Is there the chance that children can go to Hell?

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Zooey said:
Hell is not mythical. Hell is separation from God. Hell is the refusal of man to yield to God, the refusal to say “My Lord & My God!”.
For those who so refuse…God is a Gentleman. He does not drag people kicking & screaming through the gates of Heaven…He sadly, but inevitably, allows then the freedom to go to hell. To be separated from Him for all eternity…because they have chosen to rebel against Him.

But He does not send little children to hell. He says, as He said, all those years ago, on that Judean hillside:
[BIBLEDRB]Matthew 19:13-14[/BIBLEDRB]

The question of what happens to a young person who rebels against God: That is what I supposed was the subject of this thread when I began to post…and I gave my thoughts.
Not once did it cross my mind that anyone would imagine that little children—babies!!–could be, would be, excluded from Heaven. Not one verse in Scripture even suggests such a thing.
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Amen, Brother
 
freedomwriter said:
ralphinal;5954634:
Once God made a deal with Abraham, Circumcision was the sign of the covenant. Baptism replaced it. However, it is incorrect to see baptism as only an outward sign. To do that denies the power of the Holy Spirit within the sacrament as well as being problematic scripturally and historically.

We see that through baptism, we are united with the Body of Christ that is the Church. We are now part of the New Covenant, just like the other act made you part of the old, though it contained no spiritual changes. Through Baptism, we are made new creatures in Christ.

The idea that baptism is only an outward sign and contains no inward change is not found in the early Church.
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Why did Jesus say to baptise all men? Why did Peter, Paul, and others say to people to be baptised? Why did the epistles talk about baptism as being the sign of the new covenant?

Do a search for it. Baptism is to Christians as Circumcision is to Jews.

Read this article newadvent.org/cathen/02258b.htm. It has good info including early Church info and Bible verses

This is another good one
christusrex.org/www1/CDHN/baptism.html
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Agripa said:
You speak with thoughtful reason and understanding. It is appreciated!

For me, I suppose I have long suspected that there is a notion of Heaven and Hell simply because humans want it to be. They greatly fear the notion that after we die, there is but oblivion, nothingness. I find that facinating because they replaced the notion of mere oblivion with a kind of game, a choosing game: Pick door # 1 by jumping through a lot of hoops in this life, and you get to be in paradise with a loving God and you will rejoice with Him forever and ever, but pick door # 2 by failing to jump through certain hoops and that same God will cast you into Hell for all eternity to burn forever and ever and ever.

And the funny thing is, most religions, certainly all the Christian ones, hold to this paradigm to one degree or another. And pushing that concept further, the result in this life is a religion suddenly has a lot of ardent followers who may fear for the afterlife, but now have a roadmap to redeem themselves by simply following the dictates of the religion IN THIS LIFE! Hence the benefit to the Heaven and Hell story has direct, tangible results in the here and now regardless of what happens after we die.

But what of Nothingness?? In “Ye Olden Times”, before we knew about nerves and cells and the mechanics of conciousness, most peasants and kings assumed awareness was a spiritual matter tied to an inner soul, which could not be destroyed and so, when seperated from the body, it was imagined to return immediately to its Maker who would judge it for its journey whilst in the body.

But is Nothingness so bad? And even if we accept Nothingness, are we still not motivated by human awarenesses and sensitivities to be kind to others, to relieve pain, to seek advancement, to simply make this “bubble” called life the best experience not only for ourselves and families, but for others as well??
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(Sorry of the lapse–Sometimes work gets in the way of my internet chatting life)

Well, while nothing might be appealing, but it doesn’t make much sense to me. Why would God set me and this world spinning for but a glimmer of time and then I fizzle into nothing. Here is where my true “protestant” colors will shine: I don’t think there is any answer for what heaven is going to be like. Jesus said he was going to prepare a place which means to me it is currently in an incomplete state. I do agree there is a place called “paradise” which sounds like a decent place and then there is a place called “sheol” which doesn’t sound so nice. In the grand scheme I sometimes think it will be like my favorite city, but it will be clean, and the busses will run on time, and I won’t need money to get into the museums, and if I want to see a show, I can get second row. Sometimes I think of my happiest moments and think, that is a tenth of heaven. I just feel happy about heaven. And I just don’t think I could ever get happy about nothing.
 
ralphinal said:
freedomwriter;5956768:
Why did Jesus say to baptise all men? Why did Peter, Paul, and others say to people to be baptised? Why did the epistles talk about baptism as being the sign of the new covenant?

