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LutheranDK
Guest
But you DID say 8 or 9, and what I’m asking, is for you to give me your reasons for mentioning those ages.
In fact the whole “get a free pass until a certain age”-thing seems…dubious at best.
- Status
In fact the whole “get a free pass until a certain age”-thing seems…dubious at best.
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Bill_Pick
Guest
Not to be rude But the date is not the thing I may have said 7or8, 6 or 5 if you read the post I said My Lord PICK the date,thats He Pick and his job
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LutheranDK
Guest
Alright then.
Now, for the other part of my question: What makes you come up with this “age of reason” = “free pass until age (insert here)”-thing in the first place?
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Zundrah
Guest
Alright then.
Now, for the other part of my question: What makes you come up with this “age of reason” = “free pass until age (insert here)”-thing in the first place?
That’s much better, now all I have to do is pretend to accidently die in 28 years time so that I wont go to hell!
BRILLIANT, WHY DIDN’T I THINK OF THIS BEFORE?
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Xavierlives
Guest
So what happens to these born innocents?
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Bill_Pick
Guest
It was just two or 3 age READ THE post it may have been 11 or 12Alright then.
Now, for the other part of my question: What makes you come up with this “age of reason” = “free pass until age (insert here)”-thing in the first place?
see if this will help you " I may have said 7or8, 6 or 5 if you read the post I said My Lord PICK the date,thats He Pick and his job"
I hope you understand this now
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Shin
Guest
The Fifth Article of the Apostle’s Creed:
He descended into hell. On the third day he rose again.
The Catechism of Pope St. Pius X
‘Limbo’ is simply a term for this place – it also sometimes referred to as ‘the bosom of Abraham’ or ‘the paradise of the fathers’.]
1 Q. When should infants be brought to the Church to be baptised?
A. Infants should be brought to the Church to be baptised as soon as possible.
12 Q. Why such anxiety to have infants receive Baptism?
A. There should be the greatest anxiety to have infants baptised because, on account of their tender age, they are exposed to many dangers of death, and cannot be saved without Baptism.
1 Q. Do parents sin, then, who, through negligence, allow their children to die without Baptism, or who defer it?
A. Yes, fathers and mothers who, through negligence, allow their children to die without Baptism sin grievously, because they deprive their children of eternal life; and they also sin grievously by putting off Baptism for a long time, because they expose them to danger of dying without having received it.
Baltimore Catechism
Q. 402. Did Christ’s soul descend into the hell of the damned?
A. The hell into which Christ’s soul descended was not the hell of the damned, but a place or state of rest called Limbo, where the souls of the just were waiting for Him.
Q. 403. Why did Christ descend into Limbo?
A. Christ descended into Limbo to preach to the souls who were in prison – that is, to announce to them the joyful tidings of their redemption.
Q. 632. Where will persons go who – such as infants – have not committed actual sin and who, through no fault of theirs, die without baptism?
A. Persons, such as infants, who have not committed actual sin and who, through no fault of theirs, die without baptism, cannot enter heaven; but it is the common belief they will go to some place similar to Limbo, where they will be free from suffering, though deprived of the happiness of heaven.
The term limbo is just a word used to refer to a place outside of heaven, and so without the beatific vision, but without the sufferings of Hell that are caused by personal sins, because these do not exist and so there is no punishment given them.
Original sin alone deprives one of Heaven, and this is what has happened to those who die in it but without having grown old enough to sin particularly, they cannot enter Heaven but do not deserve the particular punishments of Hell.
Without the grace provided by baptism, the beatific vision (i.e. Heaven) is not achievable so this is the necessary place for people who without it have died but deserve no particular punishment. They do not gain the supernatural rewards of Heaven but gain at least the natural goods of God.
“Jesus answered: Amen, amen I say to thee, unless a man be born again of water and the Holy Ghost, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.”
John 3:5
He descended into hell. On the third day he rose again.
The Catechism of Pope St. Pius X
- Q. What are we taught in the Fifth Article: He descended into hell; the third day He rose again from the dead?
‘Limbo’ is simply a term for this place – it also sometimes referred to as ‘the bosom of Abraham’ or ‘the paradise of the fathers’.]
1 Q. When should infants be brought to the Church to be baptised?
A. Infants should be brought to the Church to be baptised as soon as possible.
12 Q. Why such anxiety to have infants receive Baptism?
A. There should be the greatest anxiety to have infants baptised because, on account of their tender age, they are exposed to many dangers of death, and cannot be saved without Baptism.
