Is this bad ecumenism?

[Crown_of_Thorns]

Having recently read True Devotion to the Blessed Virgin, an excellent book by St. Louis Marie de Montfort, and have experienced a deepening and renewal of my devotion to Our Blessed Lady. Since that time, a number of interesting things have happened in my life. One of which is that a friend who I haven’t been in touch with for a long time phoned me.

This friend lives alone, and seems often to be rather depressed and unhappy, and we have been talking almost everyday over skype, since his initial contact with me, about a month ago. I think my being in touch with him has been a real help to him, and it almost seems that Our Lady has sent me to help him in this way. We now pray together quite regularly also.

However, he is protestant pentecostal. Part of me thinks that this religious perspective isn’t helping him, because he is always describing these pictures which he says he has had, and then he seems to obsess about them, which I think is adding to his neurosis. That said, I have been involved with the Charismatic renewal of the Catholic Church, and so I am familiar with this kind of spirituality, and indeed have often been helped by people’s encouraging prophetic words over me.

Increasingly though, he has been describing his pictures to me, and asking what I think about them. I have encouraged him not to worry about them, and to maybe write them down if it is helpful, but not to get anxious about interpreting them. In addition, to ease his mind, I have agreed to pray about them myself, and sometimes, after praying about them, I have had thoughts which may encourage him, which I have shared with him, and have perhaps helped in his faith life.

The problem of conscience I have begun to have, is that in perhaps helping him to discern God’s will in his life, and develop his prayer life, it seems to me that I am not really helping him discern the call to become Catholic, which is surely God’s general call to everyone. I am maybe offering him a witness as a Catholic, but is it right to tell him that I feel God wants him to be at peace, or that he should seek support from people around him in his own Church where possible (we live a long way apart so meeting often is not possible), without making more explicit his call to come home to the Catholic Church. Is encouraging him to be the best protestant Christian he can be enough?

Incidentally, although he recognises and respects my faith, he has shown no interest in knowing more. When I offered to show him the rosary (which I found to be of great help to me, when I was suffering a time of loneliness and depression) he closed up immediately, and didn’t want to know any more.

I would be grateful for any thoughts/advice.

 

[nhylan]

Wow, respecting another persons faith! what a novel idea! Ecumenism isn’t about everyone converting to Roman Catholicism, its about becoming one church, opening channels of communication and brotherhood. If you truly are interested in Ecumenical pursuits, patients, humbleness and an open ear are required not a our way is the only way mentality. That’s just banging your head against the wall.

 

[CMatt25]

Everyone need not be Catholic to be with God. Your friend has shown no nterest in your faith. I think it’s great to encourage him in his. You already share a unity with him in the ONE most important… Christ. And He is far more important than any differences the two of you might have. Peace be with you and God bless both you and your friend.

 

[Shin]

One day the saintly Curé d’Ars was visited by a Protestant gentleman. The good priest, thinking he was a Catholic, began to speak to him about Our Lord and the Saints, as he was accustomed to do with all who came to see him.

As the man rose to leave, the Saint gave him a medal as a small remembrance of his visit.

The gentleman said to him: “Dear sir, you have given a medal to one who is a heretic – at least, I am a heretic from your point of view. But although we are not of the same religion, I hope we shall both be in Heaven one day.”

St. John Vianney took the man’s hand in his own and, giving him a penetrating look, answered: “Alas, my friend. We cannot be together in Heaven unless we have begun to live so in this world. Death makes no change in that. As the tree falls, so shall it lie.”

“But, my good Father,” replied the other, “I put my trust in Jesus Christ, Who said, ‘He that believes in Me shall have eternal life.’”

The priest answered: “Jesus Christ said many more things than that. He also said, ‘He that does not hear the Church, let him be to thee as a heathen and a publican.’ And he also said, ‘There shall be one fold and one shepherd,’ and He made St. Peter the chief shepherd of His flock.”

Then he added, “My dear friend, there are not two ways of serving Jesus Christ. There is only one good way, and that is to serve Him as He Himself desires to be served.”

Saying this, the priest left the man. But these words sank deeply into the Protestant’s heart, and led him to renounce the errors in which he had been brought up, and he became a fervent Catholic.

