Is this all the CC has?

[teancum79]

Disprove the Historical Fact

What?

Some guy claimed he wanted to lead the church and claimed to have found a jar with some stuff in it.

A web page that reference’s wiki is not much of a fact. I don’t really care if that happened or not.

 

[dosdog]

What?

Some guy claimed he wanted to lead the church and claimed to have found a jar with some stuff in it.

A web page that reference’s wiki is not much of a fact. I don’t really care if that happened or not.

Until you prove otherwise Strang was the True leader & Prophet of the LDS Church

 

[teancum79]

And I’m the current pope because I said so get real.

 

[dosdog]

And I’m the current pope because I said so get real

Is this all the Mormons have?
.

No I am deadly serious

After that

Prove they did not use the Septuagint

Perhaps one of the most important instances of the New Testament writers’ use of the Septuagint is Matthew 1.23, in which the Gospel writer quotes Isaiah 7.14. The Hebrew word almah, argued by some in our day to indicate a young woman of marriageable age but one not necessarily a virgin, is translated in the Septuagint as parthenos. This Greek word means virgin, indicating that the Jewish translators before the time of Christ understood the prophecy correctly. Other Jews after the advent of the Christian era translated the word into Greek as neanis, ‘young woman’, in order to distance the prophecy from fulfilment in Jesus. Matthew quotes the Septuagint, applying it to Jesus.

Other New Testament writers also used the clear translation from the Septuagint in their writings. In Hebrews 1.6 is a quotation from Psalm 97.7. The Old Testament passage speaks of the “graven images”, “idols” and “gods”. The final word in Hebrew is elohim (gods); the Septuagint renders this aggeloi (angels). The book of Hebrews takes the Septuagint rendering and incorporates it, in which is urged that “all the angels of God” worship Jesus.

apostlesbible.com/esvws.htm

Care to continue Coach?

MARGINAL REFERENCES TO THE APOCRYHA DELETED
Apocrypha in the margins of the Old and New Testaments of the King James version as printed in 1611

Mat 6:7 Ecclesiasticus 7:14
Mat 23:37 -2 Esdras 1
Mat 27:43 -Wisdom 2
Luke 6:31 -Tobit 4
Luke 14:13 -Tobit 4
John 10:22 -1 Maccabees 4
Rom 9:21 -Wisdom 15
Rom 11:34 -Wisdom 9
2 Cor 9:7 -Ecclesiasticus 35
Heb 1:3 -Wisdom 7
Heb 11:35 -2 Maccabees 7

Matthew 6 7 And when you are praying, speak not much, as the heathens. For they think that in their much speaking they may be heard.

Ecclesiasticus 7:14. Be not willing to make any manner of lie: for the custom thereof is not good. 7:15. Be not full of words in a multitude of ancients, and repeat not the word in thy prayer.

Matthew 23 37 Jerusalem, Jerusalem, thou that killest the prophets, and stonest them that are sent unto thee, how often would I have gathered together thy children, as the hen doth gather her chickens under her wings, and thou wouldest not?

2Esdr 1:30 I gathered you together, as a hen gathereth her chickens under her wings: but now, what shall I do unto you? I will cast you out from my face.31 When ye offer unto me, I will turn my face from you: for your solemn feastdays, your new moons, and your circumcisions, have I forsaken. 32 I sent unto you my servants the prophets, whom ye have taken and slain, and torn their bodies in pieces, whose blood I will require of your hands, saith the Lord.

Luke 14 13 But when thou makest a feast, call the poor, the maimed, the lame, and the blind; 14 And thou shalt be blessed, because they have not wherewith to make thee recompense: for recompense shall be made thee at the resurrection of the just.

Tobias 4:7. Give alms out of thy substance, and turn not away thy face from any poor person: for so it shall come to pass that the face of the Lord shall not be turned from thee 8. According to thy ability be merciful.
scripturecatholic.com/septuagint.html
ewtn.com/library/ANSWERS/DEUTEROS.HTM

one thing you can never find—anywhere in the Protestant Old Testament, from front to back, from Genesis to Malachi—is someone being tortured and refusing to accept release for the sake of a better resurrection.(Heb. 11:35). If you want to find that, you have to look in the Catholic Old Testament—in the deuterocanonical books Martin Luther cut out of his Bible.

