Is there salvation outside the Catholic church?

[napad]

Need more be said? Time for a new thread.

Thanks. Yeah.

I think that does it. It is time to go off to more detailed arguments like BOB and BOD are they really Catholic doctrines?

BTW I nice rhyming schema

 

[ron77nyc]

Why do Catholics continue to follow mans teaching instead of “the word of God” (the Bible). God has left His word so we will not go astray, that is all we need. Salvation is for anyone who comes to God through Jesus Christ, repents of their sins,and receives Him as their Lord an Savior. My Bible says who soever will may come. We will be judged by the word (the bible) in the end, not by what the church (man) teaches. Read Ephesians Chapter 2 verses 8-9. I know Christ as my personal Savior. Ralph

I kind of agree with you. The first generation of believers didn’t have any Roman Catholic traditions or dogmas that Catholics are now obligated to accept. They were brought to salvation by the spoken gospel only. We don’t know each individual’s belief about the trinity or Mary or the eucharist. These were not issues for them to debate. They were separated from the world by their confession of the resurrected Jesus and that’s all that was important.

 

[Danno2281]

I kind of agree with you. The first generation of believers didn’t have any Roman Catholic traditions or dogmas that Catholics are now obligated to accept. They were brought to salvation by the spoken gospel only. We don’t know each individual’s belief about the trinity or Mary or the eucharist. These were not issues for them to debate. They were separated from the world by their confession of the resurrected Jesus and that’s all that was important.

1. Off topic
2. Opinion not based upon fact. Read Ignatius, Bishop of Antioch and Clement of Rome, just for openers. Clement is Bishop or Rome before the turn of the century when John the Apostle is still alive, and Ignatius (d 107) was taught by John.

 

[argonaut]

The Pope says “Yes”.

Nonbelievers Too Can Be Saved, Says Pope

Refers to St. Augustine’s Commentary on Psalm 136(137)
ZE05113005 - 2005-11-30

VATICAN CITY, NOV. 30, 2005 (Zenit.org).-

Whoever seeks peace and the good of the community with a pure conscience, and keeps alive the desire for the transcendent, will be saved even if he lacks biblical faith, says Benedict XVI.

The Pope made this affirmation today at the general audience, commenting on a meditation written by St. Augustine (354-430).

On a rainy morning in Rome, the Holy Father’s meditation, addressed to more than 23,000 people gathered in St. Peter’s Square, concentrated on the suffering of the Jewish people in the Babylonian exile, expressed dramatically in Psalm 136(137).

The Pontiff referred to Augustine’s commentary on this composition of the Jewish people, noting that this “Father of the Church introduces a surprising element of great timeliness.”

Augustine “knows that also among the inhabitants of Babylon there are people who are committed to peace and the good of the community, despite the fact that they do not share the biblical faith, that they do not know the hope of the Eternal City to which we aspire,” Benedict XVI stated.

“They have a spark of desire for the unknown, for the greatest, for the transcendent, for a genuine redemption,” explained the Pope, quoting Augustine.

This spark

“And he says that among the persecutors, among the nonbelievers, there are people with this spark, with a kind of faith, of hope, in the measure that is possible for them in the circumstances in which they live,” the Holy Father continued.

“With this faith in an unknown reality, they are really on the way to the authentic Jerusalem, to Christ,” he clarified.

Continuing with his quotes from Augustine, the Pope added that “God will not allow them to perish with Babylon, having predestined them to be citizens of Jerusalem, on the condition, however, that, living in Babylon, they do not seek pride, outdated pomp and arrogance.”

The Bishop of Rome concluded by inviting those present to pray to the Lord “that he will awaken in all of us this desire, this openness to God, and that those who do not know God may also be touched by his love, so that all of us journey together toward the definitive City and that the light of this City might also shine in our time and in our world.”

zenit.org/article-14695?l=english

 

[ron77nyc]

1. Off topic
2. Opinion not based upon fact. Read Ignatius, Bishop of Antioch and Clement of Rome, just for openers. Clement is Bishop or Rome before the turn of the century when John the Apostle is still alive, and Ignatius (d 107) was taught by John.

It’s not off topic. By today’s standards the early Christians would not be Roman Catholic. If you brought them into the 21st century they would not know most of the catechism. We can safely say that those who were converted by the spoken gospel were not Roman Catholic.

 

[evangelist_1]

THE PERSON ESTABLISHED A RELIGION AND SAID THROUGH THAT CHURCH THAT THOSE OUTSIDE OF HER CANNOT BE SAVED. True the Church without Christ is nothing, but the Church has Christ at her head, and to be in Christ is to be in his Church, which is his body.

If a person accepts Christ in their heart are they automatically a catholic member?

 

[Danno2281]

The Pope says “Yes”.

Nonbelievers Too Can Be Saved, Says Pope

Refers to St. Augustine’s Commentary on Psalm 136(137)
ZE05113005 - 2005-11-30

VATICAN CITY, NOV. 30, 2005 (Zenit.org).-

Whoever seeks peace and the good of the community with a pure conscience, and keeps alive the desire for the transcendent, will be saved even if he lacks biblical faith, says Benedict XVI.

