Is there the chance that children can go to Hell?

[Shin]

I know some saints and Popes have testified to children going to Hell, younger children than we might think.

Pope St. Gregory the Great testifies to a five year old who went to Hell because the father spoiled the child, and spared the rod, and this as revealed by God.

However, I tend not to tell those stories as they are too fearsome and chilling. They speak to the grave responsibilities parents have, and how indulging selfishness in children from a young age is a great evil.

Today people treat mortal sins very lightly. It does not make them less mortal than they were yesterday.

Anyone who looks long and hard at his own conscience knows that we do many things for selfish reasons, not for the sake of God. These things are not good… because we do them for our own sakes, even when exteriorly they appear good. God is good.

We require supernatural goodness to enter into Heaven. Not only natural, self interested ‘goodness’. The reward is high… the stakes are high…

We are born before baptism, as the scriptures themselves state plainly ‘children of wrath’ that is, not in union with God. Heaven is not a given, it is not the starting destination, it is a great gratis.

Not a single person who died before Christ went to Heaven until He came. Zero. The majority of human history. Even the great patriarchs, Moses, Abraham, they had to wait for Christ to open the gates. Adam had to wait. A very long time.

What joy when the gates finally opened? And yet how long the wait.

The place where they waited is sometimes called ‘the Paradise of the Fathers’ or the ‘Limbo of the Fathers’. It is basically the next life without the beatific vision, and any lack of that is considered ‘the edge of Hell’, because of that separation from God. It can be of perfect natural happiness (as long as one has no personal sins to be punished for).

Heaven simply is not the default destination for man. Even Adam and Eve were not born defaulting to it, they were put to the test, and failed, so we are not even born with as good a starting position as they.

 

[LutheranDK]

Kids meet the age of reasoning at 8 Or 9 You will have to ask My Lord to get the right age from Him

I never received a response when I asked another poster to tell me why he chose that exact age. Can you give me one?
Just blurting out numbers is not kosher…

Secondly - even your own reasoning here must then mean that kids at least CAN go to hell. If they become responsible for their own actions at age 8-9 (and again: At what exact time during that period does it happen?), then you must also say that that possibility exists.

Otherwise, you’re just contradicting yourself (dare I say…“again”? )

 

[Zundrah]

Kids meet the age of reasoning at 8 Or 9 You will have to ask My Lord to get the right age from Him

Show me this quote from the catechism.

A pint has alcohol. Geez… now someone tells me.

…meh, honestly. Beer is disgusting! My mum use to be an alcoholic so as a result I can’t bear the smell or taste of it!

***Zandra,

The Catholic Church cannot, has not and will not change any defined doctrine or dogma. Period end of story.***

Love and prayers,

Pat

Show mw the doctrine then. I’d like to see it.

Zandra is conditionally correct in her expression of the teachiong of the Catholic Church. Please see POST # 165 on this string for details.

---

The issue is “age of reason” or not.***
I cannot imagine you’re pain.

---

Love and prayers,***

Pat

8 or 9? Honestly who made up these stupid figures!?

 

[RachelM]

It appears to me that the “discussions” in the topic have become more about arguing for its own sake. Scripture warns us to avoid this. For your consideration:

1 Timothy 6:3-5 (New King James Version)

3 If anyone teaches otherwise and does not consent to wholesome words, even the words of our Lord Jesus Christ, and to the doctrine which accords with godliness, 4 he is proud, knowing nothing, but is obsessed with disputes and arguments over words, from which come envy, strife, reviling, evil suspicions, 5 useless wrangling of men of corrupt minds and destitute of the truth, who suppose that godliness is a means of gain. From such withdraw yourself.

2 Timothy 2:14 (New King James Version)

14 Remind them of these things, charging them before the Lord not to strive about words to no profit, to the ruin of the hearers.

In light of the attitudes and comments being put forth I respectfully suggest that perhaps this topic has run its course and any further posts to it are more often than not based on pride and ego in an attempt to “win” via verbal sparring etc or is simply kicking an already very dead horse.