The story is found in 2 Maccabees 7, during the Maccabean persecution

2 Machabees 1 36 And Nehemias called this place Nephthar, which is interpreted purification. But many call it Nephi.

 

[teancum79]

No I am deadly serious

So help me out here. One guy claims to be something so he is auto in unless I can prove otherwise.

That’s absurd.

 

[dosdog]

So help me out here. One guy claims to be something so he is auto in unless I can prove otherwise.

That’s absurd.

Is this all the Mormons have?

 

[teancum79]

sorry I must have missed when I started taking orders from you. Could you remind me of when that happened?

 

[zaffiroborant]

I think it is quite straight froward. In the bulk of my conversations here I most often here that historical facts prove the CC to be right. I find it odd that a people professing beliefs in things that can not be supported by history would make history their main point of validity.

They don’t, it’s you who keeps harping on history. You make statements based on history that you believe proves the validity of the LDS and as a result they rebut. You put forward that there was an apostasy and the priesthood authority was taken away (your take on history). They respond with their take on history as a response to your claims.

Again if you are really interested in the Catholic faith you could read some of the other boards here. Others mentioned this on your “Is this all…” thread, there’s Spirituality, Catholic Living, Moral Theology and Social Justice among others.

I doubt you’ll bother to check any of those out since you hold the answers in such contempt (though unseen) as shown here:

I’m more or less only here.

I prefer an honest (even if not perfectly informed) answer to a sound bite and it is from the conversation here that the question arises.

I can’t understand why you think you’ll get dishonest answers from people on the Catholic Living board or any of the others I mentioned

 

[teancum79]

So help us understand, then. Is this

inaccurate? What’s with the undergarments?

I never read the book.

As to garments its a peal swine thing.

 

[teancum79]

They don’t, it’s you who keeps harping on history. You make statements based on history that you believe proves the validity of the LDS and as a result they rebut. You put forward that there was an apostasy and the priesthood authority was taken away (your take on history). They respond with their take on history as a response to your claims.

Again if you are really interested in the Catholic faith you could read some of the other boards here. Others mentioned this on your “Is this all…” thread, there’s Spirituality, Catholic Living, Moral Theology and Social Justice among others.

I doubt you’ll bother to check any of those out since you hold the answers in such contempt (though unseen) as shown here:

I can’t understand why you think you’ll get dishonest answers from people on the Catholic Living board or any of the others I mentioned

Well I’ve not been there, but my past experiences have taught me that many people who are a bit over the top for a cause place the cause above thing like honesty. (Graphs that where manipulated awhile back to promote a personal belief about global warming as being scientific being only one of many).

 

[zaffiroborant]

Well I’ve not been there, but my past experiences have taught me that many people who are a bit over the top for a cause place the cause above thing like honesty. (Graphs that where manipulated awhile back to promote a personal belief about global warming as being scientific being only one of many).

And why do you think that Catholics are over the top for a cause? You admit you haven’t bothered to read any thing by Catholics concerning their beliefs so why should anyone accept that you are here to learn?

You accuse those who post on those boards with out even glancing at what they have to say and have the nerve to claim that you are misunderstood. Unbelievable

 

[elts1956]

They also present a couple of questionable “miracles”.

The Catholic Church is founded on one of the greatest Miracles in History, the Resurrection of Christ from the dead. It is also a Miracle the Catholic Church has survived for 2000 years given how it has been beleaguered by non believers.

So what Miracles are you talking about?

 

[Benadam]

I simply don’t think the CC and the Church set up in 30ish AD are the same. I find too many differences between what the church now believes and what I find in the Bible.

This kind of statement confuses me. I struggle to understand how a person can think they know about a people who lived two thousand years ago, with no connection whatsoever to the people themselves.

How can anyone know what was in the hearts and minds of a people two thousand years ago with no connection to those people?