Canon Howe, The Catechist,
South Bend, Indiana: Marian Publications, 1976, pp. 340-341

‘The Apostle commands us to rejoice, but in the Lord, not in the world. For, you see, as Scripture says, whoever wishes to be a friend of this world will be counted as God’s enemy. Just as a man cannot serve two masters, so too no-one can rejoice both in the world and in the Lord.’

St. Augustine

True friends tell people what they need to hear, not what they want to hear, nor what is easier to tell. They speak carefully, but simply about what has to be.

There are great problems in the Charismatic movement that is even within the Church. These people often do not know what they are doing and open themselves up to diabolical influences.

 

[nhylan]

This may have moved me if it wasn’t for the fact that the Roman Catholic Church is in communion with Orthodox churches which have a decidedly different way of serving Jesus. It may have also moved me if the Catholic Church didn’t also admit that salvation may be had through Protestant Faiths.

Things change don’t they?

One day the saintly Curé d’Ars was visited by a Protestant gentleman. The good priest, thinking he was a Catholic, began to speak to him about Our Lord and the Saints, as he was accustomed to do with all who came to see him.

As the man rose to leave, the Saint gave him a medal as a small remembrance of his visit.

The gentleman said to him: “Dear sir, you have given a medal to one who is a heretic – at least, I am a heretic from your point of view. But although we are not of the same religion, I hope we shall both be in Heaven one day.”

St. John Vianney took the man’s hand in his own and, giving him a penetrating look, answered: “Alas, my friend. We cannot be together in Heaven unless we have begun to live so in this world. Death makes no change in that. As the tree falls, so shall it lie.”

“But, my good Father,” replied the other, “I put my trust in Jesus Christ, Who said, ‘He that believes in Me shall have eternal life.’”

The priest answered: “Jesus Christ said many more things than that. He also said, ‘He that does not hear the Church, let him be to thee as a heathen and a publican.’ And he also said, ‘There shall be one fold and one shepherd,’ and He made St. Peter the chief shepherd of His flock.”

Then he added, “My dear friend, there are not two ways of serving Jesus Christ. There is only one good way, and that is to serve Him as He Himself desires to be served.”

Saying this, the priest left the man. But these words sank deeply into the Protestant’s heart, and led him to renounce the errors in which he had been brought up, and he became a fervent Catholic.

Canon Howe, The Catechist,
South Bend, Indiana: Marian Publications, 1976, pp. 340-341

 

[CMatt25]

St. John Vianney didn’t know the Church teaches non-Catholics can be saved?

 

[Marsha_Adams]

Crown of Thorns:

God meets man where he is and then God leads man to where God wants him to be. Love your friend, pray for your friend and with your friend and then place your friend in God’s hands.

 

[CMatt25]

It may have also moved me if the Catholic Church didn’t also admit that salvation may be had through Protestant Faiths.

Things change don’t they?

nhylan, we must have been posting about the same time

 

[CMatt25]

Crown of Thorns:

God meets man where he is and then God leads man to where God wants him to be. Love your friend, pray for your friend and with your friend and then place your friend in God’s hands.

nicely put

 

[KathleenGee]

I think Vatican II is also referring to a person’s intent or not understanding.

I see fundamentalists all the time not grasping Catholic thought…and they are not willful. They have very hard impediments that block understanding.

Vatican II teaches that the Catholic Church has the fullness of truth for salvation. But the Lord is the only one who can judge.

 

[Shin]

This may have moved me if it wasn’t for the fact that the Roman Catholic Church is in communion with Orthodox churches which have a decidedly different way of serving Jesus. It may have also moved me if the Catholic Church didn’t also admit that salvation may be had through Protestant Faiths.

Things change don’t they?

‘I had the greatest sorrow for the many souls that condemn themselves to Hell, especially those Lutherans. . . I saw souls falling into Hell like snowflakes.’

St. Teresa of Jesus

Things never change. People only make the same mistakes they always do, high and low. The moral teachings of the Church never change. Discipline is sometimes what it should be, sometimes it collapses due to lax leadership, but the moral law never changes.

Extra ecclesiam nulla salus.