 

[GloriusMaximus]

As a teacher, I have on very rare occasion run across a child that I was not sure wasn’t just naughty, or bad, or troubled, but evil. These are children who take delight in physically emotionally hurting those around them and put together very sophisticated plans to do so and have no remorse whatsoever for the actions when caught. I’ve thought about what must happen to those children should they meet with an early demise.

Then pu on your thinking cap, a lot of children are like that, and many can change over time. Children act and think based on what’s happening around them and influences they’ve picked up, a child brought up in a violent environment will reflect that in their life later, and vice versa.

Logical thinking is a-calling.

 

[Agripa]

I know some saints and Popes have testified to children going to Hell, younger children than we might think.

Pope St. Gregory the Great testifies to a five year old who went to Hell because the father spoiled the child, and spared the rod, and this as revealed by God.

However, I tend not to tell those stories as they are too fearsome and chilling. They speak to the grave responsibilities parents have, and how indulging selfishness in children from a young age is a great evil.

We are born before baptism, as the scriptures themselves state plainly ‘children of wrath’ that is, not in union with God. Heaven is not a given, it is not the starting destination, it is a great gratis.

Not a single person who died before Christ went to Heaven until He came. Zero. The majority of human history. Even the great patriarchs, Moses, Abraham, they had to wait for Christ to open the gates. Adam had to wait. A very long time.

The place where they waited is sometimes called ‘the Paradise of the Fathers’ or the ‘Limbo of the Fathers’. It is basically the next life without the beatific vision, and any lack of that is considered ‘the edge of Hell’, because of that separation from God. It can be of perfect natural happiness (as long as one has no personal sins to be punished for).

In midevil times, when much of your concept of Heaven and Hell was formulated, most people lived a “nasty, short, & brutish” life and were highly uneducated. Most lived under tyrants or rulers who led with brute force and utter control of their subjects. Life was a huge, oppressive existence. The King or Emporer was a man to be feared greatly. People were ever fearful of running afoul of any law or edict, for punishment was swift, fierce and often brutal (think brandings, lashings, maiming and beheadings).

The ruler was just seen often as the hand of God, and God was often the only authority to which a king was subject. Sometimes rulers would wipe out whole towns or villages, not even sparing women or children. Truly that was “hell”.

But if a despot showed you a kind attention or invited you into his court, it would be like “heaven” to a mere peasant or subject.

Naturally, God too was seen as a fierce, jealous, unflinching Ruler of the Universe. If His Laws, as set out by His Church, were not followed to a T, then surely His Wrath would spare no one as well. In fact, the Heaven and Hell concept fit nicely with the harsh realities of midevil life and greatly assisted Roman and Christian Rulers in their efforts to subjugate populations.

Now I for one think the harsh midevil existance leads naturally to the view of God as Catholics often still do, and yet we no longer live in such times, for the most part. Many certainly do not think a creative God of all life would punish some spirit of man for simply not believing in Him in a certain way. I really think that whatever God is, God is so far beyond any limited, humanized attribute we can assign to God.

I note all the great religions demand obedience and there are grave spiritual consequences if one does not follow a specified spiritual path. But yet, no one can say this is true at all. Even Pope St. Gregory really did not know if a 5 y.o. child really went to Hell, but I am sure like most, he was so displeased with a spoiled child, he told that fable to ignorant parents and waywward children to keep them in line!!

 

[Bill_Pick]

I never received a response when I asked another poster to tell me why he chose that exact age. Can you give me one?
Just blurting out numbers is not kosher…

Secondly - even your own reasoning here must then mean that kids at least CAN go to hell. If they become responsible for their own actions at age 8-9 (and again: At what exact time during that period does it happen?), then you must also say that that possibility exists.

Otherwise, you’re just contradicting yourself (dare I say…“again”? )

Did you read the post,the age was left to my Lord,I do not PICK the age Our Lord does

 

[PJM]

=Shin-I know some saints and Popes have testified to children going to Hell, younger children than we might think.

Pope St. Gregory the Great testifies to a five year old who went to Hell because the father spoiled the child, and spared the rod, and this as revealed by God.