Do a search for it. Baptism is to Christians as Circumcision is to Jews.
Click to expand...
Read this article newadvent.org/cathen/02258b.htm. It has good info including early Church info and Bible verses

This is another good one
christusrex.org/www1/CDHN/baptism.html

Just a couple of points of difference:
  1. I can be circumcised but once.
  2. Women cannot be circumcised.
  3. Circumcision would be a somewhat private thing (there is a ceremony)
  4. Circumcision physically marked his people (the men)
Now, the other part of this that has confounded me for ages is this…err… point:
Either modesty was a bit different or there was a lot of displaying of missing foreskin that other non-Jews would take note of this. Which just does not seem likely to me, so I am back to, it is a private covenant.

Some other things to think about are:
What does the old covenant get the Jews?
What does the new coventant get the Christians?
Isn’t a covenant an contract?
While some will say man has free will, if my parents baptize me, do I have free will?
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Xavierlives said:
ralphinal;5957160:
Just a couple of points of difference:
  1. I can be circumcised but once.
  2. Women cannot be circumcised.
  3. Circumcision would be a somewhat private thing (there is a ceremony)
  4. Circumcision physically marked his people (the men)
Now, the other part of this that has confounded me for ages is this…err… point:
Either modesty was a bit different or there was a lot of displaying of missing foreskin that other non-Jews would take note of this. Which just does not seem likely to me, so I am back to, it is a private covenant.
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In the end, it was between God and Man, not man and man, though other Jews would know about it. As to why women were not included in some way (by a different act, not in favor of FGM), I do not know. Baptism, in the end, is the same way (Totally private, no visible outward signs after the fact).
Some other things to think about are:
What does the old covenant get the Jews?
What does the new coventant get the Christians?
Isn’t a covenant an contract?
While some will say man has free will, if my parents baptize me, do I have free will?
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The old covenant was a sign of just that: they were God’s Chosen people and he was their God.

The New Covenant changes the rules, so to speak. We are no under the Mosaic law but under the new law.

A covenant is not a contract. A contract can be broken, changed, and expire. A covenant has no such language. Failure of one party to perform does not release the other party from it.

Yes. Even though your parents chose to baptize you, you can still walk away from the faith. Granted, you will remain baptized, but that does not mean you have to remain Christian
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Xavierlives said:
Well, while nothing might be appealing, but it doesn’t make much sense to me. Why would God set me and this world spinning for but a glimmer of time and then I fizzle into nothing. . . . And I just don’t think I could ever get happy about nothing.
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Because it does not make sense to us, mere humans. We want for there to be “more to the story” than just the simple span of years that briefly stretch from birth to death. We desire a greater purpose, and yet, as far as we rationally know, there is nought but this life, and no one has ever directly returned to tell us of another. Yes, there are the resurrection stories (there were lots of them in pre enlightenment times - Jesus was actually one of many figures about which there were tales of resurrection.) But to me, I think we simply want very badly to believe these tales.

I will agree, its hard to accept the Nothingness reality. But at the same time, it really makes one focus on his actions in this life, it makes life all that more precious and delicate.
 
Agripa said:
Because it does not make sense to us, mere humans. We want for there to be “more to the story” than just the simple span of years that briefly stretch from birth to death. We desire a greater purpose, and yet, as far as we rationally know, there is nought but this life, and no one has ever directly returned to tell us of another. Yes, there are the resurrection stories (there were lots of them in pre enlightenment times - Jesus was actually one of many figures about which there were tales of resurrection.) But to me, I think we simply want very badly to believe these tales.

