Is this Amazonian Synod as bad as people are saying?

[Fauken]

Thanks, except for the women’s part (which is strange) and the part about colonialism (which I don’t agree completely), I don’t see the points as bad.

They’re not all necessarily bad. But why does there need to be a Synod over this? Why does this require the attention of so many bishops?

 

[AlbMagno]

The justification I heard is that native persons from the Amazon jungle are difficult to evangelize. Now there is also the problem of the fires, which require attention simply because the Church cares about thee environment (at least now).

 

[Fauken]

(Please Note: This uploaded content is no longer available.)

(Please Note: This uploaded content is no longer available.)

 

[Fauken]

The justification I heard is that native persons from the Amazon jungle are difficult to evangelize. Now there is also the problem of the fires, which require attention simply because the Church cares about thee environment (at least now).

Evangelization is one thing. The environment is another. Bishops are charged to be teachers. I see zero reason as to why the majority of their concern at this synod should resolve around ecology. The wordings in their documents are very vague and open to abuse.

 

[AlbMagno]

If bishops are teachers, should they care about poverty? The Church Fathers did. Or about secular education? The medieval bishops did. One could even argue that the environment is a matter of public health.

 

[Fauken]

If bishops are teachers, should they care about poverty? The Church Fathers did. Or about secular education? The medieval bishops did. One could even argue that the environment is a matter of public health.

When did I say they shouldn’t care about poverty or education? You’re giving reasons why all these things are important but not why bishops should be gathering together to deal with the environment as their top concern, instead of using a solution headed by lay people. Does the Church not have lay ecologists or doctors? Why do bishops have to try to solve this instead of putting their heads together regarding, say, the fact that a lot of Catholics don’t believe in the Real Presence? How about the attempts to violate the Seal of Confession in Australia and California? How about the fact the aftermath of Sex Abuse crisis still rocks the Church due to the malice/ignorance/incompetence of their successors?

 

[phil19034]

CRV:

I think the best course of action for the average layperson is to pray to God and ask His protection on those involved in this Synod.

Apart from this, what influence does the average layperson have in altering either the working document or the finished document? None. So I personally do not see the point in getting myself upset, anxious, troubled over what may happen as I can do nothing to change it, apart from imploring God to protect His Church.

I think we can also write letters to our bishops, the USCCB, etc

Well, I think it will need to be hundreds of letters per parish to have a massive effect.

But the point is, orthodox bishops need to know that the Catholics in the pews each weak will support orthodox teachings & the heretical bishops need to know they will face difficulties if they support heresy or rejection of traditional teachings

 

[graciew]

Do you realize what you are saying?
Do you think the USSBC will accept letters of complaint about a Synod which hasn t even started and iit is their brothers, their equals, bishops from other countries who preside it?
I hold your Bishops in higher esteem it seems…

 

[Tolle_Lege]

This synod is heavily influenced by the Germans, who just defied the Vatican by saying they are pushing forward with their own “synod” which will be used to include more women in ministry (i.e. create female priests), bless same-sex unions, empower the laity more, and “rethink” other Church teachings on sexual morality.

What the Germans want to do it take a completely foreign, uncivilized, un-Evangelized pagan culture, and severely dilute the Catholic faith to make it “approachable” for the Amazon tribes. Their thinking is that these pagan cultures are so far from Catholicism, that the only way we could possibly evangelize them is to compromise on certain issues in order to mesh Catholicism and jungle spirituality together. Then, “well, the Amazonians respect the wisdom of elder women!” so then they can perhaps say homilies at Mass. There will be syncretism of pagan spirituality with Mass. Then when these things take hold in the Amazon, the Germans will claim that now, by “synodality,” these practices can now apply to the universal Church.

 

[CRV]

Well, I think it will need to be hundreds of letters per parish to have a massive effect.

And in all parishes in any one diocese you are certain that hundreds will put pen to paper and write their Bishops?

I don’t have that same confidence. Why? Because there are people who hope and pray that these changes are implemented, as they see they Church too strict, too judgemental, and not inclusive, not meeting the people where they’re at etc. Secondly, even those who are concerned and see possible accommodations/changes being made, not everyone will put there concerns to paper for a lot of various reasons - apathy, wish to remain anonymous, prefer to remain in the background, don’t like to cause a fuss, time poor etc etc.

orthodox bishops need to know that the Catholics in the pews each weak will support orthodox teachings

All well and good.

the heretical bishops need to know they will face difficulties if they support heresy or rejection of traditional teachings

And unless we know who voted what for each question/concern/point in the document being discussed - how are the people in the pews going to know which side of the fence each Bishop voted on each point?

My other concern, is similar to what occurred during the Synod on the Family and the various reports online of which one can google, if so inclined.

Plus, those in favor of those purported changes - ie the Bishops - do you really think letters from the laity are going to have any impact, have such a great influence that it’ll change their point of view on these matters? Not if they are in the majority and have the Popes support, it isn’t.

The matters will be discussed and voted on, and depending on what is put forth and how it is worded will determine the choice each Bishop makes when voting. It’ll be discussed between all the Bishops present both formally and informally I’m sure, and some will be convinced by the arguments put forth that these changes are the best way to move forward and solve a number of issues in a particular area. And well that may be. But once in one area, then there’ll be pressure to adopt these changes in other areas. One only has to look back at our history to see this is what happens. An indult will be granted to one place under certain restrictions and next thing is it spreads and no longer is an indult applied for because it is now the norm.