However, I tend not to tell those stories as they are too fearsome and chilling. They speak to the grave responsibilities parents have, and how indulging selfishness in children from a young age is a great evil.

Today people treat mortal sins very lightly. It does not make them less mortal than they were yesterday.

Anyone who looks long and hard at his own conscience knows that we do many things for selfish reasons, not for the sake of God. These things are not good… because we do them for our own sakes, even when exteriorly they appear good. God is good.

**** My dear friend and Brother in Christ Jesus our Redeemer.

I respectfully must disagree with you’re analysis ***

**Luke.20: 36 **“For they cannot die any more, because they are equal to angels and are sons of God, being sons of the resurrection.”

Further biblical evidence can be found in Acts 13:26, Rom. 8:14, 2 Cor. 6:18, Gal. 3:26, Gal. 4:6 and Eph. 1:5

Additionally what you report seems at least on the surface to actually deny the Divinity of God, who can be described “as all good things perfected.” By necessity among these “good things” have to be, God’s Justice and Fairness.

It is true humanity is incapable of understanding the “Mind and Will” of God. However through the Incarnation, we have been able to catch a glimpse of God’s incomprehensible Love for His Created Humanity. So loved are we, that that we share by Divine Will in the Nature of our God. This is through the gifts of mind, intellect, freewill and soul; all SPIRITUAL THINGS, similar to God.

Logic seems to affirm that God cannot give such Wondrous Gifts, and then not permit there use. Such would give justification to the FALSE notion of “predestination.” By allowing a five year old child to be sent to hell 1. Before and without the use of freewill 2. And for the sins of the parents, is clearly not in line with even our imperfect understanding of Divine Justice and Fairness.

I suspect His Holiness as making a lesson for the importance of parental responsibility, and rightly so. But to assert that God would at will override His Perfect Decision to gift us with a “freewill” precisely so that we could freely choose to Love Him in return for His Love, Sacrifices and Gifts, seems virtually an impossibility.

Love and prayers,
Pat*

 

[Shin]

You’re misunderstanding. Pope St. Gregory the Great simply holds that the age of reason can be as young as five – it varies depending on the child. He in fact says as much that the child had reached it.

The child died in the middle of repeating a blasphemy against Christ, as had become the child’s bad habit.

I suspect many children appear less reasonable than they are actually, because their parents treat them more immaturely than they might.

As for the view that those times of high spirituality where dark ages, the life expectancy in the U.S. in the early 1900s was only 45 years of age. Some people lived to be one hundred then, and way back when, and earlier… but that was the average.

Life was not ‘nasty, brutal and short’ back then, this is a prejudiced notion of the seculars who hated the civilization of those times. It was often colorful and cultured and some of the greatest art and writings civilization has ever produced occured in those times. Anyone looking, for example, and the art that today is produced and comparing it should admit: These are more barbarous times, spiritually, artistically, in manners and much else.

 

[Zundrah]

It appears to me that the “discussions” in the topic have become more about arguing for its own sake. Scripture warns us to avoid this. For your consideration:

1 Timothy 6:3-5 (New King James Version)

3 If anyone teaches otherwise and does not consent to wholesome words, even the words of our Lord Jesus Christ, and to the doctrine which accords with godliness, 4 he is proud, knowing nothing, but is obsessed with disputes and arguments over words, from which come envy, strife, reviling, evil suspicions, 5 useless wrangling of men of corrupt minds and destitute of the truth, who suppose that godliness is a means of gain. From such withdraw yourself.

2 Timothy 2:14 (New King James Version)

14 Remind them of these things, charging them before the Lord not to strive about words to no profit, to the ruin of the hearers.

In light of the attitudes and comments being put forth I respectfully suggest that perhaps this topic has run its course and any further posts to it are more often than not based on pride and ego in an attempt to “win” via verbal sparring etc or is simply kicking an already very dead horse.

The horse is very dead indeed, kids DO go to hell, there is no point arguing about such a stupid thing. Neither of us can use the bible to defend our claims, so statistically this is an already dead subject.

