptized in water was baptizd by his desire for the sacrament and to live out the sacramental character of baptism in his life. This was the earliest citation I could find for baptism of desire.
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I know what you are talking about. It was added to the Denzinger by Karel Rahner when he was editor. Rahnerites often try to pass it off as a legitimate authoritative document but it isn’t.

Yeah it isn’t in an encyclical. It is a letter that is very dubious. One can’t be a priest without being Baptised by Water. BOD does not put a mark on your soul so it is like Baptism but it isn’t baptism. It is referred to a baptism metaphorically. Just like taking the 3 vows also wipes away all temporal punishment for sin. It is like a “second baptism,” as saints have said, but it isn’t baptism. The 3 vows are also often referred to as *baptism of blood *because it was considered a dry martyrdom ; like martyrdom was like 2nd baptism because it wiped away all punishment for sin.( BTW the martyrs were baptized when they used this expression)
 
richardmc said:
Is there salvation outside the Catholic church?
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No.
Pope Eugene IV, Council of Florence, “Cantate Domino,” 1441, ex cathedra: “The Holy Roman Church firmly believes, professes and preaches that all those who are outside the Catholic Church, not only pagans but also Jews or heretics and schismatics, cannot share in eternal life and will go into the everlasting fire which was prepared for the devil and his angels, unless they are joined to the Church before the end of their lives…”
 
Padraig_77 said:
No.
Pope Eugene IV, Council of Florence, “Cantate Domino,” 1441, ex cathedra: “The Holy Roman Church firmly believes, professes and preaches that all those who are outside the Catholic Church, not only pagans but also Jews or heretics and schismatics, cannot share in eternal life and will go into the everlasting fire which was prepared for the devil and his angels, unless they are joined to the Church before the end of their lives…”
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we have address that before:thumbsup:
 
Padraig_77 said:
No.
Pope Eugene IV, Council of Florence, “Cantate Domino,” 1441, ex cathedra: “The Holy Roman Church firmly believes, professes and preaches that all those who are outside the Catholic Church, not only pagans but also Jews or heretics and schismatics, cannot share in eternal life and will go into the everlasting fire which was prepared for the devil and his angels, unless they are joined to the Church before the end of their lives…”
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Ultimately God will decide. It’s His kingdom.
 
napad said:
God has decided already because its his kingdom.=Florence
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So I guess that means then that not only are all the Protestants/pagans/Jews/heretics/schismatics in hell, but also all stillborn/aborted babies and unbaptized martyrs.

And I guess me, too, eventually, because I cannot fully accept this.

As a side note, no one here who holds to that idea has reconciled what, say, Eugenius has taught with what the Holy Father is saying now. I assume you are saying that the Church – or at least those in charge of it – are now teaching error?
 
napad said:
God has decided already because its his kingdom.=Florence
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God decided long before the Council of Florence.

usccb.org/nab/bible/daniel/daniel12.htm

Daniel 12:1 1 "At that time there shall arise Michael, the great prince, guardian of your people; It shall be a time unsurpassed in distress since nations began until that time. At that time your people shall escape, everyone who is found written in the book.
2 2 Many of those who sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake; some shall live forever, others shall be an everlasting horror and disgrace.

usccb.org/nab/bible/daniel/daniel12.htm

**Footnotes ** by the US Catholic Bishops
1 [1] Written in the book: the book of God’s predestination.
2 [2] The first Israelites who have fallen (Daniel 11:33-35) shall awake, that is, rise to live forever. A resurrection of the wicked as in later, Christian teaching (John 5:28-29) is implied here if the others are included in the many; but cf Isaiah 66:24.

Revelation 7
5 twelve thousand were marked from the tribe of Judah, 5 twelve thousand from the tribe of Reuben, twelve thousand from the tribe of Gad,
6 twelve thousand from the tribe of Asher, twelve thousand from the tribe of Naphtali, twelve thousand from the tribe of Manasseh,
7 twelve thousand from the tribe of Simeon, twelve thousand from the tribe of Levi, twelve thousand from the tribe of Issachar,
8 twelve thousand from the tribe of Zebulun, twelve thousand from the tribe of Joseph, and twelve thousand were marked from the tribe of Benjamin.
9 After this I had a vision of a great multitude, which no one could count, from every nation, race, people, and tongue. They stood before the throne and before the Lamb, wearing white robes and holding palm branches 6 in their hands.
10 They cried out in a loud voice: “Salvation comes from 7 our God, who is seated on the throne, and from the Lamb.”
11 All the angels stood around the throne and around the elders and the four living creatures. They prostrated themselves before the throne, worshiped God,
12 and exclaimed: “Amen. Blessing and glory, wisdom and thanksgiving, honor, power, and might be to our God forever and ever. Amen.”
13 Then one of the elders spoke up and said to me, “Who are these wearing white robes, and where did they come from?”
**14 I said to him, “My lord, you are the one who knows.” He said to me, "These are the ones who have survived the time of great distress; 8 they have washed their robes and made them white in the blood of the Lamb. **15 “For this reason they stand before God’s throne and worship him day and night in his temple. The one who sits on the throne will shelter them.
16 They will not hunger or thirst anymore, nor will the sun or any heat strike them.
17 For the Lamb who is in the center of the throne will shepherd them and lead them to springs of life-giving water, 9 and God will wipe away every tear from their eyes.”
 
