Is this heretical?

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Peter_J

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Is it heretical to say “The Pope is infallible whenever he teaches on a matter of faith or morals” ?

Protestants are welcome to respond, if they wish, but I’m more interested in what my fellow Catholics have to say about it. (I’m sure the vast majority of Protestants – and Orthodox for that matter – would say “Yes it’s heretical.”)
 
Peter_J said:
Is it heretical to say “The Pope is infallible whenever he teaches on a matter of faith or morals” ?

Protestants are welcome to respond, if they wish, but I’m more interested in what my fellow Catholics have to say about it. (I’m sure the vast majority of Protestants – and Orthodox for that matter – would say “Yes it’s heretical.”)
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No, not heretical. From our perspective it would be seen as heterodox.
 
But from the Catholic viewpoint it is “neither”…as one does not apply, and wait…neither does the other… 😛 😃

Hey… TU… What is a “pirates” favorite letter?

ARRRRRRRRRRR! 😃
 
Peter_J said:
Is it heretical to say “The Pope is infallible whenever he teaches on a matter of faith or morals” ?

Protestants are welcome to respond, if they wish, but I’m more interested in what my fellow Catholics have to say about it. (I’m sure the vast majority of Protestants – and Orthodox for that matter – would say “Yes it’s heretical.”)
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Why would it be? Is it heretical to say that the Bible is infallible though written by man (including books written by Peter?). Just as the Holy Spirit was able to enter into man to create the infallible word, so it should be possible for the Holy Spirit to prevent the vicor of Christ (successor of Peter) from making errors in official pronouncements of faith and morals. If this was not so, how could Jesus’ promise that the Church would stand until the end times be true?

Blessings

Brian
 
Peter_J said:
“The Pope is infallible …”
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Whether he is infallible or not or should be or should not…Pope is basically elected by who? Elected/choosen by God or a specific group of people? If so, who are those people? are they infallible too in chosing their “infallible” Pope? or they are not infallible? if so, how can these people who are not infallible can choose an infallible man to guide them and others? What made them to believe such and such person choosen by themselves is ready to become an infallible? or was he from his birth an infallible man but not known until his selection? Is there any possiblity of becoming a woman an infallible Pope? if not, why not?
 
Robbinson said:
Just as the Holy Spirit was able to enter into man to create the infallible word, so it should be possible for the Holy Spirit to prevent the vicor of Christ (successor of Peter) from making errors in official pronouncements of faith and morals.
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I agree, but that isn’t what I’m asking. Rather, I’m asking whether it’s heretical to say “The Pope is infallible whenever he teaches on a matter of faith or morals.”
 
Peter_J said:
I agree, but that isn’t what I’m asking. Rather, I’m asking whether it’s heretical to say “The Pope is infallible whenever he teaches on a matter of faith or morals.”
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**You should ask this question to the Pope directly. 'Sir are you infallible whenever you teach Catholics on matters of faith or morals ?"

The reason because if he is indeed infallible, then only he would be able to give you an “infallible” answer, as the rest of Catholic world is not infallible thus you cannot trust answers which are not infallible (free from error/mistake). no?

One thing in the question needed a clarification though. That is, why faith and morals are mentioned seperately? Isn’t morality due to faith? If so, then you should only ask the Pope: 'Are you infallible whenever you teach on a matter of faith?" If not, then do you think morality can exist without faith, independently? If so, then what kind of morality that would be which is free from your faith. from where you wll import it? How youwill define it? **
 
At least TU knows the difference between Infaillable and impeccable.
too many don’t know the difference.

Anyway- I think personally that its important to understand that if one believes anything said by a pope to be binding on the faithful in matters of faith or morals to be heretical, they must make their case as to why.

That’s all folks!
 
rationally said:
Whether he is infallible or not or should be or should not…Pope is basically elected by who? Elected/choosen by God through a specific group of people If so, who are those people? Currently Cardinals under 80 yrs, but the current Pope could change this, really are they infallible too in chosing their “infallible” Pope? or they are not infallible? Irrelevant because… if so, how can these people who are not infallible can choose an infallible man to guide them and others? …they don’t choose an infallible man; the man becomes infallible after election What made them to believe such and such person choosen by themselves is ready to become an infallible? Nobody is really “ready”, but by divine help, he will survive. Look at all the terribly corrupt Popes! None of them taught anything against the faith. or was he from his birth an infallible man but not known until his selection? Is there any possiblity of becoming a woman an infallible Pope? if not, why not? The Pope is a bishop, a woman can’t be a bishop
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Peter_J said:
Is it heretical to say “The Pope is infallible whenever he teaches on a matter of faith or morals” ?
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I wouldn’t call it heretical. I would call it inacurrate.