 

[Agripa]

As for the view that those times of high spirituality where dark ages, the life expectancy in the U.S. in the early 1900s was only 45 years of age. Some people lived to be one hundred then, and way back when, and earlier… but that was the average.

Life was not ‘nasty, brutal and short’ back then, this is a prejudiced notion of the seculars who hated the civilization of those times. It was often colorful and cultured and some of the greatest art and writings civilization has ever produced occured in those times. Anyone looking, for example, and the art that today is produced and comparing it should admit: These are more barbarous times, spiritually, artistically, in manners and much else.

You run a risk of idealizing the middle ages, my friend!

I will be ever thankful this Turkey Day that per chance I was birthed in the mid 20th century rather than the mid 1100’s. Would you want a decayed tooth in 1153? A case of strep throat? An infected sore? Would you want the “justice” of those unenlightened times? Would you want to kiss your “significant other” with your mouths full of green rotted teeth or watch any number of your children succomb to horrid deaths now so easily limited by modern medicines? I think not, but I do think living in such times would influence greatly how you view God and the afterlife!

And I think it awfully easy for any of us, sitting in our mechanically air conditioned home or office, able to grab any number of edible items from our mechanically cooled refridgerators, to sit in modern armchairs and wax nostalgically on the romance of living in those blasted times!!

 

[Shin]

You run a risk of idealizing the middle ages, my friend!

I will be ever thankful this Turkey Day that per chance I was birthed in the mid 20th century rather than the mid 1100’s. Would you want a decayed tooth in 1153? A case of strep throat? An infected sore? Would you want the “justice” of those unenlightened times? Would you want to kiss your “significant other” with your mouths full of green rotted teeth or watch any number of your children succomb to horrid deaths now so easily limited by modern medicines? I think not, but I do think living in such times would influence greatly how you view God and the afterlife!

And I think it awfully easy for any of us, sitting in our mechanically air conditioned home or office, able to grab any number of edible items from our mechanically cooled refridgerators, to sit in modern armchairs and wax nostalgically on the romance of living in those blasted times!!

I am hardly romanticizing, I am simply noting that your singling out of those times is not in fact, accurate. All times before the industrial revolution suffered from the problems you cite. All of human history. Every bit of it.

Though you are exaggerating still.

And I do not believe that industrialization always leads to improved morality, quite the contrary, it has its own parcel of problems. Christian morality has always placed the soul above the body in importance, and quite rightly as our time on Earth, 100 years or 50, or 25… or shorter. is always short compared to eternity.

What we see now is the reverse of that and pure materialism and physical comfort as a morality of its own.

 

[Xavierlives]

In midevil times, when much of your concept of Heaven and Hell was formulated, most people lived a “nasty, short, & brutish” life and were highly uneducated. Most lived under tyrants or rulers who led with brute force and utter control of their subjects. Life was a huge, oppressive existence. The King or Emporer was a man to be feared greatly. People were ever fearful of running afoul of any law or edict, for punishment was swift, fierce and often brutal (think brandings, lashings, maiming and beheadings).

The ruler was just seen often as the hand of God, and God was often the only authority to which a king was subject. Sometimes rulers would wipe out whole towns or villages, not even sparing women or children. Truly that was “hell”.

But if a despot showed you a kind attention or invited you into his court, it would be like “heaven” to a mere peasant or subject.

Naturally, God too was seen as a fierce, jealous, unflinching Ruler of the Universe. If His Laws, as set out by His Church, were not followed to a T, then surely His Wrath would spare no one as well. In fact, the Heaven and Hell concept fit nicely with the harsh realities of midevil life and greatly assisted Roman and Christian Rulers in their efforts to subjugate populations.

Now I for one think the harsh midevil existance leads naturally to the view of God as Catholics often still do, and yet we no longer live in such times, for the most part. Many certainly do not think a creative God of all life would punish some spirit of man for simply not believing in Him in a certain way. I really think that whatever God is, God is so far beyond any limited, humanized attribute we can assign to God.

