Is this a good way to respond to the Euthyphro dilemma?

  • Thread starter Thread starter JDGaney
  • Start date Start date
Status
Not open for further replies.
In all honesty, I don’t understand why this is a dilemma. To me the answer is simple: God is good by virtue of being God. This also jives with the doctrine that God is omnipotent. What is or isn’t good is solely determined by God’s will. How else would one explain the mass genocide in the OT and the pacifist notions in the NT? People usually counter this by saying that God is immutable. I agree, but I don’t think changing one’s mind means changing one’s nature. The way I see it, the immutability quality applies only to nature. Otherwise, you have a ton of contradictions throughout the scriptures and everything is just awash at best. Did God not change his mind and take a different course of action when Moses begged him not to kill all of the Israelites? The answer seems pretty obvious.

Just my 2 cents.
The Bible is written from a finite beings perspective and not everything is to be taken literally or as a true historic representation of God’s behavior in the past.

God does not change his mind. Gods mind is identical with God’s will and Gods will is identical with God’s nature and God’s nature cannot change.
 
The Bible is written from a finite beings perspective and not everything is to be taken literally or as a true historic representation of God’s behavior in the past.

God does not change his mind. Gods mind is identical with God’s will and Gods will is identical with God’s nature and God’s nature cannot change.
This really isn’t much of an argument, but rather just a simple assertion.

Why should I accept the idea that God’s mind and nature are the same as God’s will? You’ve given me no reason to accept this premise. And it seems intuitively wrong. God is recorded as exhibiting emotion. I too have emotions. And from my own personal experience, emotions are often not within the control so-to-speak of my will. This implies that there is something that is a part of me that is separate from my will. Why would there ever be a difference with God, especially since I am made in His image?

The only real work around that you’ve given to my contention is that my premise is wrong. You argue that certain actions like genocide were never committed with God’s sanction. Nevermind the fact that these actions are what directly led to the establishment of Israel. It is no small matter of details, unlike if Saul committed suicide or was killed (which is negligible). The problem with your premise is that if we are willing to admit such a huge error, then why can I not use the same argument against you to preclude any evidence from scripture that you might provide with regards to the unitary aspect of God’s will, mind, and nature?

Your case isn’t really compelling as is. And even should you answer these questions, you would still need to account for a way as to how the alternative would not violate the omnipotent principal of God.
 
God does not change his mind. Gods mind is identical with God’s will and Gods will is identical with God’s nature and God’s nature cannot change.
God’s nature doesn’t change but He causes change. He is not inert and static but active and dynamic; otherwise He wouldn’t be identified with Love which is always creative and often unpredictable. If nothing ever develops in Heaven it would be Hell!
 
This really isn’t much of an argument, but rather just a simple assertion.

Why should I accept the idea that God’s mind and nature are the same as God’s will? You’ve given me no reason to accept this premise. And it seems intuitively wrong. God is recorded as exhibiting emotion. I too have emotions. And from my own personal experience, emotions are often not within the control so-to-speak of my will. This implies that there is something that is a part of me that is separate from my will. Why would there ever be a difference with God, especially since I am made in His image?

The only real work around that you’ve given to my contention is that my premise is wrong. You argue that certain actions like genocide were never committed with God’s sanction. Nevermind the fact that these actions are what directly led to the establishment of Israel. It is no small matter of details, unlike if Saul committed suicide or was killed (which is negligible). The problem with your premise is that if we are willing to admit such a huge error, then why can I not use the same argument against you to preclude any evidence from scripture that you might provide with regards to the unitary aspect of God’s will, mind, and nature?

Your case isn’t really compelling as is. And even should you answer these questions, you would still need to account for a way as to how the alternative would not violate the omnipotent principal of God.
You fail to understand the purpose of Scripture. You are under the impression that scripture provides an absolute metaphysical and historical representation of God’s nature and his actions. I do not go to Scripture alone to understand what God objectively is. It gives us some idea of God but if all of it is taken literally as you seem to take it then there is a great many errors in it. Anyone who seriously studies Catholic tradition can see for themselves that the Catholic church does not look to the bible alone for their understanding of God; we are not sola scripture. There is a huge philosophical tradition that has existed for thousands of years along side the faith. There is is also many schools of biblical interpretation within the church itself. You cannot dictate to me that how you approach scripture needs to be refuted. Why should i accept your interpretation when it is clear that you are unaware of the great body of Catholic tradition itself?
 