What are you doing when you tell people to be ‘good Protestants’ instead of ‘Catholics’ - the grace of God is always guiding people to the Faith, not out of it. It is a cop out to tell people this, a cop out of your duty. People go to Hell because of this cop out. Martyrs of Christ died as witnesses to deny this cop out exists.

The few are saved. Few Catholics. Outside? Extra ecclesiam nulla salus. Ignorance is not salvific, it is considered a vice not a virtue.

Telling people what they want to hear instead of what they need to hear… sometimes leaders do that… when they fail in their leadership. Sometimes friends do that… when they are not being true friends.

‘The rule of piety admits nothing new. All things are to be delivered to those who come after us with the same fidelity with which they were received by us. It is our duty to follow religion, not make religion follow us.’

‘This custom has always prevailed in the Church: that, the more religious a man was, the more promptly did he withstand novel inventions.’

St. Vincent of Lerins

‘All infidels and heretics are surely on the way to being lost. What an obligation we owe God! for causing us to be born not only after the coming of Jesus Christ, but also in countries where the true faith reigns!’

St. Alphonsus Maria de Liguori

Meditate on the horrors of Hell which will last for eternity because of one easily-committed mortal sin. Try hard to be among the few who are chosen. Think of the eternal flames of Hell, and how few there are that are saved.

St. Benedict Joseph Labre

‘The majority of men shall not see God, excepting those who live justly, purified by righteousness and by every other virtue.’

St. Justin the Martyr

 

[CMatt25]

Did any of the saints say “Do not judge”?

 

[nhylan]

You can quote all the saints on the planet that said that only Catholics go to heaven, doesn’t mean its what Catholics believe…

“…many elements of sanctification and of truth” are found outside the visible confines of the Catholic Church: “the written Word of God; the life of grace; faith, hope, and charity, with the other interior gifts of the Holy Spirit, as well as visible elements.” Christ’s Spirit uses these Churches and ecclesial communities as means of salvation, whose power derives from the fullness of grace and truth that Christ has entrusted to the Catholic Church. All these blessings come from Christ and lead to him, and are in themselves calls to “Catholic unity.” (CCC 819)

I would suggest your on the fringe here with your assumptions. Sometimes leaders do fail… but sometimes they get it right and people choose to ignore them.

‘I had the greatest sorrow for the many souls that condemn themselves to Hell, especially those Lutherans. . . I saw souls falling into Hell like snowflakes.’

St. Teresa of Jesus

Things never change. People only make the same mistakes they always do, high and low. The moral teachings of the Church never change. Discipline is sometimes what it should be, sometimes it collapses due to lax leadership, but the moral law never changes.

Extra ecclesiam nulla salus.

What are you doing when you tell people to be ‘good Protestants’ instead of ‘Catholics’ - the grace of God is always guiding people to the Faith, not out of it. It is a cop out to tell people this, a cop out of your duty. People go to Hell because of this cop out. Martyrs of Christ died as witnesses to deny this cop out exists.

The few are saved. Few Catholics. Outside? Extra ecclesiam nulla salus. Ignorance is not salvific, it is considered a vice not a virtue.

Telling people what they want to hear instead of what they need to hear… sometimes leaders do that… when they fail in their leadership. Sometimes friends do that… when they are not being true friends.

‘The rule of piety admits nothing new. All things are to be delivered to those who come after us with the same fidelity with which they were received by us. It is our duty to follow religion, not make religion follow us.’

‘This custom has always prevailed in the Church: that, the more religious a man was, the more promptly did he withstand novel inventions.’

St. Vincent of Lerins

‘All infidels and heretics are surely on the way to being lost. What an obligation we owe God! for causing us to be born not only after the coming of Jesus Christ, but also in countries where the true faith reigns!’

St. Alphonsus Maria de Liguori

Meditate on the horrors of Hell which will last for eternity because of one easily-committed mortal sin. Try hard to be among the few who are chosen. Think of the eternal flames of Hell, and how few there are that are saved.

St. Benedict Joseph Labre

‘The majority of men shall not see God, excepting those who live justly, purified by righteousness and by every other virtue.’

St. Justin the Martyr

 

[DV56]

Did any of the saints say “Do not judge”?