1 Q. Do parents sin, then, who, through negligence, allow their children to die without Baptism, or who defer it?
A. Yes, fathers and mothers who, through negligence, allow their children to die without Baptism sin grievously, because they deprive their children of eternal life; and they also sin grievously by putting off Baptism for a long time, because they expose them to danger of dying without having received it.
Baltimore Catechism
Q. 402. Did Christ’s soul descend into the hell of the damned?
A. The hell into which Christ’s soul descended was not the hell of the damned, but a place or state of rest called Limbo, where the souls of the just were waiting for Him.
Q. 403. Why did Christ descend into Limbo?
A. Christ descended into Limbo to preach to the souls who were in prison – that is, to announce to them the joyful tidings of their redemption.
Q. 632. Where will persons go who – such as infants – have not committed actual sin and who, through no fault of theirs, die without baptism?
A. Persons, such as infants, who have not committed actual sin and who, through no fault of theirs, die without baptism, cannot enter heaven; but it is the common belief they will go to some place similar to Limbo, where they will be free from suffering, though deprived of the happiness of heaven.
The term limbo is just a word used to refer to a place outside of heaven, and so without the beatific vision, but without the sufferings of Hell that are caused by personal sins, because these do not exist and so there is no punishment given them.
Original sin alone deprives one of Heaven, and this is what has happened to those who die in it but without having grown old enough to sin particularly, they cannot enter Heaven but do not deserve the particular punishments of Hell.
Without the grace provided by baptism, the beatific vision (i.e. Heaven) is not achievable so this is the necessary place for people who without it have died but deserve no particular punishment. They do not gain the supernatural rewards of Heaven but gain at least the natural goods of God.
“Jesus answered: Amen, amen I say to thee, unless a man be born again of water and the Holy Ghost, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.”
John 3:5
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PJM
Guest
***Here is the Offical position of the RCC…
***CCC 1261 “As regards children who have died without Baptism, the Church can only entrust them to the mercy of God, as she does in her funeral rites for them. Indeed, the great mercy of God who desires that all men should be saved, and Jesus’ tenderness toward children which caused him to say: “Let the children come to me, do not hinder them,” allow us to hope that there is a way of salvation for children who have died without Baptism. All the more urgent is the Church’s call not to prevent little children coming to Christ through the gift of holy Baptism.”
*We do know that they in no way suffer. We do not know with certainity, that they get to meet God “face to face?” e answer lies in the Divine Will that has demonistrated time and again the extremes He will go too to be in relationship with His Created humanity.
Let us pray!*
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Xavierlives
Guest
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Shin
Guest
Only after Christ’s crucifixion and death was the new law in place for baptism. The veil of the temple was rent. He founded and instructed the Church upon this, as seen in Acts. The gates of Heaven were not opened until He himself went to open them, preaching to the spirits in prison, etc.
Before this, the old law still applied. Circumcision, etc.
The Acts of the Apostles, Chapter 1:
In the first book, Theophilus, I dealt with all that Jesus did and taught until the day he was taken up, after giving instructions through the holy Spirit to the apostles whom he had chosen. He presented himself alive to them by many proofs after he had suffered, appearing to them during forty days and speaking about the kingdom of God. While meeting with them, he enjoined them not to depart from Jerusalem, but to wait for “the promise of the Father about which you have heard me speak; for John baptized with water, but in a few days you will be baptized with the holy Spirit.”
Before this, the old law still applied. Circumcision, etc.
The Acts of the Apostles, Chapter 1:
In the first book, Theophilus, I dealt with all that Jesus did and taught until the day he was taken up, after giving instructions through the holy Spirit to the apostles whom he had chosen. He presented himself alive to them by many proofs after he had suffered, appearing to them during forty days and speaking about the kingdom of God. While meeting with them, he enjoined them not to depart from Jerusalem, but to wait for “the promise of the Father about which you have heard me speak; for John baptized with water, but in a few days you will be baptized with the holy Spirit.”
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tbcrawford
Guest
The Church officially teaches that there is salvation through “baptism by desire”. Accordingly, people preparing for baptism may be saved even though they did not receive the sacrament of baptism before death. If such a person should die before being baptized, they are not excluded from Heaven on a technicality. Instead, they are considered “baptized by desire”.