God’s nature doesn’t change but He causes change. He is not inert and static but active and dynamic; otherwise He wouldn’t be identified with Love which is always creative and often unpredictable. If nothing ever develops in Heaven it would be Hell!
God is a timeless act. That does not mean that God is static, but it does mean that what God does is and has always been what it is and has not changed and will never change forever. God’s nature does not act in physical sequences and is not dynamic in a physical sense.
 
You fail to understand the purpose of Scripture. You are under the impression that scripture provides an absolute metaphysical and historical representation of God’s nature and his actions. I do not go to Scripture alone to understand what God objectively is. It gives us some idea of God but if all of it is taken literally as you seem to take it then there is a great many errors in it. Anyone who seriously studies Catholic tradition can see for themselves that the Catholic church does not look to the bible alone for their understanding of God; we are not sola scripture. There is a huge philosophical tradition that has existed for thousands of years along side the faith. There is is also many schools of biblical interpretation within the church itself. You cannot dictate to me that how you approach scripture needs to be refuted. Why should i accept your interpretation when it is clear that you are unaware of the great body of Catholic tradition itself?
I never dictated anything to you. I simply asked for some reasoning or scriptural proof for your assertions. And asking for scripture does not mean that I endorse sola scriptura. I am assuming that we are talking specifically about the Christian god here, so it would seem appropriate to use scripture at least somewhere in the discussion.

And I am very well aware of the great body of Catholic tradition. I was born Catholic, left the it, converted back only to leave it again. And I did all that while thoroughly studying the tradition. In fact, I still study it, particularly its tradition during the medieval period. Even if I was unaware, I don’t see how that would have any bearing on the simple request that I asked:

What are the reasons for your argument? What logic do you base it on? And what scripture, if you use it, do you use as baseline to work alongside your logical argument? And is your argument equally as plausible as mine? Or does it preclude my position?

These are simple requests to meet, but if you really want to waste everyone’s time by saying, “oh, you are just some ignorant pleb who is deprived of the Catholic tradition,” then might I suggest you take recourse to Hume’s advice in similar circumstances: cast your ideas to the flames.
 
I never dictated anything to you. I simply asked for some reasoning or scriptural proof for your assertions. And asking for scripture does not mean that I endorse sola scriptura. I am assuming that we are talking specifically about the Christian god here, so it would seem appropriate to use scripture at least somewhere in the discussion.

And I am very well aware of the great body of Catholic tradition. I was born Catholic, left the it, converted back only to leave it again. And I did all that while thoroughly studying the tradition. In fact, I still study it, particularly its tradition during the medieval period. Even if I was unaware, I don’t see how that would have any bearing on the simple request that I asked:

What are the reasons for your argument? What logic do you base it on? And what scripture, if you use it, do you use as baseline to work alongside your logical argument? And is your argument equally as plausible as mine? Or does it preclude my position?

These are simple requests to meet, but if you really want to waste everyone’s time by saying, “oh, you are just some ignorant pleb who is deprived of the Catholic tradition,” then might I suggest you take recourse to Hume’s advice in similar circumstances: cast your ideas to the flames.
I apologize if i came across as treating you as an ignorant pleb, but it seemed you were saying that because Scripture presents God as a changing entity existing within time and space that therefore the only reasonable conclusion is to think God changes. This is equally just an assertion since i would have to believe that the bible is simply a metaphysical and historical analysis of God’s behavior. I guess i don’t see why i have to begin with that assumption. It seems to me that the bible portrays or represents the spiritual and conceptual development of Israel in regards God and their faith in his divine justice; which ultimately culminates in the birth of Christ and coming to grips with that revelation.