 

[jack63]

Actually the document from Cardinal Burke and Bishop Schneider is a fairly easy read.

I believe Cardinal Burke and Bishop Schneider mean well, but for much of this (points 1-5) they seem to be making mountains out of molehills. However, I agree with them on point 6. Christianity means you make individual choices that may separate you and detach from your family and community. Jesus was very clear about that.

Just my thoughts…

https://www.ncregister.com/images/uploads/BurkeSchneider.pdf

 

[graciew]

In any case, indigenous people will be treated as persons,with respect, because they are.
Amazonia is not only indigenous people in the sense of need of evengelization, it is vast. There are cities as well with their own issues.
Whatever pastoral solution will be in line with our beliefs, and I personally fear not .
When a group ,if there is, is determined to have its way,despite Rome, it will find the way anyway…sooner or later .

 

[phil19034]

phil19034:

Well, I think it will need to be hundreds of letters per parish to have a massive effect.

And in all parishes in any one diocese you are certain that hundreds will put pen to paper and write their Bishops?

I don’t have that same confidence. Why? Because there are people who hope and pray that these changes are implemented, as they see they Church too strict, too judgemental, and not inclusive, not meeting the people where they’re at etc. Secondly, even those who are concerned and see possible accommodations/changes being made, not everyone will put there concerns to paper for a lot of various reasons - apathy, wish to remain anonymous, prefer to remain in the background, don’t like to cause a fuss, time poor etc etc.

orthodox bishops need to know that the Catholics in the pews each weak will support orthodox teachings

All well and good.

the heretical bishops need to know they will face difficulties if they support heresy or rejection of traditional teachings

And unless we know who voted what for each question/concern/point in the document being discussed - how are the people in the pews going to know which side of the fence each Bishop voted on each point?

My other concern, is similar to what occurred during the Synod on the Family and the various reports online of which one can google, if so inclined.

Plus, those in favor of those purported changes - ie the Bishops - do you really think letters from the laity are going to have any impact, have such a great influence that it’ll change their point of view on these matters? Not if they are in the majority and have the Popes support, it isn’t.

The matters will be discussed and voted on, and depending on what is put forth and how it is worded will determine the choice each Bishop makes when voting. It’ll be discussed between all the Bishops present both formally and informally I’m sure, and some will be convinced by the arguments put forth that these changes are the best way to move forward and solve a number of issues in a particular area. And well that may be. But once in one area, then there’ll be pressure to adopt these changes in other areas. One only has to look back at our history to see this is what happens. An indult will be granted to one place under certain restrictions and next thing is it spreads and no longer is an indult applied for because it is now the norm.

Look, I was just answering what we can do beside just pray. I didn’t really say whether or not it would work… but it COULD if lots of us demand orthodoxy.

I just find it funny that the people who are always against orthodoxy and tradition seem to be far more organized and strategic, while people who are pro orthodoxy and tradition tend to be reactionary.

Same thing happens in politics. Liberals and progressives tend to think many steps/years ahead while conservatives tend to be reactionary only.

 

[CRV]

indigenous people will be treated as persons,with respect,

As all people should be.

I just wonder what all the deceased missonaries are thinking regarding the risks and sacrificies they made including their lives to bring indigenous people the Gospel of Christ. It wasn’t changed or watered down what they preached. Yet, many many indigenous people converted. So it isn’t impossible. But as it was in Jesus’s time, there will always be town who refuse to hear, which the advice was to shake off the dust from beneath ones sandals … (paraphrasing here).

 

[ConcernedConvert]

It may not, but it is something. You can also write letters to the bishops and cardinals who have already openly opposed the synod and support them in their efforts.

 

[ConcernedConvert]

Why is this flagged??

 

[CRV]

Look, I was just answering what we can do beside just pray.

ok.

I didn’t really say whether or not it would work

ok.

but it COULD if lots of us demand orthodoxy.

Possibly. I just don’t see it happening for the reasons I gave.

people who are pro orthodoxy and tradition tend to be reactionary.

Possibly. But then again, in general, there seems to be less confidence in the effectiveness of prayer. Storming heaven with our prayers is very effective - look at Lepanto for just one example.

I trust in God’s Providence for humankind. Trials and tribulations are permitted for His reasons, our part is to trust and do what we can and then leave the rest in His Hands.

 

[phil19034]

Do you realize what you are saying?
Do you think the USSBC will accept letters of complaint about a Synod which hasn t even started and iit is their brothers, their equals, bishops from other countries who preside it?
I hold your Bishops in higher esteem it seems…

I didn’t say complain. I was referring to letters of support for orthodoxy and concern.

Also, I think if the Germans can interject their views, why can’t the Americans? Besides, I’m sure there will be at least one American Cardinal with at least influence.

Point is, I was answering what we COULD do besides just pray. I didn’t say whether it would work or not.

But I do think it’s possible that we might one day wind up in a situation similar to the Arian heresy, when the laity stood up to heretical bishops and priests and maintained the faith.

I pray it doesn’t happen, but I think we should be prepared if it does.

God Bless

 

[ConcernedConvert]

There seems to be very few open and courageous orthodox priests, bishops and cardinals at this time. The few we have need our support to maintain the faith traditions we hold.

 

[CarmeliteKnight]

My guess, it was a bit critical of the German Bishops and Cardinals and therefore a big No-No on CAF.