It baffles me that anyone would argue that a connection to those people is inconsequential to knowing the truth about those people, especially based on accusation; “well they began to lie about the True Faith.”

The people God established lied and the people insert name________ established in ‘God’s name’ know what the people God established lied about because God told insert name_________and authorized insert name_________to establish a people in insert name_________'s name

How can anyone not see that if that were true, then the True Faith couldn’t have EVER been true? Even if it was**,** how could anyone know what the Truth ‘was’ without some connection to people who preserved it from the lie?

Teancum, really, what makes you believe that what you find in the bible or anyone finds could be authenticated if the True Faith was lost?

What could possibly authenticate something lost if that something was something only God could authorize as coming from God?
A creature?

Jesus already authorized a faith on earth, if it is lost who can be a greater author of Truth than God Himself in the Flesh on earth? Yet that is what makes sense to some. That God came to earth as a man and what God authorized on earth requires some creature to come afterwards and authorize what God authored…

I really don’t expect the concepts in this post to be addressed because I think people who make the above quoted statements are baffled by them.

 

[po18guy]

I hear very often evidence this and fact that. Is that really all the CC has going for it. That’s all I see being talked about here is a selected version of history.

The church founded by Christ has an unimaginable depth of riches in faith and spirituality. One cannot live long enough to probe the depths of it. The ways in which one can worship God, serve God, be devoted to Him, and seek spiritual direction is unlimited. These forums generally address relatively limited issues, and spend a large amount of time correcting heresies. Its history is traceable directly back to Christ. Each Catholic priest can trace his ordination back to one of the Twelve Apostles.

Of course, you believe that a “total apostasy” occurred in the past. We rely on the words of Christ that the gates of hell would NEVER prevail against her. As you can see, she is constantly attacked from both without and within. In my 21 years in the church, I see it ever deepening with no end in sight, except the Lord’s call. And that is a new beginning!

Keep looking and keep asking. Once you get past the centuries of fables and the pop media obsession with tearing her down, you will be amazed at what you see.

Christ’s peace be with you.

 

[Eden]

sorry 200ad ish creation (though I think is was in 300 ish that is became offical). The first 2 quotes seem quite consistent with the Bible and LDS view of God.

Oh, right. Now it’s 200ish. It must be hard having to contort into a pretzel all the time to make your beliefs fit the facts.

But if you still think Ignatius of Antioch and Justin Martyr sound Mormon, by all means, read the rest of their writings.

Some more quotes from Ignatius of Antioch:

Ignatius, also called Theophorus, to the Church at Ephesus in Asia . . . predestined from eternity for a glory that is lasting and unchanging, united and chosen through true suffering by the will of the Father **in Jesus Christ our God **(Letter to the Ephesians 1 A.D. 110]).

To the Church beloved and enlightened after the love of Jesus Christ, our God, by the will of him that has willed everything which is (Letter to the Romans 1 A.D. 110]).

And my favorite from Ignatius of Antioch:

“Wherever the bishop appears, let the people be there, just as wherever Jesus Christ is, there is the Catholic Church.”[Epistle to the Smyrneans 8:2.].

As a background, you may be interested in knowing that Ignatius of Antioch was the auditor to the Apostle John and studied at his feet. Are you going to tell me that Ignatius corrupted the teachings of the Apostles by saying Jesus is God?

And as for Justin Martyr, he describes early Christian worship which is almost identical to the Mass today and the Real Presence in the Eucharist. This is *not *Mormon worship:

crossroadsinitiative.com/library_article/532/Sunday_Eucharist_in_the_Early_Church_St._Justin_Martyr.html

 

[elts1956]

They also present a couple of questionable “miracles”.

I don’t think I’ve attacked you at all.

My main question was the holding to history vs other approaches for the validity of the catholic faith. A few people have presented some different points of view. most though have held to “history proves me right.”

I find that approach to be interesting. History like most things is subject to a lot of differing views. in hard science we can always retest an idea math is fairly static too. I think it is interesting that people want to have the proof of their faith to be as solid as a hard science when it is based on a mixture of soft science and beliefs with not scientific foundation.