In so far as proving my idea of God, i simply don’t have the energy to prove that my idea of God is consistent with the God we find in Scripture. All i can say is that there are a number of saints and a large philosophical tradition in the church who share my understanding. The Catholic Church itself makes it clear that God is not a physical being in time and space but rather is the creator of these things.
 
God’s nature doesn’t change but He causes change. He is not inert and static but active and dynamic; otherwise He wouldn’t be identified with Love which is always creative and often unpredictable. If nothing ever develops in Heaven it would be Hell!
God is certainly dynamic in a spiritual sense. His nature is immutable but His activity is unceasing. He sustains everyone and everything in existence. Heaven is not a passive state but a dynamic Communion of Saints who respond to our prayers and inspire us to follow their example. The essence of love is fertility and creativity without which there would be no joy or fulfilment. There can be no greater stimulus than the Beatific Vision of God in all His Glory. All the great works of art, music and literature are but a foretaste of the beauty of Paradise…
 
God is certainly dynamic in a spiritual sense. His nature is immutable but His activity is unceasing. He sustains everyone and everything in existence. Heaven is not a passive state but a dynamic Communion of Saints who respond to our prayers and inspire us to follow their example. The essence of love is fertility and creativity without which there would be no joy or fulfilment. There can be no greater stimulus than the Beatific Vision of God in all His Glory. All the great works of art, music and literature are but a foretaste of the beauty of Paradise…
If by this you mean that God is the fullness of actuality, the fullness of creativity, the fullness of life, then i agree that God is not a static passive entity but instead is the very reality in which we move and have our being.

If you are saying that God changes from one moment to the next then i cannot agree precisely because God is the fullness of actuality. There is no potency in God’s being because he already is everything that he does from all eternity. God is not potentially here or there but simply “is” from all eternity even though from our perspective he may appear to be here or there on acting within some particular time sequence.

I guess what i am trying to say is that it does not make logical sense for God to change his mind on a particular matter because that would mean God has potency in his being and is therefore not the fullness of actuality. One certainly cannot call such an indecisive being the fullness of truth.
 
I apologize if i came across as treating you as an ignorant pleb, but it seemed you were saying that because Scripture presents God as a changing entity existing within time and space that therefore the only reasonable conclusion is to think God changes. This is equally just an assertion since i would have to believe that the bible is simply a metaphysical and historical analysis of God’s behavior. I guess i don’t see why i have to begin with that assumption. It seems to me that the bible portrays or represents the spiritual and conceptual development of Israel in regards God and their faith in his divine justice; which ultimately culminates in the birth of Christ and coming to grips with that revelation.

In so far as proving my idea of God, i simply don’t have the energy to prove that my idea of God is consistent with the God we find in Scripture. All i can say is that there are a number of saints and a large philosophical tradition in the church who share my understanding. The Catholic Church itself makes it clear that God is not a physical being in time and space but rather is the creator of these things.
Well this is pretty difficult. I mean, what is time? The classical notion that Galileo and Newton held is completely wrong, as modern physics has so aptly demonstrated. And Einstein’s might very well be wrong too since we know that there has to be a unifying theory for general relativity and quantum mechanics, but it hasn’t been successfully formulated yet. I think it is safe to say though that light, which is arguably time itself, has some relation with material matter. Time itself seems to be nothing more than relative material perception. So to say God exists outside time is correct because God is spirit.

Still I don’t see how His interactions with material matter or within time would preclude anything about God changing His mind on things. Must spirit be consistent in will? Why would will affect nature?
 
Well this is pretty difficult. I mean, what is time? The classical notion that Galileo and Newton held is completely wrong, as modern physics has so aptly demonstrated. And Einstein’s might very well be wrong too since we know that there has to be a unifying theory for general relativity and quantum mechanics, but it hasn’t been successfully formulated yet. I think it is safe to say though that light, which is arguably time itself, has some relation with material matter. Time itself seems to be nothing more than relative material perception. So to say God exists outside time is correct because God is spirit.