I will agree, its hard to accept the Nothingness reality. But at the same time, it really makes one focus on his actions in this life, it makes life all that more precious and delicate.
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Well from an early time (and I think the Catholics can probably discuss this better) there was mention or implication that there was more to life. The Bible never “explained” the afterlife but it wasn’t a fire & brimstone keep-man-in-control type of concept. It was pretty simple: Enoch walked with God and was taken. Now I am making the assumption that he wasn’t taken into nothing. Now, obviously to accept that, you have to accept the Torah as valid, but the main point I am making is, I can’t see God plucking people from their existance into nothing. It also goes to your point that someone can live right by God and go to paradise.

Wouldn’t it be fantastic if we could all just walk with God and not pay taxes… oops, I mean not die, 🙂
 
By the time of Jesus, there were two schools of thought within Judaism. Some said that at death, you gained rest (nothingness?). The other said that with death comes an afterlife. Most of them held that there was to be a resurrection. Jesus was from that camp, and as we accept him as KNOWING the Truth, we hold that there is an afterlife and a resurrection of the body.

Eternal hell is not as clear. Most Jews who accept an afterlife have no concept of it. Their idea would be closer to purgatory: at some point you are freed from the suffering to be with God. Now, many modern Jews that accept the idea of eternal hell do so because men can be so evil that, in some cases, it is warranted (Hitler). Again, as Jesus spoke of eternal hell, we hold that position as well.

Hell can be oversold. There is supposed to be an understanding that there is hope for heaven and that is our goal, not just the avoidance of hell.
 
Xavierlives said:
Well from an early time (and I think the Catholics can probably discuss this better) there was mention or implication that there was more to life. The Bible never “explained” the afterlife but it wasn’t a fire & brimstone keep-man-in-control type of concept. It was pretty simple: Enoch walked with God and was taken. Now I am making the assumption that he wasn’t taken into nothing. Now, obviously to accept that, you have to accept the Torah as valid, but the main point I am making is, I can’t see God plucking people from their existance into nothing. It also goes to your point that someone can live right by God and go to paradise.

Wouldn’t it be fantastic if we could all just walk with God and not pay taxes… oops, I mean not die, 🙂
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Well, as an agnostic, I don’t necessarily discount a rational, broader spectrum to existence than what we can “see” or experience though our senses and through natural or scientific inquiry.

But if there is something after our natural lives, what I avoid doing is assigning a human construct to it. Take for instance a notion of “heaven” as a city. Why would heaven be a city? God never created any cities that I heard about, only man does that and in fact, man creates the best and worst of cities!

I hear people talking about “mansions” in heaven, streets paved in gold, eating at big tables of food, all of that - but notice how these are the very things most humans want in this life! Heck, even the lecherous Muslims expect Allah to provide them with 40 virgins in the afterlife! As you can see, it gets rather ridiculous to think that would actually be true.

Rather, if there is some other existance beyond this life then whatever essense of “us” gets there, its not necessarily going to be a “human” construct. I expect it would be simply some other natural state that is not unlike the rest of the natural world. :rolleyes:
 
Agripa said:
Well, as an agnostic, I don’t necessarily discount a rational, broader spectrum to existence than what we can “see” or experience though our senses and through natural or scientific inquiry.

But if there is something after our natural lives, what I avoid doing is assigning a human construct to it. Take for instance a notion of “heaven” as a city. Why would heaven be a city? God never created any cities that I heard about, only man does that and in fact, man creates the best and worst of cities!

I hear people talking about “mansions” in heaven, streets paved in gold, eating at big tables of food, all of that - but notice how these are the very things most humans want in this life! Heck, even the lecherous Muslims expect Allah to provide them with 40 virgins in the afterlife! As you can see, it gets rather ridiculous to think that would actually be true.

Rather, if there is some other existance beyond this life then whatever essense of “us” gets there, its not necessarily going to be a “human” construct. I expect it would be simply some other natural state that is not unlike the rest of the natural world. :rolleyes:
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Thats why I don’t accept my concept of what I want heaven to be like as reality, The only really good discription given about the after life actually makes no mention of buildings, roads, or anything man-made or man-like. My “description” was more like a “would this be fun” kind of statement.
 
