I honestly don’t know how statistics could be applied to quantifying racism based on the apparent fact that if a person is asked if they are racist they would generally say no.How do you know? What data can we look at that supports this assertion? How can we tell if things are getting better or not?
Ender
I beg to differ.I honestly don’t know how statistics could be applied to quantifying racism based on the apparent fact that if a person is asked if they are racist they would generally say no.
My observations are of having grown up in the Deep South and also watch the news and popular media. The US is awash in racism on both sides, compared to other countries.
There are certainly countries more racist than the US, yet we still have a problem.I beg to differ.
This country is no more awash in racism than any other country. People are just more aware of its existence in the US. One of the most racist countries I’ve been to is Japan.
This is part of the problem; most people use anecdotal evidence to support their preconceptions without actually investigating.I honestly don’t know how statistics could be applied to quantifying racism…
I will certainly grant that we perceive ourselves as having a problem with racism, what I deny is its reality. Take these latest two cases of white cops killing black men. They are widely perceived as being racially motivated, yet are there any statistics to back that up? Well, yes and no. There are statistics one can look at but they don’t back up the charge.My observations are of having grown up in the Deep South and also watch the news and popular media. The US is awash in racism on both sides, compared to other countries.
Even if the two cases can be shown to be without a doubt racially motivated I don’t think that by themselves they make the case for racial bias in law enforcement; in other words I wouldn’t make a conclusion about the entirety of law enforcement based on those two cases alone. (note: I am not declaring that there is no racial bias either, only that these two cases alone are inadequate for establishing the claim).This is part of the problem; most people use anecdotal evidence to support their preconceptions without actually investigating.
I will certainly grant that we perceive ourselves as having a problem with racism, what I deny is its reality. Take these latest two cases of white cops killing black men. They are widely perceived as being racially motivated, yet are there any statistics to back that up? Well, yes and no. There are statistics one can look at but they don’t back up the charge.
Can you give us some examples of racism that you have encountered in the US?There are certainly countries more racist than the US, yet we still have a problem.
I don’t live in the US and I when I return I have to “get used” to all of the racism again.
Statistics can also be misleading, ie crime statistics can’t always demonstrate the level of prejudice. For example, per your example one might assume that there is no racism, yet when their is a crime against a black person that is perceived to be unjust there is a lot of turmoil in the black community and demonstrations. In these cases most blacks feel they are being prejudiced against while most whites see this as a non issue. This events clearly reveal the racial division in the US.This is part of the problem; most people use anecdotal evidence to support their preconceptions without actually investigating.
I will certainly grant that we perceive ourselves as having a problem with racism, what I deny is its reality. Take these latest two cases of white cops killing black men. They are widely perceived as being racially motivated, yet are there any statistics to back that up? Well, yes and no. There are statistics one can look at but they don’t back up the charge.
The Bureau of Justice Statistics keeps voluminous data on crimes, criminals, and the justice system, and they have data that is relevant here. One of their categories is called Arrest Related Deaths (ARD) where they analyze all deaths that occur when people are being arrested, pursued, or already in custody of law enforcement agencies.From 2003 through 2009, a total of 4,813 deaths were reported to the Bureau of Justice Statistics’ (BJS) Arrest-Related Deaths (ARD) program. Of these, about 6 in 10 deaths (2,931) were classified as homicides.
bjs.gov/content/pub/pdf/ard0309st.pdf
Now, if there really is racism in this country the statistics should show different percentages in the homicide of whites versus that of blacks. After all, if the narrative being spun about the killings of Michael Brown in Ferguson and Eric Garner in New York is true, the statistics should show it. What they actually show is that the homicide percentage of blacks is virtually identical to that of whites (Table 7).
One does have to be careful with statistics, however, not because what they show is untrue but because what they show is often not what one thinks they show.
Ender
I grew up in South Carolina and I could fill many pages with examples of racism. I am white and Catholic and grew up listening to black jokes. I have also been prejudiced against by lacks. Blacks and whites for many years have lived in two different worlds thanks to the Democrat Party. This will take generations to undo.Can you give us some examples of racism that you have encountered in the US?
I would think that applies to a lot other parts of Asia. I’ve been to Hong Kong and Singapore and believe me, the latter definitely isn’t any better. (I’ve seen an Indian and an Arab nearly come to blows on a bus one time.) I’d even go further and say Asia itself is considerably more iconic for xenophobia whether you’re Indian, Japanese, Chinese, Korean, and yes, even Filipino.I beg to differ.
This country is no more awash in racism than any other country. People are just more aware of its existence in the US. One of the most racist countries I’ve been to is Japan.
No one doubts that there was racism in America in the past. The question here is: to what extent does racism exist today?There is a long history of overt plainly stated racial bias in american law enforcement and policy enforcement from before of the time of the civil war to a time frame within living memory.
This is perhaps a valid question in some other context but it isn’t relevant to the question raised by the OP.There is also the question on whether the descendants of some one that was put at a disadvantage because of policy experience penalties because of the limitations imposed on their parents. There very well may be. And these are things that are difficult to quantify especially since multiple variables are involved.
Yes they can, which is why I made that specific point. Nonetheless they cannot be simply dismissed without some explanation as to why a particular set of numbers doesn’t mean what it seems to imply.Statistics can also be misleading, ie crime statistics can’t always demonstrate the level of prejudice.
The black community (whatever that is) clearly sees extensive racism, but the fact that they believe it exists doesn’t mean it actually exists. What I’m looking for are reasons to believe white on black racism is a significant reality in the US today.For example, per your example one might assume that there is no racism, yet when their is a crime against a black person that is perceived to be unjust there is a lot of turmoil in the black community and demonstrations. In these cases most blacks feel they are being prejudiced against while most whites see this as a non issue. This events clearly reveal the racial division in the US.