One must understand this statement

“Is there salvation outside the Church”

1.The Catholic Church is Christ
  1. Christ being the Head
  2. The layity and clergy being the Body
  3. To not agree with this statement is to say there is salvation outside of Christ.
  4. The bible clearly teaches that Christ is the truth and light and no one comes to the Father except through Him.
Now lets understand this statement,

does that mean unless you are Catholic one cannot have salvation?

The answer is no

Can you have Salvation without the Catholic Church (Christ)

the answer is no

The Body of the Catholic Church surely gives a direction working through trhe Head (Christ) to salvation with the Sacraments, Her sacred teaching, Sacred traditions, and Sacred Scripture.

But it is the Head (Christ) who makes the decision who goes to the Father.

For we are taught do not judge or we will be judged. Surely I need Mercy not judgement for if we were judged not many of us will be in heaven but in hell.

As it relates to someones statement here concerning babies that have been aborted, miscarriages, etc… There is Baptisnm remember through blood.

Jesus said, “Let the little children come to Me;
do not stop them.” (Mark 10:14a)

Also remember Jesus will seperate the Sheeps from the goats upon His return so if there is any doubt about His Mercy and forgiveness it will be settled there.
 
c659smith said:
One must understand this statement

“Is there salvation outside the Church”

1.The Catholic Church is Christ
  1. Christ being the Head
  2. The layity and clergy being the Body
  3. To not agree with this statement is to say there is salvation outside of Christ.
  4. The bible clearly teaches that Christ is the truth and light and no one comes to the Father except through Him.
Now lets understand this statement,

does that mean unless you are Catholic one cannot have salvation?

The answer is no

Can you have Salvation without the Catholic Church (Christ)

the answer is no
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Are Protestant missionaries wasting their time? What must Jesus think of these heretics going around the world preaching the gospel and feeding the poor?
 
ron77nyc said:
Are Protestant missionaries wasting their time? What must Jesus think of these heretics going around the world preaching the gospel and feeding the poor?
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50"Do not stop him," Jesus said, “for whoever is not against you is for you.”

Are Protestant Missionaries aganist the Catholic Church?
 
c659smith said:
50"Do not stop him," Jesus said, “for whoever is not against you is for you.”

Are Protestant Missionaries aganist the Catholic Church?
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I don’t know all of them. Some may be from bad teaching and some may not but according to the Council of Trent they and all their converts will burn because they are not Catholic. That’s a gruesome thought. Could that be right?
 
ron77nyc said:
I don’t know all of them. Some may be from bad teaching and some may not but according to the Council of Trent they and all their converts will burn because they are not Catholic. That’s a gruesome thought. Could that be right?
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If anyone says that justifying faith is nothing else than confidence in divine mercy, which remits sins for Christ’s sake, or that it is this confidence alone that justifies us, let him be anathema.

It does not condemn Protestants but those that belief in Christ syndrome so I am saved and can do whatever I please here on earth are cursed or condemned. Removed from Christ’s Graces
 
c659smith said:
If anyone says that justifying faith is nothing else than confidence in divine mercy, which remits sins for Christ’s sake, or that it is this confidence alone that justifies us, let him be anathema.

It does not condemn Protestants but those that belief in Christ syndrome so I am saved and can do whatever I please here on earth are cursed or condemned. Removed from Christ’s Graces
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That’s another subject.
 
ron77nyc said:
I don’t know all of them. Some may be from bad teaching and some may not but according to the Council of Trent they and all their converts will burn because they are not Catholic. That’s a gruesome thought. Could that be right?
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Yeah it is gruesome to us but then again we don’t see people’s souls. Most thought about John Kennedy (when he was president) was a great guy. Good looking , clever and funny a war hero etc… but it comes out later that he had been cheating on his wife for years and addicted to prescription medicine. This is only to point out we don’t know how good people are or aren’t only God Knows so if someone is condemned to the torments of hell it is of their own free choice.
 
napad said:
Yeah it is gruesome to us but then again we don’t see people’s souls. Most thought about John Kennedy (when he was president) was a great guy. Good looking , clever and funny a war hero etc… but it comes out later that he had been cheating on his wife for years and addicted to prescription medicine. This is only to point out we don’t know how good people are or aren’t only God Knows so if someone is condemned to the torments of hell it is of their own free choice.
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Yes but you do not know if he died in a state of Grace now do you?

For while John Kennedy may have had some failings He probably had much success Spiritually.

Remember He was given absolution before his death and may have repented for his sins, and failing before his death.

Do not judge unless one wants to be judged.

So I know you are not judging but you are stating exactly what I am we do not know anyones Spiritual state at the time of our death.
 
wisdomseeker said:
this is a site that provides info in what the pope BXVI affirming the True Church. people seem not to be listen.

dallasnews.com/sharedcontent/dws/dn/latestnews/stories/071107dnrelpope.5fa17010.html
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First paragraph from that article:

“Pope Benedict XVI has reasserted the universal primacy of the Roman Catholic Church, approving a document released Tuesday that says Orthodox churches were defective and that other Christian denominations were not true churches.”

What is the importance of that primacy if the following is also true? In other words- how can the necessity of the Church be stressed when Biblical faith isn’t even necessary for salvation?

“Whoever seeks peace and the good of the community with a pure conscience, and keeps alive the desire for the transcendent, will be saved even if he lacks biblical faith, says Benedict XVI.”
zenit.org/article-14695?l=english
 
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