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napad
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So have we reach a conclusion? Is there salvation outside the Church?
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Danno2281
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That something is taught in a Catholic school does not make it necessarily free from error. The belief that one can be saved by ‘good works alone’ is as flawed as Luther’s belief in salvation by faith alone.If a non-Catholic Hindu who truly believes in her religion can be saved, then Jesus isn’t necessary for salvation and His life was unnecessary.
I urge you to read the beginning of Veritatis Splendor wherein JPII so well explained the whole concept of good works. All good finds its origin, essence, and end in Jesus because apart from Him there is no good. Jesus is uniquely able to answer the question about the good because He is essential to any good. Works done apart from Him can only reflect His goodness, they cannot partake of it. They cannot BE good works, only works that reflect goodness.
Because He founded the Church as an intimate part of His very self, one cannot stay apart from that Church and be united to Him. The ‘good works’ done outside Her can be naturally good in that they can reflect God’s goodness, but they cannot be truly good, cannot attain to supernatural goodness, and cannot merit any supernatural reward.
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Danno2281
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Sure. The Church is wrong, has always been wrong, and is unnecessary. Just feel good about yourself. And all dogs go to heaven, just like birds and bunny rabbits.So have we reach a conclusion? Is there salvation outside the Church?
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ron77nyc
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It seems that no one is absolutely sure about this.
**This is what the catechism says:
1258 **The Church has always held the firm conviction that those who suffer death for the sake of the faith without having received Baptism are baptized by their death for and with Christ. This Baptism of blood, like the desire for Baptism, brings about the fruits of Baptism without being a sacrament.
**Pope Eugene IV **( A.D. 1441 ) " The most Holy Roman Church believes, professes, and proclaims that those not living within the Catholic Church, not only pagans, but also Jews and heretics and schismatic’s cannot become participants in eternal life, but will depart " into everlasting fire which was prepared for the devil and his angels" ( Matt. 25:21), unless before the end of life the same has been added to the flock; and that the unity of the ecclesiastical body is so strong that only to those remaining in it are the sacraments of the Church of benefit for salvation, and do fasting’s, almsgiving, and other functions of piety and exercises of Christian service produce eternal reward, and that no one, whatever almsgiving he has practiced, even if he has shed his blood for the name of Christ, can be saved, unless he has remained in the bosom and unity of the Catholic Church.
" Cantata Domino" Council of Florence
**Pope Benedict XVI ** “Whoever seeks peace and the good of the community with a pure conscience, and keeps alive the desire for the transcendent, will be saved even if he lacks biblical faith.”
Read entire article
zenit.org/article-14695?l=english
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Cara_Serrano
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There’s not even salvation inside the Church if you don’t abide by the doctrines.So have we reach a conclusion? Is there salvation outside the Church?
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Danno2281
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Please note the proviso “with a pure conscience.” In the same allocution, Benedict warns that,although these my be on their way from Babylon to Jerusalem, there are dangers that threaten their safe arrival. They have not yet arrived.
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argonaut
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I believe in keeping things simple, that God would want issues discussed simply for all to understand.
I believe God is Love and God is forgiving. Jesus said that we are to be forgiving and to not judge, which is exactly what some of you are doing here.
If a Pope truly believed that there is forgiveness outside of the Catholic Church, then he would have pronounced ex-cathedra.
For me to feel and believe the way I think God wants me to be, I need to leave the Catholic Church, which will be difficult. I can’t remain in a church that is so stifling. If a woman thinks she has had a calling to become a priest, she is told she can’t even discuss it or am I thinking about priests marrying, either way…(What is wrong with discussion?). The Catholic Church is now accepting Protestant married ministers to become priests.
This discussion is going around in circles. I wonder if anyone’s mind has been changed (either way) from when they first signed on in January?
And as ‘napad’ has been asking:
“So have we reach a conclusion? Is there salvation outside the Church?”
The conclusion, it should seem, is: What Does The Catholic Church teach? Does a Catholic have to believe in everything that it teaches? For those women who take birth control and the church teaches that you shouldn’t, should they be excommunicated? Why have the rules if they are allowed to be broken?
I believe God is Love and God is forgiving. Jesus said that we are to be forgiving and to not judge, which is exactly what some of you are doing here.