I note all the great religions demand obedience and there are grave spiritual consequences if one does not follow a specified spiritual path. But yet, no one can say this is true at all. Even Pope St. Gregory really did not know if a 5 y.o. child really went to Hell, but I am sure like most, he was so displeased with a spoiled child, he told that fable to ignorant parents and waywward children to keep them in line!!

I really enjoyed your story until “God too was seen as a fierce, jealous, unflinching Ruler of the Universe. If His Laws, as set out by His Church, were not followed to a T, then surely His Wrath would spare no one as well.” I think you, if anybody, understands that when we try to record God-like qualities, we are limited to our man-like descriptions. So when we see things like “have no other gods before me because I am a jealous God.” We immediately say, OOOooo that is bad! We are told not to be envious of our neighbors and here is a jealous God. While at times I can’t entirely wrap my mind around God’s characteristics, I think the underlying message is one of love. One that I can only express in terms of parenting. When our first son was born, I was amazed how my heart was filled with love. Now he is nine and my love has grown (and I would never have thought it possible). Sure he does things that gets me really frustrated, I will always love him. Now here is where we try to connected human emotions to God. I don’t think we can. I think we try, but they never work, because things of God are God’s. We are a mere reflection of him so I can can only suppose my love for my children is 1/100th of his love for us.

I think the brutality you see in the Bible is a long line of consequences for bad behavior. The toughest job parents have is teaching cause and effect (or consequences). We naturally want to protect them. They fall, we rush to pick them up. Sometimes they need to fall to learn. Sometimes they need to fail. Sometimes their failures are dramatic. Sometimes their failures are a minor blip, whatever happens, the love is never lost.

The problem is everybody dies (and while we could argue whether overall mankind’s death is a result of God’s judgment, we’ll leave that for another thread), so people are left with, was so-and-so’s death God’s judgment. Even as a somewhat young person, I can say I have come face to face with some truly evil people. People who rape children. I believe their is a special place in hell for them. I also believe there is a special place in heaven for them. The problem is they are not sorry. They don’t want to change their ways, and to use a biblical term, they have stiffnecks.

This leads right back to the topic. Children are often sorry when they do wrongs. They are repentant and they try to change. Moreover, children do not understand that the consequence of sin is that it separates us from God. When they start to make those connections is when we see they are accountable. I think for everychild it is different. We can be legalistic about it because it is not an objective call.

 

[Shin]

I saw a throne in the sky, and on it sat the Lord Jesus Christ as Judge. Before his feet sat the Virgin Mary; and around the throne, there was an army of angels and an infinite multitude of saints. A religious, very learned in theology, stood on a high rung of a ladder which was fixed in the earth and whose summit touched the sky. His gestures were very impatient and restless, as if he were full of guile and malice. He questioned the Judge, saying. . .

[The Sixth Interrogation]

First question. Again there appeared on the rung the same man as before, and he said: “O Judge, I ask you why one infant comes forth alive from its mother’s womb and obtains baptism while another, after receiving a soul, dies within its mother’s viscera?”

Second question. “Item. Why, for the just, do many things have an untoward outcome while, for the unjust, all things are as they wish?”

Third question. “Item. Why do plagues and famines come - and the inconveniences that afflict the body?”

Fourth question. “Item. Why does death come so unexpectedly that it can very rarely be foreseen?”

Fifth question. “Item. Why do you suffer men to go to war with deliberate wrath and envy and in a spirit of vengeance?”

Response to the first question. The Judge replied: "Friend, you question not out of charity but only because I permit it. And that is why I answer you in a way that resembles words. You ask why one infant dies within its mother’s viscera and another comes forth alive. The reason is this. All the strength of a child’s body is taken from the seed of its father and mother; but if it is conceived without due strength because of some infirmity of the father or the mother, it quickly dies.

As a result of the parents’ neglect or lack of care - and also as a result of my divine justice - many things happen so that what was joined together quickly separates. Nevertheless, although the soul had no longer time to vivify the body, it will not therefore meet with a harsh punishment but rather with a mercy known to me. When the sun streams into a house, its rays alone are seen. Only those who gaze at the sky see the sun as it is in its beauty. So it is with the souls of such children. Because they lack baptism, they do not see my face. Nevertheless, they do draw nearer to mercy than to punishment - although not in the same way as my elect."