The Pope is not infallible *whenever *he teaches on faith and morals. Rather:

the Roman Pontiff, when he speaks ex cathedra – that is, **when in the exercise of his office as pastor and teacher of all Christians he **defines, by virtue of his supreme Apostolic authority, **a doctrine of faith or morals to be held by the whole Church **-- is, by reason of the Divine assistance promised to him in blessed Peter, possessed of that infallibility with which the Divine Redeemer wished His Church to be endowed in defining doctrines of faith and morals; and consequently that such definitions of the Roman Pontiff are irreformable of their own nature (ex sese) and not by reason of the Church’s consent
 
Robbinson said:
Why would it be? Is it heretical to say that the Bible is infallible though written by man (including books written by Peter?).
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The Catholic Church does not teach that the Bible is infallible.

The Church teaches that the Bible is inerrant.

There is a difference.
 
rationally said:
The reason because if he is indeed infallible, then only he would be able to give you an “infallible” answer, as the rest of Catholic world is not infallible thus you cannot trust answers which are not infallible (free from error/mistake). no?
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No.

The Bishops of the Church teaching in Council also enjoy the charism of infallibility.
 
rationally said:
Whether he is infallible or not or should be or should not…Pope is basically elected by who? Elected/choosen by God or a specific group of people? If so, who are those people? are they infallible too in chosing their “infallible” Pope? or they are not infallible? if so, how can these people who are not infallible can choose an infallible man to guide them and others? What made them to believe such and such person choosen by themselves is ready to become an infallible? or was he from his birth an infallible man but not known until his selection? Is there any possiblity of becoming a woman an infallible Pope? if not, why not?
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It seems you don’t understand what infallibility is. It is a charism of the Office of the Pope.

That answers all your questions: it doesn’t matter who elects the pope, it’s not a charism the person enjoys apart from the Office, and a woman cannot receive Holy Orders and therefore cannot be the Pope.
 
1ke said:
I would call it inacurrate.

The Pope is not infallible *whenever *he teaches on faith and morals. Rather:

the Roman Pontiff, when he speaks ex cathedra – that is, **when in the exercise of his office as pastor and teacher of all Christians he **defines, by virtue of his supreme Apostolic authority, **a doctrine of faith or morals to be held by the whole Church **-- is, by reason of the Divine assistance promised to him in blessed Peter, possessed of that infallibility with which the Divine Redeemer wished His Church to be endowed in defining doctrines of faith and morals; and consequently that such definitions of the Roman Pontiff are irreformable of their own nature (ex sese) and not by reason of the Church’s consent
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I agree with all of that, 100%. (For the sake of completeness, we could also quote Vatican II, which said that the Pope exercises infallibility whenever he “proclaims by a definitive act some doctrine of faith or morals”. I think it’s quite plain to see that neither Vatican I nor Vatican II taught that the Pope is infallible whenever he teaches on faith or morals.)
1ke said:
I wouldn’t call it heretical.
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I quote this statement separate from the rest of your post, because I can only say that I’m 90% to 95% certain of my agreement with it. But perhaps I should be asking a slightly different question: Would you say that the Church could condemn the statement “The Pope is infallible when he teaches on faith or morals” as heretical?
 
1ke said:
The Catholic Church does not teach that the Bible is infallible.

The Church teaches that the Bible is inerrant.

There is a difference.
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Point taken - the Bible is inerrant and the Pope’s proclamations on faith and morals (when taking an official position) are infallible.
 
Peter_J said:
I agree, but that isn’t what I’m asking. Rather, I’m asking whether it’s heretical to say “The Pope is infallible whenever he teaches on a matter of faith or morals.”
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Another way of looking at this issue is to ask whether it is possible for a Pope to be a heretic. This was an oft debated question in the middle ages.
 
jfoges said:
Another way of looking at this issue is to ask whether it is possible for a Pope to be a heretic. This was an oft debated question in the middle ages.
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I had no idea how loud the sound of a pin dropping could be.
 
notsmart said:
I had no idea how loud the sound of a pin dropping could be.
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Yes - that is possible. There have been some unfortunate popes - but the Holy Spirit has prevented them from erring in official pronouncements on faith and morals. A pope is human, like the rest of us, and outside of this limited capacity of infallibility in pronouncing official doctrine in faith and morals, is as capable as anyone else in erring, sinning and making other mistakes in their personal capacity.

Blessings,

Brian
 
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