Baptism of desire (Latin Baptismus Flaminis) is a teaching of the Roman Catholic Church explaining that those who desire baptism, but are not baptized with water through the Christian ritual, because of death, nevertheless bring about the fruits of Baptism, if their grace of conversion included an internal act of perfect love and contrition which automatically cleanses the soul of all sin. Hence, the Catechism of the Catholic Church observes, “For catechumens who die before their Baptism, their explicit desire to receive it, together with repentance for their sins, and charity, assures them the salvation that they were not able to receive through the sacrament” (CCC 1259).
St. Augustine also distinguishes between the sacrament of Baptism and the turning of the heart to God. He teaches that if either of these conditions cannot be secured, the other will be sufficient. A baptized Child is saved, without turning its heart to God, should it die before coming to the age of reason, and a man who turns his heart to God is saved without water baptism, provided he in no way despise the sacrament. [17]
The Roman Catholic Church teaches that “baptism is necessary for salvation.” (Catechism of the Catholic Church, ss. 1257) [1]. It moreover teaches that baptism confers the forgiveness of sins by virtue of the enactment of the sacrament itself: “(b)y Baptism all sins are forgiven, original sin and all personal sins, as well as all punishment for sin.” (ss. 1263). For Catholics, baptism is a unique, unrepeatable act; no one who has been baptized validly can receive the full pardon conferred by the sacrament a second time. (ss. 1272) Given these doctrines, it is a matter of serious concern for the Catholic Church if a believing Christian does not receive a valid baptism.
The doctrine of baptism of desire seeks to address some of the implications of these teachings. It holds that those who come to faith in the Catholic Church as adults and become catechumens before receiving baptism nevertheless are admitted to salvation even though the Church teaches that baptism is necessary for salvation. Non-Christians who seek God with a sincere heart and, moved by grace, try to do His will as they know it through the dictates of conscience can also be saved without water baptism; they are said to desire it implicitly. (cf. Catechism, 1260)
Martyrdom
Similarly, those who die as martyrs in a persecution of Christians are also judged by Roman Catholicism to have acquired the benefits of baptism without actually undergoing the ritual; this is the “baptism of blood” (baptismum sanguinis) (ss. 1258). Because the Catholic Church practises infant baptism, these issues seldom arise except for adult converts to Catholicism who were not baptised as children. The Catholic Church officially professes uncertainty about the fate in the afterlife of infants who die before baptism, observing that “the Church can only entrust them to the mercy of God” (ss. 1261). Today, it is most commonly accepted that children who die in infancy or who are aborted are admitted into heaven.
While for infants, baptism is the sole means of salvation, (as they cannot make an act of faith, which requires the use of reason), yet it may be rightly affirmed ask if “regardless of the absolute necessity of baptism for salvation, are there not other means [than that of water] of providing for it? The Fathers [of the Church] admit to baptism of blood or martyrdom, and in a certain measure the baptism of desire, as a means of replacing the baptism of water."[3]
Fr. Marin-Sola states in his theological treaties on the sacraments: “Certain heretics have affirmed that no adult can be saved without receiving baptism itself before he dies, however much he would burn with desire for it, and that it would do him no good unless he were washed with water. Baius (in a proposition condemned by Pope V) also taught that charity was not always joined to the remission of sins.” He continues on to state “Against the second part (baptism of blood) there are hardly any adversaries, save for a few theologians who disagree over the manner in which martyrdom achieves its effect.”
Baptism of desire (Latin Baptismus Flaminis) is a teaching of the Roman Catholic Church explaining that those who desire baptism, but are not baptized with water through the Christian ritual, because of death, nevertheless bring about the fruits of Baptism, if their grace of conversion included an internal act of perfect love and contrition which automatically cleanses the soul of all sin. Hence, the Catechism of the Catholic Church observes, “For catechumens who die before their Baptism, their explicit desire to receive it, together with repentance for their sins, and charity, assures them the salvation that they were not able to receive through the sacrament” (CCC 1259).
St. Augustine also distinguishes between the sacrament of Baptism and the turning of the heart to God. He teaches that if either of these conditions cannot be secured, the other will be sufficient. A baptized Child is saved, without turning its heart to God, should it die before coming to the age of reason, and a man who turns his heart to God is saved without water baptism, provided he in no way despise the sacrament. [17]
The Roman Catholic Church teaches that “baptism is necessary for salvation.” (Catechism of the Catholic Church, ss. 1257) [1]. It moreover teaches that baptism confers the forgiveness of sins by virtue of the enactment of the sacrament itself: “(b)y Baptism all sins are forgiven, original sin and all personal sins, as well as all punishment for sin.” (ss. 1263). For Catholics, baptism is a unique, unrepeatable act; no one who has been baptized validly can receive the full pardon conferred by the sacrament a second time. (ss. 1272) Given these doctrines, it is a matter of serious concern for the Catholic Church if a believing Christian does not receive a valid baptism.