If a Pope truly believed that there is forgiveness outside of the Catholic Church, then he would have pronounced ex-cathedra.
For me to feel and believe the way I think God wants me to be, I need to leave the Catholic Church, which will be difficult. I can’t remain in a church that is so stifling. If a woman thinks she has had a calling to become a priest, she is told she can’t even discuss it or am I thinking about priests marrying, either way…(What is wrong with discussion?). The Catholic Church is now accepting Protestant married ministers to become priests.
This discussion is going around in circles. I wonder if anyone’s mind has been changed (either way) from when they first signed on in January?
And as ‘napad’ has been asking:
“So have we reach a conclusion? Is there salvation outside the Church?”
The conclusion, it should seem, is: What Does The Catholic Church teach? Does a Catholic have to believe in everything that it teaches? For those women who take birth control and the church teaches that you shouldn’t, should they be excommunicated? Why have the rules if they are allowed to be broken?
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paul_c
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The rules are defined to help you make the choices that will allow you to be saved. It is not necessary or even proper to ex-communicate those that sin, for we are all sinners. Those that are ex-communicated are those that lead others to sin by opposing church doctrine.
I have come to the conclusion, personally, that it would be extremely arrogant of me to assume that I know more than the Catholic church, with all of its theologians and its apostolic origins. Not only arrogant, but incorrect. When I do something against church doctrine, I understand that I am opposing what was taught by Christ and am sinning.
When someone is outside the church, they have two impediments to salvation. The first is that they lose the true teachings of Christ and will know his will less clearly. This will lead to sin. The second, and more fundamental problem is that when they sin, they no longer have access to the graces available through the sacraments (particularly reconciliation). These two, in combination, make salvation problematic for the non-Catholic.
Could a non-Catholic refrain from sin and never need to be reconciled? Well, I suppose its possible, but it would be difficult to do without knowing exactly what sin is and that knowledge is only complete within the Catholic church.
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Danno2281
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Excommunication, removal from the Body of Christ, the Church, happens (as I understand it) when one commits mortal sin even though there is no formal pronouncement (we cannot know the heart), but when the sin is of a public nature, as in open disobedience to the magesterium after being made aware of the truth of the magesterium, the the Church, both for the good of the Church as a whole and for the disobedient person to be made aware of the gravity of his situation, issues a formal excommunication, not so much for a sin, but for the encouraging of others to sin. Those who practice birth control, even NFP, without just cause, imperil their own salvation, but the private nature of the sin gives no cause for a formal excommuniction.
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napad
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No, one is not ex-communicated for a moral sin because as paul c says we are all sinners.
Ex-communication is canonical punishment ( with the intention of drawing the erring party to see the seriousness of their actions) that exiles one from the Church community and can not participate in its life until the penalty is lifted. It can happen automatically for some sins such as abortion. (BTW in the past only a bishop could forgive the sin of abortion but since the popularity of this sin ordinary priests have this facility now)
."…the Church excommunicates not only those who abandon the true faith to embrace schism or heresy, but likewise the members of heretical and schismatic communities who have been born therein. As to the latter, however, it is not question of personal excommunication; the censure overtakes them in their corporate capacity, as members of a community in revolt against the true Church of Jesus Christ.
excommunication is either a jure (by law)
or ab homine (by judicial act of man, i.e. by a judge).
The first is provided by the law itself, which declares that whosoever shall have been guilty of a definite crime( which in cures this penalty) will incur the penalty of excommunication.
**The second **is inflicted by an ecclesiastical prelate, either when he issues a serious order under pain of excommunication or imposes this penalty by judicial sentence and after a criminal trial…"newadvent.org/cathen/05678a.htm
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ron77nyc
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When an infallible declaration has been made such as the one we are discussing (No salvation for non-Catholics) it can’t be reversed by another infallible declaration. This would be evidence that one of them was wrong. The Church could never go there. It would blow their image.
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paul_c
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It has nothing to do with image and everything to do with Truth. The truth does not change.
And your statement (no salvation for non-Catholics) is not what the church teaches. It instead says that Salvation is through the Catholic Church. This means that some that are not Catholics could be saved by the action and teachings of the Catholic Church.