There has always been a difference in what Church Doctors and the Saints seem to say. Some say that few go to heaven, and some say that many go to heaven. The Church has yet to say anything about these quotes because they are private revelation. God always has his hands extended out to us. He doesn’t turn us away. True, that he expects us to do the best we possibly can, but as Scripture says, all fall short of perfection. Except of course Jesus and Mary. No matter how often we sin, God always takes back those that repent. If most people go to hell, then Jesus went through a miserable passion for such as select few. That is not Catholic teaching.

 

[CMatt25]

If most people go to hell, then Jesus went through a miserable passion for such as select few. That is not Catholic teaching.

excellent point :tiphat:

 

[Hiskid1973]

We are to encourage one another…We all have up and down times in our faith irregardless of our faith camp…Christ is our common hope…When I see groups bickering, I think of John complaining to Jesus about another group…Jesus didn’t say they must be converted to our group, but not to worry if they not against us, they are for us…Wait till we see hard times here and we’ll see pettiness drop and see us ministering together…At the last place I lived. one Catholic neighbor said to me “I know you love Jesus”…I’ve prayed together with another Catholic neighbor with another hurting neighbor right in the middle of the street…My other Catholic neighbor who was like one of my best buds there…We worked together helping an unbelieving sick neighbor mowing his lawn for Him…We just live Jesus together in our neighborhood and don’t sweat the small stuff…We moved but he is mowing our lawn till the mobile home sells…Won’t take a penny from me…This is the stuff that comes into account when our works are burned for rewards or lack of them…

 

[DV56]

We are to encourage one another…We all have up and down times in our faith irregardless of our faith camp…Christ is our common hope…When I see groups bickering, I think of John complaining to Jesus about another group…Jesus didn’t say they must be converted to our group, but not to worry if they not against us, they are for us…Wait till we see hard times here and we’ll see pettiness drop and see us ministering together…At the last place I lived. one Catholic neighbor said to me “I know you love Jesus”…I’ve prayed together with another Catholic neighbor with another hurting neighbor right in the middle of the street…My other Catholic neighbor who was like one of my best buds there…We worked together helping an unbelieving sick neighbor mowing his lawn for Him…We just live Jesus together in our neighborhood and don’t sweat the small stuff…We moved but he is mowing our lawn till the mobile home sells…Won’t take a penny from me…This is the stuff that comes into account when our works are burned for rewards or lack of them…

All I can say is:

:yup: :tiphat:

 

[Shin]

There has always been a difference in what Church Doctors and the Saints seem to say. Some say that few go to heaven, and some say that many go to heaven. If most people go to hell, then Jesus went through a miserable passion for such as select few. That is not Catholic teaching.

Some say that many? Let’s see the source citations. Here are some of the ones I have. Note the Doctors and Fathers. What I have does not agree with what you say. Scripture does not agree with what you say about the many and the few.

After so many, if you actually have one oddball quote, it makes little difference. Cite a significant number to form a legitimate weight of opinion or give up the position. I have about one hundred quotations of the saints on the subject so far that do not agree. I am still studying however, perhaps I am looking in the wrong places, go ahead cite… or retract for lack of evidence.

'Enter ye in at the narrow gate: for wide is the gate, and broad is the way that leadeth to destruction,* and many there are who go in thereat. *How narrow is the gate, and strait is the way that leadeth to life: and few there are that find it!’

Matthew 7:13-14

Out of one hundred thousand sinners who continue in sin until death, scarcely one will be saved.’

St. Jerome, Priest, Doctor, Father of the Church

'It is as though Jesus said: “O My Father, I am indeed going to clothe myself with human flesh, but the greater part of the world will set no value on my blood!”

St. Isidore of Seville, Archbishop, Doctor, Father of the Church

‘How many among these uncivilized peoples do not yet know God, and are sunk in the darkest idolatry, superstition and ignorance! . . . Poor souls! These are they in whom Christ saw, in all the horror of His imminent Passion, the uselessness of His agony for so many souls!’

St. Francesca Saverio Cabrini, Mother of the Missionary Sisters of the Sacred Heart of Jesus

‘O Jesus! . . . Remember the sadness that Thou didst experience when, contemplating in the light of Thy divinity the predestination of those who would be saved by the merits of Thy sacred passion, thou didst see at the same time the great multitude of reprobates who would be damned for their sins, and Thou didst complain bitterly of those hopeless, lost, and unfortunate sinners.’