The doctrine of baptism of desire seeks to address some of the implications of these teachings. It holds that those who come to faith in the Catholic Church as adults and become catechumens before receiving baptism nevertheless are admitted to salvation even though the Church teaches that baptism is necessary for salvation. Non-Christians who seek God with a sincere heart and, moved by grace, try to do His will as they know it through the dictates of conscience can also be saved without water baptism; they are said to desire it implicitly. (cf. Catechism, 1260)
Martyrdom
Similarly, those who die as martyrs in a persecution of Christians are also judged by Roman Catholicism to have acquired the benefits of baptism without actually undergoing the ritual; this is the “baptism of blood” (baptismum sanguinis) (ss. 1258). Because the Catholic Church practises infant baptism, these issues seldom arise except for adult converts to Catholicism who were not baptised as children. The Catholic Church officially professes uncertainty about the fate in the afterlife of infants who die before baptism, observing that “the Church can only entrust them to the mercy of God” (ss. 1261). Today, it is most commonly accepted that children who die in infancy or who are aborted are admitted into heaven.
While for infants, baptism is the sole means of salvation, (as they cannot make an act of faith, which requires the use of reason), yet it may be rightly affirmed ask if “regardless of the absolute necessity of baptism for salvation, are there not other means [than that of water] of providing for it? The Fathers [of the Church] admit to baptism of blood or martyrdom, and in a certain measure the baptism of desire, as a means of replacing the baptism of water."[3]
Fr. Marin-Sola states in his theological treaties on the sacraments: “Certain heretics have affirmed that no adult can be saved without receiving baptism itself before he dies, however much he would burn with desire for it, and that it would do him no good unless he were washed with water. Baius (in a proposition condemned by Pope V) also taught that charity was not always joined to the remission of sins.” He continues on to state “Against the second part (baptism of blood) there are hardly any adversaries, save for a few theologians who disagree over the manner in which martyrdom achieves its effect.”
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tbcrawford
Guest
This doctrine has been taught by doctors of the Church throughout her history from the earliest days down to recent times: “the Doctrine that Baptism of Water may be replaced by the Baptism of desire or by Baptism of Blood is not, as is some times supposed, a recent development of doctrine, it is taught for instance by St. Gregory Nazianzen in a sermon preached in 381,[5] where mention is made of the Baptism of water, of Martyrdom and of tears. It must be observed that we do not hold that there are three kinds of Baptism, for in the creed read in the Mass, we confess one Baptism for the remission of sins, the actual reception of which, however, may be replaced in either of the two ways mentioned.”
Baptism of desire is not the sacrament of baptism and yet applying the term “baptism” to the baptism of blood and baptism of desire has been a practice of the Church for centuries. Even if it is not a baptism in the strict sense, it nevertheless is a baptism in the analogical sense. Just as receiving the Eucharist by making a spiritual “Communion” is not a true Communion, but given the name “Spiritual Communion” in the analogical sense. In both cases, no one is denying the primary term. On the same point, St. Albert the Great says that the baptism of blood and the baptism of desire can only be called baptism when water baptism is lacking.[7]
In this sense, “Baptisms of desire” and “Baptism of blood” are not sacraments, but simply fulfill the requirements when the sacrament cannot be received due to extraordinary circumstances. Thus, one speaks metaphorically of “different Baptisms” yet they all obtain the same sanctifying grace. In fact, Our Lord Himself spoke of different Baptisms during His public ministry. There was “the Baptism wherewith I am to be baptized” (Lk. 12:50), referring to a Baptism of blood, which was His crucifixion. Describing the descent of the Holy Ghost on Pentecost, he says “For John indeed baptized with water, but you shall be baptized with the Holy Ghost, not many days hence” (Act. 1:5).
