Is there the chance that children can go to Hell?

[ralphinal]

That does not explain assigning guilt to mere infants. What is inhereted is the base instinct which is sex and the pleasure and emotions it brings with the act. Babies come from sexual unions and that is precisely why in the Christ story, He did not.

Nor, apprently, did his mother.

But this raises the natural question, if sex within marriage is really good, wholesome and surely a gift of Life from God, why couldn’t Jesus be born of the most wonderful gift of all - procreation and why couldnt Mary? Again, its the hang-up Christians seem to have with sex.

Actually, if you knew the Dogma of the Immaculate Conception, you would see where you are wrong. Mary, conceived bu normal parents in the normal way, was prevented from inheriting Original Sin by a singular act of God, that she may be best prepared for the role of Mother of God.

Jesus was not born of a normal couple because he was NOT a normal human, not because Original Sin is sex drive.

We have no hang up about sex

 

[Zooey]

I am not the only one that uses these forums for whom this is a “way too close to home” subject.

I have understood, even reached out, for other points of view because there’s not a moment that goes by that I don’t think about, miss, and yearn for my sons. They were both 20 weeks along…one was still for reasons unknown, and the other was anencephalic.

You mean to tell me that my children (our first son wasn’t baptized…in all the confusion, we forgot …our second was baptized upon birth…unfortunately, we had enough practice to remember) are experiencing God’s wrath? Really?

I do not believe INNOCENT humans will go to hell. I believe that humans tainted with original sin will go to hell, if they’re not saved by Jesus.

We are all born with original sin. Our Blessed Mother, St. John the Baptist (arguably), and Jesus Himself being the exceptions.

To put a human face to this discussion, I give you my sons, Marshall Jacob and Jonah Michael. I do not wish to use them for any other reason than to remind you that these ARE His children, and No God of anyone I know believes these two are in Hell, even purgatory. These are innocent children. (someone will inevitably check my facts thinking I’m doing something wrong…just so y’all know, the date on the camera was always wrong…Marshall was born March 30, 08, and Jonah April 26th, 09).

http://i49.photobucket.com/albums/f253/our_pride/Marshall/MarshallJacob009.jpg

http://i49.photobucket.com/albums/f253/our_pride/Jonah Michael/100_1410.jpg

Respectfully yours,
Heather

Those two little ones are in Heaven.
While you were holding them, & weeping, they were all ready in the arms of Our Lady and their guardian angels.
Marshall and Jonah know you & they love you, and they pray for you every day. They will meet you at Heaven’s doors and take you into their arms.
And there will be no more weeping, for the old things are passed away,and all things are made new.
Forever.

For the sake of my sanity, could you please point me to Scriptural proof of this? I’m not being sarcastic, but as you might imagine, I do want to know where my kids are. I KNOW where I KNOW they are…but I also KNEW at one point I would be a Methodist my whole life. I was wrong.

TIA,
Heather

[bibledrb]2 Kings 12:19-23[/bibledrb]
[bibledrb]Matthew 19:13-14[/bibledrb]
[bibledrb]Isaias 25: 8[/bibledrb]
[bibledrb]Romans 8:28[/bibledrb]
[bibledrb]Romans 8:32[/bibledrb]
[bibledrb]Romans 8:38-39[/bibledrb]
[bibledrb]Apocalypse 21:1-7[/bibledrb]
[bibledrb]Matthew 10:30[/bibledrb]

And death will no more have dominion. It is the last enemy to be destroyed, but death shall be destroyed. In the words of the poet (on the death of his son): “Death, thou shalt die!”
God bless you, my dear, and give you peace. Your wee ones are safe, for underneath them are the Everlasting Arms that spread themselves upon Calvary’s cross, that it might be so.

 

[heathernoel]

The answer that was so mockingly called a “sophist’s answer” is what I am going to stick with here. Not because it’s an easy way out of a debate I don’t like (because it isn’t!), but because I believe it to be true.

It follows from what Scripture teaches us - that we are sinners by nature, and that sin separates us from God.
I find no exemption due to age in the Scriptures (although I wish that I could…).

I don’t read it that way…sorry.

Zooey…God bless you. Thank you. Those are the scriptures that lead me to the belief that my boys and I will be seeing each other again. I just don’t know what scriptures point to them being in hell, kwim?

 

[freedomwriter]

What did Jesus mean in John 3:5? Or Peter in Peter 3:21? Are they not pointing to baptism as being more than a symbol? How can a symbol save you through Jesus Christ?