St. Bridget of Sweden, Abbess

'What do you think? How many of the inhabitants of this city may perhaps be saved? What I am about to tell you is very terrible, yet I will not conceal it from you. Out of this thickly populated city with its thousands of inhabitants not one hundred people will be saved. I even doubt whether there will be as many as that!

. . . I do not speak rashly, but as I feel and think. I do not think that many bishops are saved, but that those who perish are far more numerous.’

St. John Chrysostom, Archbishop, Doctor, Father of the Church

‘Behold how many there are who are called, and how few who are chosen! And behold, if you have no care for yourself, your perdition is more certain than your amendment, especially since the way that leads to eternal life is so narrow.’

St. John of the Cross, Priest, Friar, Doctor of the Church

‘Those who are saved are in the minority.’

St. Thomas Aquinas, Doctor of the Church

Christ’s flock is called “little” (Luke 12:32) in comparison with the greater number of the reprobates.

St. Bede the Venerable, Priest, Monk, Doctor, Father of the Church

“The number of the elect is so small - so small - that were we to know how small it is, we should faint away with grief. The number of the elect is so small that were God to assemble them together, He would cry to them, as He did of old, by the mouth of His prophet, ‘Gather yourselves together, one by one’ - one from this province, one from that kingdom.”

St. Louis Marie de Montfort

‘So many people are going to die, and almost all of them are going to Hell! So many people falling into hell!’

Bl. Jacinta of Fatima

The perverse are hard to be corrected, and the number of fools is infinite.

Ecclesiastes 1:15

"There are many who arrive at the faith, but few that are lead into the heavenly kingdom.

Pope St. Gregory the Great

‘Not all, nor even a majority, are saved. . . They are indeed many, if regarded by themselves, but they are few in comparison with the far larger number of those who shall be punished with the devil.’

St. Augustine, Bishop, Doctor and Father of the Church

Remember that it is not the multitude who are being saved, but the elect of God. Be not then affrighted at the great multitude of the people who are carried hither and thither by winds like the waters of the sea. If but one be saved, like Lot at Sodom, he ought to abide in right judgment, keeping his hope in Christ unshaken, for the Lord will not forsake His holy ones. Salute all the brethren in Christ from me. Pray earnestly for my miserable soul.’

St. Basil the Great, Bishop, Doctor and Father of the Church

‘With the exception of those who die in childhood, most men will be damned.’

‘Among adults there are few saved because of sins of the flesh.’

St. Regimius of Rheims

Notwithstanding assurances that God did not create any man for Hell, and that He wishes all men to be saved, it remains equally true that only few will be saved; that only few will go to Heaven; and that the greater part of mankind will be lost forever.

St. John Neumann, Bishop

For many are called, *but few chosen. *

Mark 20:16

Lord, are they few that are saved? But he said to them: Strive to enter by the narrow gate; for many, I say to you, shall seek to enter, and shall not be able.

Luke 13:23-24

If you want to tell people to not enter the Church, but to do whatever they’re doing where they are at they will be fine, you will reap your reward in the next life.

 

[Shin]

We are to encourage one another…We all have up and down times in our faith irregardless of our faith camp…Christ is our common hope…When I see groups bickering, I think of John complaining to Jesus about another group…Jesus didn’t say they must be converted to our group, but not to worry if they not against us, they are for us…Wait till we see hard times here and we’ll see pettiness drop and see us ministering together…At the last place I lived. one Catholic neighbor said to me “I know you love Jesus”…I’ve prayed together with another Catholic neighbor with another hurting neighbor right in the middle of the street…My other Catholic neighbor who was like one of my best buds there…We worked together helping an unbelieving sick neighbor mowing his lawn for Him…We just live Jesus together in our neighborhood and don’t sweat the small stuff…We moved but he is mowing our lawn till the mobile home sells…Won’t take a penny from me…This is the stuff that comes into account when our works are burned for rewards or lack of them…

I agree that we should encourage one another! But we should encourage one another in what is truly good, not join together in iniquity.

Pessimum genus inimicorum laudantes.

 

[nhylan]

Shin, im waiting to hear your defense in the face of your own church’s catechism which says otherwise.