Concerning the necessity of the sacraments for salvation Peter Lombard (1160 AD) points out that, “God did not bind his power by the Sacraments.”[8] In other words, God is not bound by the sacraments to draw men to heaven (Cf. Job 33:15-18). St. Thomas Aquinas affirms the same as he points out “It belongs to the excellence of Christ power, that He (Christ) could bestow the sacramental effect without conferring the exterior sacrament.”[9]
In fact if we turn to the authority of the Church Fathers we also find that their unanimity on the point gives us a sure certitude for this teaching since “the unanimity of the Fathers (Consensus Patrum), in matters of faith and morals, begets complete certainty and commands assent, because they, as a body, bear witness to the teaching and belief of the infallible Church, representing the Church herself. So the authority of the Fathers is binding only when they all agree upon a question of faith and morals. The consensus, however, need not be absolute; a moral agreement suffices, as, for instance, when some of the greatest Fathers testify to a doctrine of the Church, and the rest, though quite aware of it, do not positively oppose it.” [10]
Baptism of desire is not the sacrament of baptism and yet applying the term “baptism” to the baptism of blood and baptism of desire has been a practice of the Church for centuries. Even if it is not a baptism in the strict sense, it nevertheless is a baptism in the analogical sense. Just as receiving the Eucharist by making a spiritual “Communion” is not a true Communion, but given the name “Spiritual Communion” in the analogical sense. In both cases, no one is denying the primary term. On the same point, St. Albert the Great says that the baptism of blood and the baptism of desire can only be called baptism when water baptism is lacking.[7]
In this sense, “Baptisms of desire” and “Baptism of blood” are not sacraments, but simply fulfill the requirements when the sacrament cannot be received due to extraordinary circumstances. Thus, one speaks metaphorically of “different Baptisms” yet they all obtain the same sanctifying grace. In fact, Our Lord Himself spoke of different Baptisms during His public ministry. There was “the Baptism wherewith I am to be baptized” (Lk. 12:50), referring to a Baptism of blood, which was His crucifixion. Describing the descent of the Holy Ghost on Pentecost, he says “For John indeed baptized with water, but you shall be baptized with the Holy Ghost, not many days hence” (Act. 1:5).
Concerning the necessity of the sacraments for salvation Peter Lombard (1160 AD) points out that, “God did not bind his power by the Sacraments.”[8] In other words, God is not bound by the sacraments to draw men to heaven (Cf. Job 33:15-18). St. Thomas Aquinas affirms the same as he points out “It belongs to the excellence of Christ power, that He (Christ) could bestow the sacramental effect without conferring the exterior sacrament.”[9]
In fact if we turn to the authority of the Church Fathers we also find that their unanimity on the point gives us a sure certitude for this teaching since “the unanimity of the Fathers (Consensus Patrum), in matters of faith and morals, begets complete certainty and commands assent, because they, as a body, bear witness to the teaching and belief of the infallible Church, representing the Church herself. So the authority of the Fathers is binding only when they all agree upon a question of faith and morals. The consensus, however, need not be absolute; a moral agreement suffices, as, for instance, when some of the greatest Fathers testify to a doctrine of the Church, and the rest, though quite aware of it, do not positively oppose it.” [10]
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tbcrawford
Guest
St. Thomas Aquinas states that" a man may, without Baptism of Water, receive the sacramental effect from Christ’s Passion, in so far as he is conformed to Christ by suffering for Him. Hence, it is written (Apoc. 7:14): “These are they who are come out of great tribulation, and have washed their robes and have made them white in the blood of the Lamb.” In like manner a man receives the effect of Baptism by the power of the Holy Ghost, not only without Baptism of Water, but also without Baptism of Blood: forasmuch as his heart is moved by the Holy Ghost to believe in and love God and to repent of his sins: wherefore this is also called Baptism of Repentance. Of this, it is written (Is. 4:4): “If the Lord shall wash away the filth of the daughters of Zion, and shall wash away the blood of Jerusalem out of the midst thereof, by the spirit of judgment, and by the spirit of burning.” Thus, therefore, each of these other Baptisms is called Baptism, forasmuch as it takes the place of Baptism. Wherefore Augustine says (De Unico Baptismo Parvulorum iv): “The Blessed Cyprian argues with considerable reason from the thief to whom, though not baptized, it was said: ‘Today shall you be with Me in Paradise’ that suffering can take the place of Baptism. Having weighed this in my mind again and again, I perceive that not only can suffering for the name of Christ supply for what was lacking in Baptism, but even faith and conversion of heart, if perchance on account of the stress of the times the celebration of the mystery of Baptism is not practicable.” [11] He also states "Secondly, the sacrament of Baptism may be wanting to anyone in reality but not in desire: for instance, when a man wishes to be baptized, but by some ill-chance he is forestalled by death before receiving Baptism. Moreover, such a man can obtain salvation without being actually baptized, on account of his desire for Baptism, which desire is the outcome of “faith that works by charity,” whereby God, Whose power is not tied to visible sacraments, sanctifies man inwardly. Hence Ambrose says of Valentinian, who died while yet a catechumen: “I lost him whom I was to regenerate: but he did not lose the grace he prayed for.” [12]
St. Thomas States, “some have received the invisible sanctification without visible sacraments, and to their profit; but though it is possible to have the visible sanctification, consisting in a visible sacrament, without the invisible sanctification, it will be to no profit.” Since, therefore, the sacrament of Baptism pertains to the visible sanctification; it seems that a man can obtain salvation without the sacrament of Baptism, by means of the invisible sanctification”.[14]
Further the Catechism of Pope St. Pius X states that “The absence of Baptism can be supplied by martyrdom, which is called Baptism of Blood, or by an act of perfect love of God, or of contrition, along with the desire, at least IMPLICIT OF BAPTISM, and this is called Baptism of Desire”.