Zooey said:
But He does not send little children to hell. He says, as He said, all those years ago, on that Judean hillside:
[BIBLEDRB]Matthew 19:13-14[/BIBLEDRB]
Click to expand...
Even without looking it up, I think I can say with some certainty that the point you’re trying to make is NOT the one Jesus is making.
Jesus does NOT say that children get free passes - that they’re saved automatically. He uses the way the just…trust as a rolemodel for us, for how we are to relate to God. We are to have the same kind of trust in Him as small children have in their parents.
Zooey said:
Not once did it cross my mind that anyone would imagine that little children—babies!!–could be, would be, excluded from Heaven. Not one verse in Scripture even suggests such a thing.
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I can find several that do suggest that no one get free passes to Paradise. Let’s start with John 3:5?
 
LutheranDK said:
Even without looking it up, I think I can say with some certainty that the point you’re trying to make is NOT the one Jesus is making.
Jesus does NOT say that children get free passes - that they’re saved automatically. He uses the way the just…trust as a rolemodel for us, for how we are to relate to God. We are to have the same kind of trust in Him as small children have in their parents.

I can find several that do suggest that no one get free passes to Paradise. Let’s start with John 3:5?
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And yet another classic example of making sure any given quote from Jesus shall mean exaclty what we want it to mean. I think we are safe to assume even old Jesus did not expect kids to burn in hell. 👍
 
Agripa said:
And yet another classic example of making sure any given quote from Jesus shall mean exaclty what we want it to mean. I think we are safe to assume even old Jesus did not expect kids to burn in hell. 👍
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Shh… you don’t believe in the guy!

j/k 😃
 
Grace & Peace!
ralphinal said:
Hell can be oversold. There is supposed to be an understanding that there is hope for heaven and that is our goal, not just the avoidance of hell.
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This is indeed such an important concept in all of this, and one of the most easily forgotten or overlooked. Our hope is a positive hope–that God will heal us, wed us (to use the mystical language of Revelation), and make us, by grace, to be like him (theosis). Insofar as “heaven” is shorthand for relationship with the Father, through Jesus Christ, in the grace of the Spirit, then it’s so much more than one end of a pleasure/pain continuum, and that much more beyond a conception of religion which sees faith as a means of keeping oneself out of hell.

The experience of heaven or hell as they are popularly conceived is immaterial to the fundamental goal of the Christian faith–union with God. If heaven were filled with all the bliss imaginable, but absent the Lover of Souls, what hell could compare with it? If hell were filled with all suffering imaginable, but one was united in it with the Lord of Love, what joy could surpass it? Ultimately, our goal is not to get into heaven, nor is it to avoid hell. Our goal is to be with our Lord.

Under the Mercy,
Mark

All is grace and mercy! Deo gratias!
 
Most children reach the age of reason around 6 or 7 years old. After that they have to choose God or not choose Him, like the rest of us.
 
Sword_Brethren said:
Most children reach the age of reason around 6 or 7 years old. After that they have to choose God or not choose Him, like the rest of us.
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What is your biblical support for this? What about severely mentally handicapped kids? With a name like “Sword Brethren”, I am might suspect you are impatient with any who dare split theological hairs, but I am still curious! And what is with that blood red cross and sword, dude? Is there a Chrisitan Taliban that I need to be aware of? 👍
 
Agripa said:
What is your biblical support for this? What about severely mentally handicapped kids? With a name like “Sword Brethren”, I am might suspect you are impatient with any who dare split theological hairs, but I am still curious! And what is with that blood red cross and sword, dude? Is there a Chrisitan Taliban that I need to be aware of? 👍
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Well I like to use the verses:
Matthew 26:52
Then said Jesus unto him, Put up again thy sword into his place: for all they that take the sword shall perish with the sword.

Ephesians 6:17
And take the helmet of salvation, and the sword of the Spirit, which is the word of God:

So if I take up the sword of the spirit, I shall die with it.

(but I am not the man with the red sword icon so what do I know? :))
 
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