Jesus did not mean salvation comes through baptism. If that was true then none of the OT saints were ever saved. Jesus meant it as a spiritual cleansing not as literal water baptism. Ezk 36:24-27 It refers to renewal or spiritual cleansing, especially when used in conjuction with spirit. I Peter 3:21 is harder for me to put in words so I will use John MacArthurs commentary. "Peter is not at all refering to water baptism here but rather a figurative immersion into union with Christ as an ark of safety from the judgment of God. The resurrection of Christ demonstrates God’s acceptance of Christ’s sustitutionary death for the sins of those who believe.

 

[Xavierlives]

Well, as you opened the door to your expertise, I will say that it often surprises me when I hear obviously well educated persons, particularly those in the areas of hard science, forensics, law and mathematics, profess a deep belief in a faith system. I am not at all saying such persons ought not have a faith belief, but it does surprise me.

Maybe you are better able to compartmentalize faith from reason. I cannot, particularly when the faith beliefs have been handed down from pre-Enlightenment times.

Don’t think for a moment I do not believe there is a God, even reason can lead to a realization that something begat existence, however, the puny efforts by man over man’s brief time in the universe to “divine” such a nature are mere guesses at best.

At worst, however, I fear man’s nature leads him to secure his own purposes by playing on other men’s fear of the unknown. It is not foolish to note men will concoct all sorts of myths to better placate other men to their purposes. Heaven and Hell: the mythical driver of all salesmen from the dawn of time!!

I’ll be the first to admit if my name were to be changed, it would be changed to Israel, or struggles with God. My faith, my knowledge, my existence is in a taut grip. But what is faith? A belief in something that cannot be easily explained? While my belief is somewhat modeled after organized religion of today, I do not easily find my system fitting within one structured “church.” I find myself settling in a church out of a convenience, but they are more often than not I see these churches as a system of man. I think some are closer than others but I do not say there is an absolute.

I understand your thoughts about heaven and hell and the thought that it is nothing more than a plan by man to keep people in check. You only need to look back 2000 years ago, and see this exact debate was raging: is there an afterlife. Jesus answered some of the issues and left some of it unexplained. The main answer was, it exists. I find this to be a truth, an absolute.

Some would say this is heresy, but I think there has to some room in heaven for a few unaccounted people. And when I say unaccounted, an example would be Noah. He was pre-law, pre-anything and he obviously pleased God. There has to be room in heaven for him. I understand every denomination and otherwise has an answer to this, but my simple answer is, it is not my place to judge. The God I know and love has mercy, he will work it out.

Now this leads to the topic here. My wife and I lost a baby. Now I know people say this child was born into a world of sin and died to a world of sin, but my understanding is this: “for all have sinned and fallen short of the glory of God.” I believe this to mean, all accountable people have sinned and fallen short. Children are not accountable. It is when we started losing that childlike behavior, that childlike thought, and inserting that adult-like rationality, that we suddenly become accountable. Which brings me back to my place in life. I’d love to discard the doctorate, the logic, the world’s thoughts, to just live in the moment of a child for just a bit more and to not be accountable for my actions, but that doesn’t make much sense. I would like to say I have pleased God like Noah, but I also know there is a reason for judgment. Because there are people who do horrible things and I have met some in my life, I know their hearts are not hearts of love. Their hearts are not ones of peace and in the afterlife I know I will not be sharing a place with them.

I doubt I have said this in a fashion that can really adequately explain my thoughts (partially because I have written it in bits and pieces over the day). I’ll be happy to elaborate if need be.

 

[freedomwriter]

Oh. I took the poster to mean that there was no spiritual action involved in baptism, that it was a true sign of something that already happened and had no real effect on us.

Kind of like signing a registration card

Sorry i had already posted my response to you but I did mean that baptism is not a requirement for salvation. Water baptism is an act of obedience by the believer of our witness to Christ

 

[Xavierlives]

One little notation:

I’ll also say that because of childbirth we have also seen a miracle which has given me more faith as of late than anything.