In Sacred Scripture Our Lord alludes frequently to the internal dispositions, which must precede the outward manifestation of faith. In verses John 3:3-8, Christ speaks of Baptism five times but Baptism of water only once. For instance, He mentions the man “who is born of the spirit” (6, 8).
Baptism by Blood (in the case of abortion and infanticide)
The Catholic Church also teaches that unbaptized martyrs will be saved through “baptism by blood”. In this case, a person is murdered for their Christian profession before the victim has received baptism.
Just as the Holy Innocents were murdered by Herod in Bethlehem at the time of Christ’s birth, so all aborted babies die for the cause of Christ. On account of this, they are accounted as martyrs just as the Catholic Church reckons the Holy Innocents of Bethlehem as martyrs. These infants are unbaptized but they die as witnesses to Christ’s incarnation. Consequently, they are redeemed.
St. Thomas States, “some have received the invisible sanctification without visible sacraments, and to their profit; but though it is possible to have the visible sanctification, consisting in a visible sacrament, without the invisible sanctification, it will be to no profit.” Since, therefore, the sacrament of Baptism pertains to the visible sanctification; it seems that a man can obtain salvation without the sacrament of Baptism, by means of the invisible sanctification”.[14]
Further the Catechism of Pope St. Pius X states that “The absence of Baptism can be supplied by martyrdom, which is called Baptism of Blood, or by an act of perfect love of God, or of contrition, along with the desire, at least IMPLICIT OF BAPTISM, and this is called Baptism of Desire”.
In Sacred Scripture Our Lord alludes frequently to the internal dispositions, which must precede the outward manifestation of faith. In verses John 3:3-8, Christ speaks of Baptism five times but Baptism of water only once. For instance, He mentions the man “who is born of the spirit” (6, 8).
Baptism by Blood (in the case of abortion and infanticide)
The Catholic Church also teaches that unbaptized martyrs will be saved through “baptism by blood”. In this case, a person is murdered for their Christian profession before the victim has received baptism.
Just as the Holy Innocents were murdered by Herod in Bethlehem at the time of Christ’s birth, so all aborted babies die for the cause of Christ. On account of this, they are accounted as martyrs just as the Catholic Church reckons the Holy Innocents of Bethlehem as martyrs. These infants are unbaptized but they die as witnesses to Christ’s incarnation. Consequently, they are redeemed.
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tbcrawford
Guest
However much “facts” are presented I believe in my own relationship with God.I pray and converse with my Father daily and trust in Him.I know He is all loving,and has unconditional love for us,more than any mother of father for their child even.I cannot imagine for one moment our Father woulod have innocent babies who die before the chance of baptism not live in heaven in eterna life without Him.That is simply inconsistent with our view of God
Why would I want to speneternity in heaven if my children were not there also?What sort of a mother would I be to not put my children first?
The salvation of miscarried,aborted,stillborn and new born babies who could not be baptised is safe in God’s loving hands.
Why would I want to speneternity in heaven if my children were not there also?What sort of a mother would I be to not put my children first?
The salvation of miscarried,aborted,stillborn and new born babies who could not be baptised is safe in God’s loving hands.