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lookstare
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First, many appear to have a very narrow understanding of what Catholic means. To many, the Catholic Church is dependant on the Pope being at its head. Meaning then that if any one is to profess that he or she is Catholic, he or she must be under the pastoral care of the Roman Pontiff.
Nothing can be farther from the truth. What makes the Church Catholic is not the Pope, nor his proclamations, but rather the sending forth by Christ (Matthew 28:16-20) to preach, evangelize, and baptize the whole world in the name of the Holy trinity. So the Universality of the Church is not determined by who is in-charge here on earth, but by why, to whom and how we respond as a body of believers to the saving grace of Christ our Lord, as it pertains to the rest of the non convert world.
Nothing can be farther from the truth. What makes the Church Catholic is not the Pope, nor his proclamations, but rather the sending forth by Christ (Matthew 28:16-20) to preach, evangelize, and baptize the whole world in the name of the Holy trinity. So the Universality of the Church is not determined by who is in-charge here on earth, but by why, to whom and how we respond as a body of believers to the saving grace of Christ our Lord, as it pertains to the rest of the non convert world.
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ron77nyc
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It’s not what it has always taught.
Salvation comes from God only. He uses the Church to carry out His plan but He was doing this without the Church too. Proof of those saved by faith before the Church was in existence is in the Old Testament. We are not saved by the actions of the Church but rather by the act of Jesus when He allowed Himself to pay our debt.
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paul_c
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This is a fully Protestant viewpoint, made necessary by your schism with the Catholic Church. You ignore the fact that Christ comissioned Peter to head the church and to bind and lose both in heaven and on earth. This is fully scriptural.
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paul_c
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Danno2281
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ron77nyc
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I know this and I agree with it.
The following was the official dogma and still is to some Catholics. Would you say all popes are in agreement after reading this?
Council of Florence (A.D. 1438-1445) From Cantate Domino — Papal Bull of Pope Eugene IV
It firmly believes, professes, and proclaims that those not living within the Catholic Church, not only pagans, but also Jews and heretics and schismatics cannot become participants in eternal life, but will depart “into everlasting fire which was prepared for the devil and his angels” [Matt. 25:41], unless before the end of life the same have been added to the flock; and that the unity of the ecclesiastical body is so strong that only to those remaining in it are the sacraments of the Church of benefit for salvation, and do fastings, almsgiving, and other functions of piety and exercises of Christian service produce eternal reward, and that no one, whatever almsgiving he has practiced, even if he has shed blood for the name of Christ, can be saved, unless he has remained in the bosom and unity of the Catholic Church.
Pope Boniface VIII, Unam Sanctam, Nov. 18, 1302, ex cathedra: “Furthermore, we declare, we proclaim, we define that it is absolutely necessary for salvation that every human creature be subject to the Roman Pontiff.”
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Danno2281
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Though we are all sinners, that does not mean that we are all guilty of mortal****sin. Mortal sin removes from the living Body of Christ more certainly than ecclesiastic excommunication for the excommunicated might have a mental deficiency that exculpates whereas mortal sin, by its nature, admits of no exculpation. This state (mortal sin) destroys the life of grace entirely, and apart from the merciful action of God’s grace, is a final aversion to God. My posting was not intended to define excomunication so much as it was to make clear that the sinfulness of birth control is in and of itself (It declares to the Creator,“I will use Your creative gift, but I refuse to let You use me to create”) a greater danger to the soul than heresy which, although essentially a rebellion against God’s Truth, may at least be excused in some cases and to some degree by ignorance. Those who die in mortal sin perish assuredly; those ecommuicated we leave to God’s mercy.
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paul_c
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But excommunication involves, typically, leading others away from the faith. The reason to separate that person from the Church is so that others are not decieved into thinking that the heresy that is espoused by the heretic is somehow condoned by the church. And I believe that ignorance is never an excuse for getting excommunicated for heresy because prior to the excommunication, the error is explained to the heretic. If the heretic accepts the correction and recants, he will remain in the body of Christ. On the other hand, if he still holds to his errant viewpoint, the Church has no option but to separate him from the flock through excommunication. And rehabilitation, requires recanting and formal acceptance back into the church by the Pope.
Mortal sin is much different. yes, it separates us from God and will keep us from salvation if we are not reconciled. But reconciliation can be done through the sacrament of reconciliation and doesn’t require Papal involvement…
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