Still I don’t see how His interactions with material matter or within time would preclude anything about God changing His mind on things. Must spirit be consistent in will? Why would will affect nature?
God’s will is identical with his nature.

God is absolute perfection and so God is not in a state of becoming. Things change because they have potency. Relativity is irrelevant. That which has potency is not complete; it is in a process of becoming. It is not a fully actual being, but rather it is a being that is limited and is continuously moving from potency to act. God is pure actuality. God is everything that he is and ever will be. God cannot evolve or change or become something else or change his mind. A Perfect being doesn’t change his or her will or opinion since God’s will is perfect. The idea of God changing his mind implies imperfection, a limitation or ignorance.

I mean no disrespect but i would never worship an indecisive ignorant being. I do not personally worship such a being.
 
If by this you mean that God is the fullness of actuality, the fullness of creativity, the fullness of life, then i agree that God is not a static passive entity but instead is the very reality in which we move and have our being.

If you are saying that God changes from one moment to the next then i cannot agree precisely because God is the fullness of actuality. There is no potency in God’s being because he already is everything that he does from all eternity. God is not potentially here or there but simply “is” from all eternity even though from our perspective he may appear to be here or there on acting within some particular time sequence.

I guess what i am trying to say is that it does not make logical sense for God to change his mind on a particular matter because that would mean God has potency in his being and is therefore not the fullness of actuality. One certainly cannot call such an indecisive being the fullness of truth.
I stated quite clearly that His nature is immutable.🙂
 
God’s will is identical with his nature.

God is absolute perfection and so God is not in a state of becoming. Things change because they have potency. Relativity is irrelevant. That which has potency is not complete; it is in a process of becoming. It is not a fully actual being, but rather it is a being that is limited and is continuously moving from potency to act. God is pure actuality. God is everything that he is and ever will be. God cannot evolve or change or become something else or change his mind. A Perfect being doesn’t change his or her will or opinion since God’s will is perfect. The idea of God changing his mind implies imperfection, a limitation or ignorance.

I mean no disrespect but i would never worship an indecisive ignorant being. I do not personally worship such a being.
Change of will is not a sign of imperfection. If God is the highest authority, even if He did change His will, He would still be perfect. That’s been my point all along. And my argument of time is totally relevant. If all it means by “existing outside time” is that God is spirit, then it no longer precludes the idea that spirit cannot cannot function in a similar manner.

You still haven’t made the case that will is the same as nature in the case of God.

Has it ever occurred to anyone that God changing his mind is not a sign of ignorance, but rather that foreknowledge is not enough to satiate the Lord’s decision making? Could it not be that experience itself is what the Lord desires as well? Is it not the interaction between Man and God that transcends the mind-body problem, a unique experience in and of itself, something that supports this hypothesis of mine?
 
Change of will is not a sign of imperfection. If God is the highest authority, even if He did change His will, He would still be perfect. That’s been my point all along. And my argument of time is totally relevant. If all it means by “existing outside time” is that God is spirit, then it no longer precludes the idea that spirit cannot cannot function in a similar manner.

You still haven’t made the case that will is the same as nature in the case of God.

Has it ever occurred to anyone that God changing his mind is not a sign of ignorance, but rather that foreknowledge is not enough to satiate the Lord’s decision making? Could it not be that experience itself is what the Lord desires as well? Is it not the interaction between Man and God that transcends the mind-body problem, a unique experience in and of itself, something that supports this hypothesis of mine?
👍 Changing your mind doesn’t necessarily mean you are inconsistent. The development of doctrine is a human example of how the truth is never static. God’s goodness and creativity are unlimited and unending. Otherwise Heaven would be more like Hell! Cynics believe it must be boring to live forever but that is because of their limitations, not the limitations of reality. Anyone who appreciates the value of life knows we’ll never want to vanish as if we had never existed. It would make a mockery of Christ’s sacrifice on the Cross. That is why it is important to reject the notion that God is indecisive and ignorant if He is dynamic and progressive. There is no limit to the potential of divine love…
 
Genesis 6:6
The LORD regretted that he had made human beings on the
earth, and his heart was deeply troubled. …

We made too many evil decisions. At one point in time, it was so bad this entire project looked like it was doomed, except for Noah and his family. In the ark came a new Eden, a renewed relationship with God; humanity cleansed through baptism. It’s all a relationship between God and ourselves. He is unchanging love.
 