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PJM
Guest
***We don’t know for sure as it’s not addressed in the Bible. My guess is NOT by water, but perhaps by desire, which could manifest itself by the desire of there parents for them to have been Baptized.
Then like now, rest in the Divine Judgement of a MUST BE fair and just God, who has time and again gone to extremes to prove His love for and to be in relationship with us.
Love and prayers, Pat***
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Shin
Guest
I do not know that saints you quoted taught that baptism of desire or blood was available for infants, especially the former – quite the opposite, since the age of reason was not reached I know of no case where that has been taught, but demonstrate it if you can from -authority-. The children who died in Old Testament times, the holy innocents, died under the Old Law, and so baptism did not apply to them. Ditto for the ‘good thief’.
Moreover these are not dogmas but theological speculations.
Moreover you say, ‘innocent’ but we are born in sin, and without original sin, there is in fact no need for Christ’s sacrifice, the gates of Heaven would be open by default. That is heresy.
You seem think that the saints, bishops, doctors, popes and Ecumenical Councils that have taught limbo are somehow deficient compared to your sentimental heart. They love somehow less, know God somehow less. Despite the fact that these many of these people walked and talked with God. Don’t put yourself in such a high place of judgement. We come to the Church to learn what God’s will is, not to tell Him what is fair and just.
We learn what is true from God, and accept it, rather than take what we think should be and dictate it.
Everyone in Heaven is perfectly happy, however many or few of their family are there with them. I think there are hardly any people who do not in fact have relatives in Hell or friends from earth there.
Moreover limbo or the paradise of the fathers is not such an unpleasant place, it is simply a different state of being that people in Heaven could communicate certainly believe.
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tbcrawford
Guest
You are entitled to your opinion as everyone is.Mine is different to you,yet we both quote the Catholic Churches views as we separately see them.I do not wish to argue with you.Yes I am offended at your rudeness by saying I am committing heresy?!?,my sentimental heart, and so forth.I do not know that saints you quoted taught that baptism of desire or blood was available for infants, especially the former – quite the opposite, since the age of reason was not reached I know of no case where that has been taught, but demonstrate it if you can from -authority-. The children who died in Old Testament times, the holy innocents, died under the Old Law, and so baptism did not apply to them. Ditto for the ‘good thief’.
Moreover these are not dogmas but theological speculations.
Moreover you say, ‘innocent’ but we are born in sin, and without original sin, there is in fact no need for Christ’s sacrifice, the gates of Heaven would be open by default. That is heresy.
You seem think that the saints, bishops, doctors, popes and Ecumenical Councils that have taught limbo are somehow deficient compared to your sentimental heart. They love somehow less, know God somehow less. Despite the fact that these many of these people walked and talked with God. Don’t put yourself in such a high place of judgement. We come to the Church to learn what God’s will is, not to tell Him what is fair and just.
We learn what is true from God, and accept it, rather than take what we think should be and dictate it.
Everyone in Heaven is perfectly happy, however many or few of their family are there with them. I think there are hardly any people who do not in fact have relatives in Hell or friends from earth there.
Moreover limbo or the paradise of the fathers is not such an unpleasant place, it is simply a different state of being that people in Heaven could communicate certainly believe.
I am leaving this thread but in the knowledge i have given you some other saints views and that of Pope St.Pius X .God bless you Shin.I wish you well.
S
Shin
Guest
I wish you well too. God bless you.
But I want to say you should not be offended at being told something is heresy, it is not something a person says for the sake of offense, but for helping you to realize what is a deadly error.
It is a dogma of the Faith that we are born in original sin, this is not a matter of opinion. You can easily look this up.
Somehow we have to get from there to sanctifying grace. You have to look at the Church’s teachings as to how that occurs and understand what is set in stone and what is not. That is the Faith.
I think that most people make their Faith choices because of sentiment and feeling rather than based on the declarations of the Church and Revelation. If you haven’t… I am thankful… most people though in regards to issues like this do. And they need to change that. Otherwise how do we convert? We are not we are converting the religion, the teachings of Christ.
Peace!
L
LutheranDK
Guest
I do - but my question STILL stands unanswered:
You obviously count on some kind of “age of reason”; until which there’s essentially a free pass, yet you (wisely, but I’m not sure that it’s logically sound…) do not want to set a fixed “date” or “year” for it.
Now, the question is no longer on WHEN that “age of reason” is (so I’m no longer asking you for a digit), but WHERE you got that…rather comfortable teaching from?
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