My wife’s midwife decided to move out of state. We started looking for another in the middle of a pregnancy. Ultimately we found a doctor (ob/gyn) who was a little bit father from us but we liked and she agreed to deliver at a nearby local hospital (where two of our other children were born). We got closer to the due date and due to gestational diabetes, we had to select a date for inducement. It just so happens that date she was delivering children at the women and children’s hospital and not our local hospital. We travelled a bit to get there, but all was good. My wife had delivered our natural birth, no drugs (this is imporant in a moment) and that was our plan here. 7 hours into the birth there was cord prolapse. There was an immediate need to a c-section. At that same moment in time, another woman was getting ready to deliver twins (the doctors had knife in hand). Because my wife was delivering natural, they had to put her under (under the use of drugs, they could do it without putting her out). Afterwards the doctor said, you know, if we would have delivered at the local hospital, we would have lost the baby. At that moment in time at this specialized hospital, everything was in place for her delivery. The other team of doctors was there waiting to deliver a baby with anthesesia. They pushed her out of the way and pushed my wife in place and delivered our daughter. There are too many events in that long story (some I have left out for brevity) for it to be coincidence (I see this a teacher of argumentation). It is off the scale and is one of the things that gives me my faith that there is a God.

 

[tbcrawford]

As catholics we celebrate the feast of Holy Innocents.These babies were not baptised and yet we celebrate them with a feast day.
Catholics who think we leave it to God’s discretion about babies going to heaven if unbaptised…
Please speak to your priest.The Catholic church very much promotes the fact children go to heaven whether baptised or not.They are innocents and it is the parents fault if they are not baptiesd not the childs! In the early church babies were not baptised only adults,so any babies that would have died without baptism at that time are protected by God’s love also in heaven.

Father Vincent Serpa Apologist here at CAF has confirmed what i have already been told by other priests ever since my children died.

 

[RachelM]

As a teacher, I have on very rare occasion run across a child that I was not sure wasn’t just naughty, or bad, or troubled, but evil. These are children who take delight in physically emotionally hurting those around them and put together very sophisticated plans to do so and have no remorse whatsoever for the actions when caught. I’ve thought about what must happen to those children should they meet with an early demise.

As one trained in Psychology/Counseling and just as a common sense human being, I would answer that there is no such thing as a purely “evil” child in the way I believe you are stating it. There is rather, more often than not, an underlying psychological illness that brings about various horrendous behaviors in children. If left untreated or if the illnesses are resistant to treatment then these children can grow up to be some of the horrific criminals we read about in our news media or see on our televisions. I tend to think that if such an afflicted child were to die, that God in His mercy would not necessarily hold the soul of that child responsible for the body’s mental illness. I have no reason to believe this other than my Faith in the immensity of God’s love and mercy. I also know that whatever God’s decisions regarding such children and adults, it is the right one because God’s divine will is always right.

 

[Agripa]

I doubt I have said this in a fashion that can really adequately explain my thoughts (partially because I have written it in bits and pieces over the day). I’ll be happy to elaborate if need be.

You speak with thoughtful reason and understanding. It is appreciated!

For me, I suppose I have long suspected that there is a notion of Heaven and Hell simply because humans want it to be. They greatly fear the notion that after we die, there is but oblivion, nothingness. I find that facinating because they replaced the notion of mere oblivion with a kind of game, a choosing game: Pick door # 1 by jumping through a lot of hoops in this life, and you get to be in paradise with a loving God and you will rejoice with Him forever and ever, but pick door # 2 by failing to jump through certain hoops and that same God will cast you into Hell for all eternity to burn forever and ever and ever.

And the funny thing is, most religions, certainly all the Christian ones, hold to this paradigm to one degree or another. And pushing that concept further, the result in this life is a religion suddenly has a lot of ardent followers who may fear for the afterlife, but now have a roadmap to redeem themselves by simply following the dictates of the religion IN THIS LIFE! Hence the benefit to the Heaven and Hell story has direct, tangible results in the here and now regardless of what happens after we die.

But what of Nothingness?? In “Ye Olden Times”, before we knew about nerves and cells and the mechanics of conciousness, most peasants and kings assumed awareness was a spiritual matter tied to an inner soul, which could not be destroyed and so, when seperated from the body, it was imagined to return immediately to its Maker who would judge it for its journey whilst in the body.

But is Nothingness so bad? And even if we accept Nothingness, are we still not motivated by human awarenesses and sensitivities to be kind to others, to relieve pain, to seek advancement, to simply make this “bubble” called life the best experience not only for ourselves and families, but for others as well??

 

[ralphinal]

Jesus did not mean salvation comes through baptism. If that was true then none of the OT saints were ever saved. Jesus meant it as a spiritual cleansing not as literal water baptism. Ezk 36:24-27 It refers to renewal or spiritual cleansing, especially when used in conjuction with spirit. I Peter 3:21 is harder for me to put in words so I will use John MacArthurs commentary. "Peter is not at all refering to water baptism here but rather a figurative immersion into union with Christ as an ark of safety from the judgment of God. The resurrection of Christ demonstrates God’s acceptance of Christ’s sustitutionary death for the sins of those who believe.