The Revelations of St. Bridget

This of course is testifying to the necessity of baptism, and that men conceived in original sin and unable to enter Heaven without it. Nevertheless. . an afterlife of natural happiness, like that the Patriarchs lived, is a great mercy.

Theologically all deprivation of the beatific vision is often spoken of as ‘Hell’, but truly it is not in the sense we normally picture it, anymore than the Patriarchs were tormented. It is a punishment, in that there is a lack of the beatific vision, but there are no other pains – and so a ‘punishment’ that is only the one we are conceived in from the start due to our parentage.

Therefore the Ecumenical Council of Florence states it in theological language:

“Also, the souls of those who have incurred no stain of sin whatsoever after baptism, as well as souls who after incurring the stain of sin have been cleansed whether in their bodies or outside their bodies, as was stated above, are straightaway received into heaven and clearly behold the triune God as he is, yet one person more perfectly than another according to the difference of their merits. But the souls of those who depart this life in actual mortal sin, or in original sin alone, go down straightaway to hell to be punished, but with unequal pains.”

 

[Agripa]

“Also, the souls of those who have incurred no stain of sin whatsoever after baptism, as well as souls who after incurring the stain of sin have been cleansed whether in their bodies or outside their bodies, as was stated above, are straightaway received into heaven and clearly behold the triune God as he is, yet one person more perfectly than another according to the difference of their merits. But the souls of those who depart this life in actual mortal sin, or in original sin alone, go down straightaway to hell to be punished, but with unequal pains.”

Did the men who made up the Ecumenical Council of Florence further define the “unequal pains” down there in Hell? And why is hell always “down”, anyway? Is there up or down in an afterlife situation?

I see now there is a slight hedge in the adament belief that even children and infants go to Hell. Now there seems to be some distinctions made of Hell and its various pains!

 

[Shin]

Did the men who made up the Ecumenical Council of Florence further define the “unequal pains” down there in Hell? And why is hell always “down”, anyway? Is there up or down in an afterlife situation?

I see now there is a slight hedge in the adament belief that even children and infants go to Hell. Now there seems to be some distinctions made of Hell and its various pains!

Given both the fact that souls have locations, and the resurrection of the dead where bodies are returned to us, yes, there are ups or downs in afterlife situations.

There have always been distinctions about the afterlife, both Heaven, Hell, and purgatory. Everyone has a different afterlife within each of these places.

 

[PJM]

=Shin;5981151]I saw a throne in the sky, and on it sat the Lord Jesus Christ as Judge. Before his feet sat the Virgin Mary; and around the throne, there was an army of angels and an infinite multitude of saints. A religious, very learned in theology, stood on a high rung of a ladder which was fixed in the earth and whose summit touched the sky. His gestures were very impatient and restless, as if he were full of guile and malice. He questioned the Judge, saying. . .

[The Sixth Interrogation]

First question. Again there appeared on the rung the same man as before, and he said: “O Judge, I ask you why one infant comes forth alive from its mother’s womb and obtains baptism while another, after receiving a soul, dies within its mother’s viscera?”

Second question. “Item. Why, for the just, do many things have an untoward outcome while, for the unjust, all things are as they wish?”

Third question. “Item. Why do plagues and famines come - and the inconveniences that afflict the body?”

Fourth question. “Item. Why does death come so unexpectedly that it can very rarely be foreseen?”

Fifth question. “Item. Why do you suffer men to go to war with deliberate wrath and envy and in a spirit of vengeance?”

Response to the first question. The Judge replied: "Friend, you question not out of charity but only because I permit it. And that is why I answer you in a way that resembles words. You ask why one infant dies within its mother’s viscera and another comes forth alive. The reason is this. All the strength of a child’s body is taken from the seed of its father and mother; but if it is conceived without due strength because of some infirmity of the father or the mother, it quickly dies.