The black community votes as a bloc, so there is no reason why you should not recognize it.The black community (whatever that is) clearly sees extensive racism, but the fact that they believe it exists doesn’t mean it actually exists. What I’m looking for are reasons to believe white on black racism is a significant reality in the US today.
Ender
I am simply cautious about lumping blacks together as if they all thought the same. To some extent this is perhaps true, e.g. voting, but it is a mistake to believe all blacks think alike. We know it isn’t true of whites and there is no reason to believe it about others.The black community votes as a bloc, so there is no reason why you should not recognize it.
Again, the effects of past racism are not what is being discussed. The question here is whether racism still exists.As far as looking for reasons white on black racism begin “significant” whether it is or isn’t has little to do with the fact that slavery destroyed the African families and then the institutionalized racism of the Democrat Party undermined blacks confidence in whites.
Why should we be compassionate about a belief that is untrue? How is it helpful to anyone to propagate a fiction, especially one that is as poisonous as believing white society is racist?Certainly things have changed but the damage has been done and while there are blacks who are still alive who witnessed widespread racism, institutional and otherwise this won’t change. Therefore, we Christians should be at least compassionate regarding blacks perceptions of racism instead of discounting them as something that is a figment of their imagination.
Everyone talks about racism but few bother to define it for what it actually is.I’ll go you one further. I believe everybody IS a racist in some manner. We don’t react the same way to all “races” in many ways. Some are outright hostile toward those of another race. Some are mildly distrustful. Some are intimidated in the right circumstance. Some feel an obligation to “right past wrongs” on a racial basis. Some, like Joe Biden, welcome the sight of an “articulate” black person as if it was somehow unexpected that such a person could exist.
Sometimes it’s just plain stupid. I recall, when in college, seeing a black fellow candidate for the college choir of which I was a starting member, and ASSUMED he could sing well. (Don’t all blacks have good singing voices?) He had the worst voice imaginable when I finally heard him sing.
Some prejudices are passive. If we hear a black person speak with a “black” accent, we don’t notice the accent. But when we hear one with a white accent, we do notice. On the other hand, if a person with an Irish name doesn’t sound like he came from Galway, we don’t notice, despite the fact that blacks have been here longer than the Irish.
Sometimes they’re cultural. One sometimes hears “Don’t mess with a Mexican girl or her brother will cut you up.” Nine times out of ten it won’t happen, but the tenth time it just might, because there is a cultural distrust among many Mexicans toward “Anglos” when it comes to “their” women. You could flirt with a thousand girls of Polish extraction and never get cut up by their brothers, because there’s no cultural assumption on the part of Poles that they need to “protect their women” from, say, men of Irish extraction.
The poster said that blacks vote as a block and they do. He didn’t say that they all think alike.I am simply cautious about lumping blacks together as if they all thought the same. To some extent this is perhaps true, e.g. voting, but it is a mistake to believe all blacks think alike. We know it isn’t true of whites and there is no reason to believe it about others.
Bigotry still exists among all people.Again, the effects of past racism are not what is being discussed. The question here is whether racism still exists.
What belief is untrue?Why should we be compassionate about a belief that is untrue? How is it helpful to anyone to propagate a fiction, especially one that is as poisonous as believing white society is racist?
Ender
Making a quick reply now since immediate free time isn’t sufficient for recollecting various studies on racial biases show today. For now I will state that there seem to have been multiple studies that show that the aggregate of behaviours in law enforcement, hiring practices in certain industries, and even behaviour on social and dating sights indicate that significant racial biases exists today, especially against black people (a black male is more likely to be mistaken for a dangerous individual). When I have the time to respond in detail later this evening I can provide for you references to the studies and let you make up your own mind. Let me know if this is the type of response that you are looking for (before I spend the effort on organizing the information into a reply).No one doubts that there was racism in America in the past. The question here is: to what extent does racism exist today?
Given that many people are not familiar with the etymology of words most won’t recognize that as a word of Scandinavian origins and there’s an expectation that it will be mistaken for an adjective form of a racial slur that depending on the area of the USA in which you say it may be of identical pronunciation.Now if you use the totally valid word ‘niggardly’ you are a racist and equated to any death camp guard if not Hitler himself.’
Racism may not be institutionalized as it once was in the past, but there are certainly individuals who are racist. As I said before, the racist individuals I have met are quite a diverse group.Everyone talks about racism but few bother to define it for what it actually is.
When I was a kid and everyone in the South was shamed into hiding their old Confederate Battle Flags and everyone forgot the old times in Dixieland, racism meant ‘death camps’ and ‘attack dogs biting children’ and ‘bombing churches’.
Now if you use the totally valid word ‘niggardly’ you are a racist and equated to any death camp guard if not Hitler himself.
Racism is so broadly used that everyone is guilty of it and can be justifiably used in reaction to almost any activity. It is so broadly defined and used that it has lost any effective real meaning.
It has become a meaningless hot button word that generates far more heat than light.
When I hear someone call someone else a racist or that what they did was racism, my first thought now is ‘So what was this guy right about that upset the bleeter so much?’
Now we cant use words because ignorant people might be offended?Given that many people are not familiar with the etymology of words most won’t recognize that as a word of Scandinavian origins and there’s an expectation that it will be mistaken for an adjective form of a racial slur that depending on the area of the USA in which you say it may be of identical pronunciation.
There is a list of words that I don’t use publically because they are to easily mistaken for insulting. While I am familiar with that word it is among those for which I think it is better to avoid and use a synonym instead like “stingy.”