Sorry i had already posted my response to you but I did mean that baptism is not a requirement for salvation. Water baptism is an act of obedience by the believer of our witness to Christ

Once God made a deal with Abraham, Circumcision was the sign of the covenant. Baptism replaced it. However, it is incorrect to see baptism as only an outward sign. To do that denies the power of the Holy Spirit within the sacrament as well as being problematic scripturally and historically.

We see that through baptism, we are united with the Body of Christ that is the Church. We are now part of the New Covenant, just like the other act made you part of the old, though it contained no spiritual changes. Through Baptism, we are made new creatures in Christ.

The idea that baptism is only an outward sign and contains no inward change is not found in the early Church.

 

[Charlotte408]

From a Catholic and non-Catholic perspective, is there a chance that children can go to hell?

Well IM gonna take a leap and say NO. Heres why I think not…

‘Those that have been given much, much has been expected, and those who have been given little, will be judged accordingly’ <—it goes something like that, I’m sure you guys know what I’m talking about though.

By children I’m assuming you mean, soemthing like 13 and down…anyways…

So from what Ive been told, is first, theres the quote above. You can only be held accountable to what you know…so…like, a child is going to have limited knowledge…and then even beyond that, like, lets say that they have a pretty good knowledge, theres also the whole thing (when it comes to sin) about the mental state your in when the sin occured. Were you under duress? Were you mentally, idk, incompetent for, whatever reason idk…theres a bunch of scenarios that, dont automatically make it OK to sin, but, its just different…

Theres this thing, cognitive thinking…that children evolve as they grow. Small children, seriously think the world revolves around them…and as they grow, their cognitive thinking/reasoning expands…they are able to think ahead of their actions, cause/effect, etc…

So I would say, a small child, wouldnt have the capacity to complete understand the gravity of their actions, the effects of it on other people…know what I mean??? And children, are sooo precious…They truly are, the light of God- they HAVE to be. As a mother, I cant look at my kid, and think that this innocence in purest form- isnt a blessing from heaven. How could he judge a child??? I can only imagine, confronted with a child (5) that was, lets say, put to death for murdering another child (5), I can only imagine him hugging the baby and saying ‘my child, welcome home, everything is going to be alright now – now go play’ and I’m sure he’d run into that other kid on the playground in heaven and the other kid would have nothing but forgiveness in his heart…

 

[Charlotte408]

*But what of Nothingness?? In “Ye Olden Times”, before we knew about nerves and cells and the mechanics of conciousness, most peasants and kings assumed awareness was a spiritual matter tied to an inner soul, which could not be destroyed and so, when seperated from the body, it was imagined to return immediately to its Maker who would judge it for its journey whilst in the body. *

You know what else I heard? slightly off topic but just makin’ convo-

I’ve heard it said that, the soul is made up of energy…and that energy is always flowing, moving, it doesnt STOP anywhere…so like, when we did, our souls have to go somewheres…

i have no freakn clue if its true or not, our souls being composed of pure energy?? but…just thought i’d throw that out there…

But you were saying about ‘nothingness’…I think about this ALL the time. Some people say like, what if death is just like, an eternal sleep? of nothingness like when you sleep without dreams??

But even on those nights when I’m PASSED out, and dont have dreams, at some point throughout the night, I’m aware that I’m sleeping, and aware of the nothingness. This SCARES the carp outta me cuz if this is what happens after we pass…I’m gonna miss my daughter sooooooooo much…oh it hurts my heart just thinking about it.

And THEN, you have to admit, that one NEVER sleeps without dreaming. Even if you dont REMEMBER them when you wake up, supposedly we have hundreds of dreams a night…could it be that when we die, we are in a state of ‘slumber’ where we believe we are alive, but arent, and are really just living through constant dreams??? memories of our physical life??? That could be torture…especially if you lived a messed up life on earth…

 

[Agripa]

You have helped make my point - you say it scares you because you will miss your daughter sooo much - that is a normal, human feeling and fear, yet I propose what if we simply die? We will no longer be cognizant of anything, good or bad. We wont have those feelings anymore. We simply will no longer “be”.

This idea is often very hard emotionally for a lot of people to grapple with, much less accept. We want there to be a continuous line of feeling and awareness from life into death - we want to carry our awareness into an afterlife and we want to hope to see our loved ones “there”.