The Pope made this affirmation today at the general audience, commenting on a meditation written by St. Augustine (354-430).

On a rainy morning in Rome, the Holy Father’s meditation, addressed to more than 23,000 people gathered in St. Peter’s Square, concentrated on the suffering of the Jewish people in the Babylonian exile, expressed dramatically in Psalm 136(137).

The Pontiff referred to Augustine’s commentary on this composition of the Jewish people, noting that this “Father of the Church introduces a surprising element of great timeliness.”

Augustine “knows that also among the inhabitants of Babylon there are people who are committed to peace and the good of the community, despite the fact that they do not share the biblical faith, that they do not know the hope of the Eternal City to which we aspire,” Benedict XVI stated.

“They have a spark of desire for the unknown, for the greatest, for the transcendent, for a genuine redemption,” explained the Pope, quoting Augustine.

This spark

“And he says that among the persecutors, among the nonbelievers, there are people with this spark, with a kind of faith, of hope, in the measure that is possible for them in the circumstances in which they live,” the Holy Father continued.

“With this faith in an unknown reality, they are really on the way to the authentic Jerusalem, to Christ,” he clarified.

Continuing with his quotes from Augustine, the Pope added that “God will not allow them to perish with Babylon, having predestined them to be citizens of Jerusalem, on the condition, however, that, living in Babylon, they do not seek pride, outdated pomp and arrogance.”

The Bishop of Rome concluded by inviting those present to pray to the Lord “that he will awaken in all of us this desire, this openness to God, and that those who do not know God may also be touched by his love, so that all of us journey together toward the definitive City and that the light of this City might also shine in our time and in our world.”

zenit.org/article-14695?l=english

1.“With a pure conscience”
2. Not a dogmatic statement.

 

[Danno2281]

It’s not off topic. By today’s standards the early Christians would not be Roman Catholic. If you brought them into the 21st century they would not know most of the catechism. We can safely say that those who were converted by the spoken gospel were not Roman Catholic.

1. We can safely say that those early Christians were indeed Catholic and united too the Church at Rome in belief. Do you think that Stephen understood all of Paul’s teaching (much of which cannot be found in the gospels)? They might not formulate their belief in the same terms (Trinity, for example), but the beliefs would not run counter to what they believed. Learn what we mean by the deposit of faith.
2. Tell me how you know their beliefs, if you know them well enough to “safely” say. I urge you to read their writings if you want to know what you can “safely” say. They are thoroughly Catholic.

 

[argonaut]

Danno2281 wrote:

“1.“With a pure conscience”
2. Not a dogmatic statement.”

What are you saying? Are you disagreeing with Pope Benedict XVI and with Pope John Paul II?

Please state your comment more clearly. Some here keep referring to past history.

Do you want the Church to go back to the way it was before Pope John XXIII?

 

[wisdomseeker]

Why do Catholics continue to follow mans teaching instead of “the word of God” (the Bible). God has left His word so we will not go astray, that is all we need. Salvation is for anyone who comes to God through Jesus Christ, repents of their sins,and receives Him as their Lord an Savior. My Bible says who soever will may come. We will be judged by the word (the bible) in the end, not by what the church (man) teaches. Read Ephesians Chapter 2 verses 8-9. I know Christ as my personal Savior. Ralph

answer me this. were the letters of the Apostles written and sent to which individual person or weret hey written to the Church meaning the leaders of the Church, wherever the Church was to be used to instruct the people?

Galatians 1:9, "As we have said before, so now I say again: If anyone preach a Gospel to you other than that which you have received, let him be Anathema."

 

[ron77nyc]

1. We can safely say that those early Christians were indeed Catholic and united too the Church at Rome in belief. Do you think that Stephen understood all of Paul’s teaching (much of which cannot be found in the gospels)? They might not formulate their belief in the same terms (Trinity, for example), but the beliefs would not run counter to what they believed. Learn what we mean by the deposit of faith.
2. Tell me how you know their beliefs, if you know them well enough to “safely” say. I urge you to read their writings if you want to know what you can “safely” say. They are thoroughly Catholic.

Acts 15
1 Some who had come down from Judea were instructing the brothers, “Unless you are circumcised according to the Mosaic practice, you cannot be saved.”

6 The apostles and the presbyters met together to see about this matter.

28 ‘It is the decision of the holy Spirit and of us not to place on you any burden beyond these necessities, 29 namely, to abstain from meat sacrificed to idols, from blood, from meats of strangled animals, and from unlawful marriage. If you keep free of these, you will be doing what is right. Farewell.’"

This was decided by the Church in Jerusalem under the authority of Peter. Does that sound like the church today?

 

[Danno2281]

Danno2281 wrote:

“1.“With a pure conscience”
2. Not a dogmatic statement.”

What are you saying? Are you disagreeing with Pope Benedict XVI and with Pope John Paul II?

Please state your comment more clearly. Some here keep referring to past history.

Do you want the Church to go back to the way it was before Pope John XXIII?