While the description of History is sometimes the result of the personal interpretation of the writers of events, I would think it very difficult for anyone to misinterpret the Religious History of the Catholic Church whose writers and interpreters which, among other writings, base their knowledge and understanding of Church Doctrine on the history and knowledge and also experience of those who have passed this particular History down through 2000 years to the present time. This is how the Catholic Church and its history of Sacraments, Traditions, Dogmas, Doctrines and Scripture has been passed down from the time of Christ and His Apostles. The Catholic Church is not based on untruths, but on the truths given by Christ to His Apostles, His Apostles to their students, the Early Fathers of the Church, to the Bishops and Popes of His Church down to the present time. Before any proclamation of theology was and is given today by the Pope and the Magesterium these tomes containing scripture,doctrine and dogma are thoroughly studied. The Catholic Church has the all the “fullness” and knowledge given by Christ as compared to that of other churches which have only part of the truth because of the divisions caused by the pride of those who refuse to believe. How much History does one need to become curious and study whether this is true or not. Studied with an open mind, one will find all the information given by the Catholic Church hard to disprove.

No, the beliefs of Catholics are not Science, they are Faith.

 

[elts1956]

Why priest don’t marry:
CC version to make sure they are focused on their duties living a higher life.

World History guys with sons pass on their property. If priest don’t marry the church keeps the gold.

Crusades: I’ll admit I’ve not checked the official CC position, but I doubt that military conquest and fund raising to out do the last Pope is on the list.

Constantine (sp) CC First empire to become a Christian.

History the guy was a pagan and was probably “baptized” on his death bed while unconscious.

I’ll wager there is much more, but those are the ones I remember off the top of my head.

Off the"top of my head" many priests, especially those belonging to a Religious Order take a vow of poverty. For those secular priests, not belonging to a specifc Religious order, their stipend is almost next to nothing. No big vacations there.

Crusades. True many, many individuals fought in the Crusades to “better” themselves. Being mortals (and greedy) caused much injustice in the Islamic World. The then Pope, Urbin II, called the Crusades to reclaim Jerusalem and other Holy places from Muslims. This was not doctrine, or dogma, but the determination of one man who felt compelled to have this happen. Imprudent judgement? Probably.

Constantine. Considered Pagan by many because he wasn’t Baptized until on his death bed. From some writings I have read, he didn’t want to be Baptized and then have to continually confess the sins he felt he was forced to commit in order to keep the Western Empire together. Very pragmatic?

CC and Constantine. The Church didn’t have the empire, Constantine did. To hold it together he called the Council of Nicea in 327 to try to get the Eastern and Western churches to agree on the same doctrine of belief. The result was the Nicene Creed which the Western Church agreed on, but some points were not accepted by the Eastern Church. The heresy of Arianism was quite strong at that time and the Council of Nicea was Constantine’s attempt to stop it. It should be remembered that at this time in history, the Catholic Church and the emperors were very much entwined as far as making laws went. There was no separation of Church and State.

 

[elts1956]

History failed to be “actual” on Jesus, the apostles, and what they did. It was a chaotic period open to corruption & interpretation.

If Jesus was really God, the least he could have done is manipulate reputable non-christian historians into making independent & accurate recordings of his life. and those of the apostles.

‘History failed to be “actual” on Jesus, the apostles, and what they did. It was a chaotic period open to corruption & interpretation.’ And your SOURCE is???

 

[Jimdandy]

Matthew 28:19 (NIV):Therefore go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit

Civilization has grown and changed much in 2000 years, yet human insecurities are still painfully transparent.

Live your faith, share it with others by living a pure and Holy life.

And respect the beliefs of others-God will judge the hearts of men-

 

[Bwsherman]

That is a rather enlightened view for these boards.

When I have another question I’ll asked it.

I do not understand the need for you be somewhat snippy with me. I was trying to be sincere. Maybe that is too difficult for you to believe based on your past experiences. However, I thought this thread was about your desire to know the Catholic Church better. If you do not have any questions, I do not understand the point.