In addition, given the innate unfairnesses in an imperfect world where we are exposed to people and events that we term as evil, we know in this life there are people who desrve punishment and often they escape it. Thus, in a mythical place like hell, we can rest assured in this life that evil doers will get their reward some how and in some way in an afterlife.

 

[Zooey]

Agripa:

Thus, in a mythical place like hell, we can rest assured in this life that evil doers will get their reward some how and in some way in an afterlife.

Hell is not mythical. Hell is separation from God. Hell is the refusal of man to yield to God, the refusal to say “My Lord & My God!”.
For those who so refuse…God is a Gentleman. He does not drag people kicking & screaming through the gates of Heaven…He sadly, but inevitably, allows then the freedom to go to hell. To be separated from Him for all eternity…because they have chosen to rebel against Him.

But He does not send little children to hell. He says, as He said, all those years ago, on that Judean hillside:
[BIBLEDRB]Matthew 19:13-14[/BIBLEDRB]

The question of what happens to a young person who rebels against God: That is what I supposed was the subject of this thread when I began to post…and I gave my thoughts.
Not once did it cross my mind that anyone would imagine that little children—babies!!–could be, would be, excluded from Heaven. Not one verse in Scripture even suggests such a thing.

 

[tbcrawford]

The Feast of the Holy Innocents Martyrs is celebrated 28th December in the Catholic Church.
All children who have died before baptism go to heaven.The Holy Innocents were not baptised as in those days adult baptism was the norm.Yet we know the Holy Innocents are in heaven with Our Lord

Father,
the Holy Innocents offered you praise
by the death they suffered for Christ.
May our lives bear witness
to the faith we profess with our lips.
We ask this through our Lord Jesus Christ,
your Son, who lives and reigns with you and the Holy Spirit,
one God, for ever and ever. Amen

 

[heathernoel]

Amen!

 

[tbcrawford]

The Feast of the Holy Innocent

1. Since the sixth century, on December 28, the Church has celebrated the memory of those children killed because of Herod’s rage against Christ (cf. Mt 2:16-17). Liturgical tradition refers to them as the “Holy Innocents” and regards them as martyrs. Throughout the centuries Christian art, poetry and popular piety have enfolded the memory of the “tender flock of lambs”(125) with sentiments of tenderness and sympathy. These sentiments are also accompanied by a note of indignation against the violence with which they were taken from their mothers’ arms and killed.

In our own times, children suffer innumerable forms of violence which threaten their lives, dignity and right to education. On this day, it is appropriate to recall the vast host of children not yet born who have been killed under the cover of laws permitting abortion, which is an abominable crime. Mindful of these specific problems, popular piety in many places has inspired acts of worship as well as displays of charity which provide assistance to pregnant mothers, encourage adoption and the promotion of the education of children.

As recorded in the gospel of Matthew

 

[freedomwriter]

Once God made a deal with Abraham, Circumcision was the sign of the covenant. Baptism replaced it. However, it is incorrect to see baptism as only an outward sign. To do that denies the power of the Holy Spirit within the sacrament as well as being problematic scripturally and historically.

We see that through baptism, we are united with the Body of Christ that is the Church. We are now part of the New Covenant, just like the other act made you part of the old, though it contained no spiritual changes. Through Baptism, we are made new creatures in Christ.

The idea that baptism is only an outward sign and contains no inward change is not found in the early Church./QUOTE

Noway did Baptism replace anything. It is an act of obedience to the christian to get water baptized. Not for salvation. We are made new at the time of salvation II Cor 5:17. If baptism is not an act of salvation then what inward changes occur. Christians who gave their lives to Christ but did not do baptism at the time of death are not keep out of the Kingdom of God. It is foolish to say that they would go to hell because the didn’t get baptized.

 

[Bill_Pick]

Hell is not mythical. Hell is separation from God. Hell is the refusal of man to yield to God, the refusal to say “My Lord & My God!”.
For those who so refuse…God is a Gentleman. He does not drag people kicking & screaming through the gates of Heaven…He sadly, but inevitably, allows then the freedom to go to hell. To be separated from Him for all eternity…because they have chosen to rebel against Him.

But He does not send little children to hell. He says, as He said, all those years ago, on that Judean hillside:
[BIBLEDRB]Matthew 19:13-14[/BIBLEDRB]

The question of what happens to a young person who rebels against God: That is what I supposed was the subject of this thread when I began to post…and I gave my thoughts.
Not once did it cross my mind that anyone would imagine that little children—babies!!–could be, would be, excluded from Heaven. Not one verse in Scripture even suggests such a thing.

Amen Brother