This was probably already said… I didn’t read the thread.

But God’s will is not separate from his essence, and the same is with good. Goodness is his essence, and his will is that same essence. They are one in the same. So the dilemma is splitting hairs.
 
Change of will is not a sign of imperfection. If God is the highest authority, even if He did change His will, He would still be perfect. That’s been my point all along. And my argument of time is totally relevant. If all it means by “existing outside time” is that God is spirit, then it no longer precludes the idea that spirit cannot cannot function in a similar manner.

You still haven’t made the case that will is the same as nature in the case of God.

Has it ever occurred to anyone that God changing his mind is not a sign of ignorance, but rather that foreknowledge is not enough to satiate the Lord’s decision making?** Could it not be that experience itself is what the Lord desires as well**? Is it not the interaction between Man and God that transcends the mind-body problem, a unique experience in and of itself, something that supports this hypothesis of mine?
I have no idea what you mean by a perfect being.

It is not a scientific theory that change does not exist. Thats a philosophical idea and not a very logical one if you agree with evolution or big bang theory or any scientific measurement where change plays an intrinsic role.

So it is your position that God has potency in his being? God is moving from potency to act in your opinion? God needs to be satisfied before making a decision? A Perfect being needs to satisfy himself with pleasure? In other-words you are of the school of thought that Gods creation is moving God from potency to actuality because you take all of scripture as a literal description of an historical event involving God’s behavior?
 
I have no idea what you mean by a perfect being.

It is not a scientific theory that change does not exist. Thats a philosophical idea and not a very logical one if you agree with evolution or big bang theory or any scientific measurement where change plays an intrinsic role.

So it is your position that God has potency in his being? God is moving from potency to act in your opinion? God needs to be satisfied before making a decision? A Perfect being needs to satisfy himself with pleasure? In other-words you are of the school of thought that Gods creation is moving God from potency to actuality because you take all of scripture as a literal description of an historical event involving God’s behavior?
What I mean by God being perfect is that he is perfect by virtue of being of the highest authority and the creator of all things. For me, that alone entitles him to worship. Qualities are ancillary to this issue for me.

I’m not saying that change doesn’t exist. All I am saying is that time itself is a physical and material phenomenon that can just as equally apply to spirit. There can just as plausibly be a “spirit time.” Time isn’t a spectrum imo.

I’m not a scriptural literalist. Perhaps I am misunderstanding your label here, but what I understand a literalist to be is someone who believes the earth was really made in 6 days, etc. I’m not that kind of literalist. The more proper term of understanding my perspective would be that I am a Tychonian. I find a great use for Tychonius’ seven rules for scriptural interpretation, which he wrote down in his Book of Rules. It’s more or less a mixture of allegorical leanings and literal leanings. It’s difficult to explain in full without reading itself. Augustine, who approved of Tychonius’ rules, gives a pretty nice summary of them in On Christian Doctrine Book 3 chapter 30. His summary extends till the end of Book 3. I’d recommend eventually reading Tychonius himself though.

I am a little puzzled by your potency and action terms too. All I am saying is that God has a nature. And natures, as proclaimed at Chalcedon, are paired with a will. They are distinct but part of the same entity so to speak. God changing his will does not affect his nature, just as changing my mind does not change my nature as well.

I don’t think pleasure is the right term either. I’m just saying that God obviously wants to experience something otherwise he never would have created anything. He would have simply been satisfied with his foreknowledge without ever creating. It is not out of need that he does things. He can do whatever he wants. But rather, it is out of want that he does things. Fully grasping that however is above our understanding, but we can at least hope to grasp some bits.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top