Clarity and distinctions are essential. What BXVI said was in reference to a passage in Augustine that clearly states that those non-believers in question may head for the Eternal City. but that they are headed in the right direction, they are “on the way” to the truth that is the Catholic Church. He (BXVI)then enjoins us to pray that they not get sidetracked.
I have disagreed with many things that various popes have said, Liberius and Alexander VI to name but a few, but I disagree with no defined statement, not of a pope, nor of a dogmatic council.
If you have been listening to the pope, he has been saying that there is a continuum with, not a break from the past. Given that attitude, the Church is still “the way it was before John XXIII”, but if you mea do I appreciate that there was less disobedience then, that the liturgy was uniform in all places,that genuine catechesis took place, that the desire to convert the world to Christ was more zealous rather than saying that “They’re OK just as they are as long as they are nice people,” if that is what you mean, then, yes, I should much rather have things as they were before Vat II

 

[PJM]

Re: Is there salvation outside the Catholic church?

Yes indeed there is, BUT you miss soooo very much, including the Very real Presence of the God who Created us, in Catholic Holy Communion.

Not a sign, not a symbol, but JESUS HIMSELF

**So why, my friend would you wish to do that:shrug: **

 

[Danno2281]

Acts 15
1 Some who had come down from Judea were instructing the brothers, “Unless you are circumcised according to the Mosaic practice, you cannot be saved.”

6 The apostles and the presbyters met together to see about this matter.

28 ‘It is the decision of the holy Spirit and of us not to place on you any burden beyond these necessities, 29 namely, to abstain from meat sacrificed to idols, from blood, from meats of strangled animals, and from unlawful marriage. If you keep free of these, you will be doing what is right. Farewell.’"

This was decided by the Church in Jerusalem under the authority of Peter. Does that sound like the church today?

Certanly. A council of clergy met under the direction of the Pope and a question was answered with the guidance of the Holy Spirit.

 

[Benadam]

Acts 15

28 ‘It is the decision of the holy Spirit and of us not to place on you any burden beyond these necessities, 29 namely, to abstain from meat sacrificed to idols, from blood, from meats of strangled animals, and from unlawful marriage. If you keep free of these, you will be doing what is right. Farewell.’"

This was decided by the Church in Jerusalem under the authority of Peter. Does that sound like the church today?

You got a point. As far as how it sounds goes. I think it looked like the church today. The structures that formed the mind of that early church are the foundational structures of the church today.

 

[argonaut]

Yes indeed there is, BUT you miss soooo very much, including the Very real Presence of the God who Created us, in Catholic Holy Communion.

Not a sign, not a symbol, but JESUS HIMSELF

**So why, my friend would you wish to do that:shrug: **

Jesus is a part of me every minute. He said the Kingdom of God is within you. I pray to God a lot through out the day and feel Him near. Thinking about how much I love him brings tears. Good tears that Saint Teresa wrote about, they are a gift. I don’t need communion to be near God.

 

[Danno2281]

Jesus is a part of me every minute. He said the Kingdom of God is within you. I pray to God a lot through out the day and feel Him near. Thinking about how much I love him brings tears. Good tears that Saint Teresa wrote about, they are a gift. I don’t need communion to be near God.

“Unless you eat the flesh of the Son of Man and drink His blood,you will not have life in you. Who eats My flesh and drinks My blood has life everlasting, and I will raise him up on the last day.”(Jn:6,54,ff). Why would you not want to share in this joy?

 

[argonaut]

Danno2281

“Unless you eat the flesh of the Son of Man and drink His blood,you will not have life in you. Who eats My flesh and drinks My blood has life everlasting, and I will raise him up on the last day.”(Jn:6,54,ff). Why would you not want to share in this joy?

Thank you for your post. Thinking about this now I can say that I never thought of it as joy. His dying on the cross brought Him pain, and now reading what you wrote…sounds pagan. Thank you, you have made my decision to leave the church easier. I realize I cannot ever take communion again. Thinking of Him brings me joy, I follow Him.

:tiphat: God Bless

Good Bye

 

[ron77nyc]

You got a point. As far as how it sounds goes. I think it looked like the church today. The structures that formed the mind of that early church are the foundational structures of the church today.

My point is this: The early church was not Roman Catholic. It was Jerusalem Catholic without Roman Catholic tradition. The Church at that time didn’t want to burden the new believers with too many rules. Today we have a catechism the size of a dictionary. Is that really necessary? Didn’t Jesus get angry at the Scribes and Pharisees for making it too difficult for people to enter the kingdom?
If we find other churches that bear resemblance to the church at Jerusalem why do we find it necessary to persuade them to accept Roman Catholic tradition?

 

[DLC]

How come the bible says all belivers in christ are priests
How come no passage in the Bible says a priest today must be baptized? If so where?
All believers are priestes to God.
1 Peter 2:9-10

9 But you areA CHOSEN RACE, A royalPRIESTHOOD, A HOLY NATION,A PEOPLE FOR God’s OWN POSSESSION, so that you may proclaim the excellencies of Him who has called you out of darkness into His marvelous light;
NASU