As a result of the parents’ neglect or lack of care - and also as a result of my divine justice - many things happen so that what was joined together quickly separates. Nevertheless, although the soul had no longer time to vivify the body, it will not therefore meet with a harsh punishment but rather with a mercy known to me. When the sun streams into a house, its rays alone are seen. Only those who gaze at the sky see the sun as it is in its beauty. So it is with the souls of such children. Because they lack baptism, they do not see my face. Nevertheless, they do draw nearer to mercy than to punishment - although not in the same way as my elect."

The Revelations of St. Bridget

This of course is testifying to the necessity of baptism, and that men conceived in original sin and unable to enter Heaven without it. Nevertheless. . an afterlife of natural happiness, like that the Patriarchs lived, is a great mercy.

Theologically all deprivation of the beatific vision is often spoken of as ‘Hell’, but truly it is not in the sense we normally picture it, anymore than the Patriarchs were tormented. It is a punishment, in that there is a lack of the beatific vision, but there are no other pains – and so a ‘punishment’ that is only the one we are conceived in from the start due to our parentage.

Therefore the Ecumenical Council of Florence states it in theological language:

“Also, the souls of those who have incurred no stain of sin whatsoever after baptism, as well as souls who after incurring the stain of sin have been cleansed whether in their bodies or outside their bodies, as was stated above, are straightaway received into heaven and clearly behold the triune God as he is, yet one person more perfectly than another according to the difference of their merits. But the souls of those who depart this life in actual mortal sin, or in original sin alone, go down straightaway to hell to be punished, but with unequal pains.”

***Thank you.

This is both edifying and interesting, however I struggle to see it’s relevance to the topic of the OP. Certainly ones “freewill” must come into play to deserve damnation?

Love and prayers,

Pat***

 

[Agripa]

This leads right back to the topic. Children are often sorry when they do wrongs. They are repentant and they try to change. Moreover, children do not understand that the consequence of sin is that it separates us from God. When they start to make those connections is when we see they are accountable. I think for everychild it is different. We can be legalistic about it because it is not an objective call.

Thankfully, my little one often expresses sorrow to me when I get after her (don’t tell anyone, but that occasionaly means a “spanking”!) So I can say on at least a rudimentary level and far as the rules I have laid out for my child, she knows generally what is right and wrong and she knows that she may suffer a consequence if rules for proper living are not followed. But how we humans must enforce behavior in an imperfect world (generally reward or punishment) does not, to me, mean that is how it is with God, although we “want” our way of enforcing rules to be reflected similarly in a spiritual manner as well. We want God to enforce rules just as we would: We want God to punish those we think should be punished and reward those we think God should reward. Most everybody thinks ther mothers should be in heaven and most everybody thinks hitler should be in hell. The question I have is whether or not that is how it really works at all!

And I do agree that “when we try to record God-like qualities, we are limited to our man-like descriptions”, as you put it. Though from an agnostic or even a limited, deist’s point of view, I might say we cannot even fathom God like qualities because we are so limited in this man’s world!

 

[Shin]

***Thank you.

This is both edifying and interesting, however I struggle to see it’s relevance to the topic of the OP. Certainly ones “freewill” must come into play to deserve damnation?

Love and prayers,

Pat***

We do not ‘deserve’ Heaven. Heaven is a gift. So, to not go to Heaven is not a matter of direct punishment for our personal misdeeds, it is a privilege that God may or may not give a soul, according to His mysterious will.

We do not start off, we are not conceived on the path to Heaven. We are conceived in a state separated from God, and if we die in that state, that is where we remain.

We do not start off, conceived as saved and having gained salvation.

Free will does not have to come into play. It does not for a baby when the baby is baptized, nor when a baby is created (it has no choice), nor when a baby is not baptized.

People who think that everyone is born innocent and destined for Heaven do not understand original sin and why we needed a Saviour (that the whole earth waited and groaned for).

We are what we are… that determines where we go. We can change or not… depending on many reasons. We go to the place what we are is fitting for.

And in the end, all is well, God has prepared for all these things.

 

[Shin]

If this all sounds a little foreign, then I suggest some of the catechisms available in the links below, or listening to some of the audio sermons (they are arranged by topic and this topic is dealt with to some extent).