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BListon
Guest
Perhaps you are right, you probably are, as I am a fairly new Catholic. I still wonder why it hasn’t been infallibly proclaimed by the Church yet if it is a mortal sin.
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BListon
Guest
Perhaps you are right, you probably are, as I am a fairly new Catholic. I still wonder why it hasn’t been infallibly proclaimed by the Church yet if it is a mortal sin.
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Wiseowl
Guest
Good debate and points by all, perhaps on this issue the answer is not within Catholicism but in our hearts with common sense.
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Kirk_O
Guest
You’ve already answered your own question by asking it here. If it was right, then you wouldn’t be questioning it.
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PaulinVA
Guest
Following Church teaching is easy when it’s, well, easy. When It is hard to follow Church teaching, we are not given the option of not doing it. Simple as that.
The body of Church teaching is to keep us pointed in the right direction as we work out our salvation. When we pick and choose, or engage in legalism about whether this teaching or that teaching *REALLY *has to be followed, we risk losing our way and ending up somewhere we don’t want to be.
Either you are all in, or you are not in at all.
The body of Church teaching is to keep us pointed in the right direction as we work out our salvation. When we pick and choose, or engage in legalism about whether this teaching or that teaching *REALLY *has to be followed, we risk losing our way and ending up somewhere we don’t want to be.
Either you are all in, or you are not in at all.
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1ke
Guest
What leads you to believe this?
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april32010
Guest
what are you talking about ?
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VeritasLuxMea
Guest
While all of this is true and everything, and I really don’t take issue with any of the words you’ve used here, I do think maybe there is a different approach we can take.
Like, I have a friend that struggles with addiction. Although “suck it up” is theoretically good advice to give him, perhaps it is not the best way to phrase it.
And while it is also true that this is a “small problem” in the “grand scheme of things” as others have pointed out, I tend to think that approach is not really helpful either. 99.9% of problems are “small” in comparison to, say, an Ethiopian that doesn’t know where his next meal is coming from. But we ought not go around belittling every problem other than starvation.
This is a very real cross to bear, and God bless the husband for being willing to carry it, despite all the temptations that might exist. And God bless the wife/poster, for carrying the cross of pregnancy and also for recognizing her husband’s sacrifices with gratitude.
Does anyone have any advice that might help them cope through this rough period? With all the stress of pregnancy, the addition of extra roles both for wife and husband, and adding to that the denial of sexual intimacy - that’s a lot of stress to deal with.
So I would like to ask, if the original poster doesn’t mind, whether anyone has any advice for this couple on how to reduce stress and maintain their marital intimacy without sexual contact for a prolonged period of time?
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Corki
Guest
I would say it HAS been stated infallibly. You are confused betweeen those few dogmas that have been formally declared as infallible and dogmatic with those teachings of the ordinary magesterium that are infallible. It is a teaching of the ordinary magesterium that the marital act must be both unitive and ordered to procreation. It doesn’t take an “ex cathedra” prounounement to make that a truth.
The other problem with your statements is that, even if it were only a disciplinary teaching (which it isn’t), it would still be gravely sinful to disobey it. The authority of the Church is not limited to those teachings that are infallible.
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fpt
Guest
What is morally okay to do, between husband and wife, during those periods of continence?
They are and stay spouses. They are not brother and sister: the marital intimacy without sex is possible and totally okay. They need to find their " creative abstinence" . The conjugal physical tenderness without sex, I mean in avoiding the orgasms and without masturbation is morally okay, of course. Per se, there is no moral problem.
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LaFleurDeLis
Guest
I’m sorry if this may seem like a stupid thought and please do correct me if I’m wrong, but wouldn’t it be acceptable for the op to pleasure her husband and instead of climaxing outside, he could simply put the tip of his p*nis into her and then climax? No pelvic thrusting would be involved and very little penetration.
This may not have a high probability of achieving pregnancy (even though it’s not possible due to her already being pregnant.) however the marital act would still be kept sacred wouldn’t it? If a couple who were not pregnant at the time did this, there still would be the possibility of pregnancy given the fact that sperm can travel up the “super highway” of fertile mucus during peak fertility.
Again if I’m wrong, please correct me. This was a thought I had in my mind and was planning on creating a thread, but this seemed like a good place to ask.
Blessings,
LaFleurdelis
This may not have a high probability of achieving pregnancy (even though it’s not possible due to her already being pregnant.) however the marital act would still be kept sacred wouldn’t it? If a couple who were not pregnant at the time did this, there still would be the possibility of pregnancy given the fact that sperm can travel up the “super highway” of fertile mucus during peak fertility.
Again if I’m wrong, please correct me. This was a thought I had in my mind and was planning on creating a thread, but this seemed like a good place to ask.
Blessings,
LaFleurdelis
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fpt
Guest
By the " creative abstinence" of couple, I means the physical tenderness between wife and husband without marital act (without union of bodies, without orgasms, without their complete corollaries, without sexual stimulation,** per se**, like with sexual preliminaries for leading the union of bodies). Physical love without sex, and without the wrong substitutions, or without the immoral replacements. Only, physical tenderness not sexual, but sensual without orgasms.
If you want more information, I can send to you my point of view on the types of acts that are morally are okay according to my humble interpretation and in the respect of natural moral law. I do not want to be too graphic and explicit on the public forum.
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brbgrl
Guest
You are right. No matter what anyone on here says my conscious always gets me! I like to check though, as I’m realitively new to the church.
Hum…interesting. I’m not sure I could handle that though. You see pelvic rest does not decrease your libido. This is just as hard on me as it is him and that might just be a little too tempting. Plus I’m not allowed any vaginal penetration of any kind and even if it’s minimal it could irritate my cervix and cause contractions. Many people with my condition are not even allowed baths.
I wouldn’t mind at all! We have been under so much stress unrealated to this that we hadn’t been as intimate as we would have liked anyway, we were trying to avoid pregnancy because of a seperate difficult situation we are going through (still not quite sure where this baby came from
, but we are happy nonetheless) and now all these pregnancy complications that sometimes it seems like we are just roomates who happen to be raising a child together!
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fpt
Guest
Are you okay for the " creative abstinence" of couple, the physical tenderness between wife and husband without marital act. Only, physical tenderness not sexual, but sensual without orgasms???You are right. No matter what anyone on here says my conscious always gets me! I like to check though, as I’m realitively new to the church.
Hum…interesting. I’m not sure I could handle that though. You see pelvic rest does not decrease your libido. This is just as hard on me as it is him and that might just be a little too tempting. Plus I’m not allowed any vaginal penetration of any kind and even if it’s minimal it could irritate my cervix and cause contractions. Many people with my condition are not even allowed baths.
I wouldn’t mind at all! We have been under so much stress unrealated to this that we hadn’t been as intimate as we would have liked anyway, we were trying to avoid pregnancy because of a seperate difficult situation we are going through (still not quite sure where this baby came from
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AngelEyes4Jesus
Guest
I may be going against the grain here but…I was on pelvic rest for 2 out of the 5 pregnancies we have had. this last one resulted in pelvic rest as well as a premature baby. During the timeof pelvic rest DH and I struggled with this Q as well. We prayed togther and came to the realization that we were not cheasting, we were not banning life, in fact saving it (like you) and that God is just and loveable. I too felt awful as more of the duties shifted to him as I became further and further laid up, and I tell you from experience that those moments of re connecting were so special for us and helped us hold on one more day! lol not literally, we werent considering divorce or anything, but it made the terribly hard seem more tolerable. I agree that if that was the case and this was evil and masterbation etc etc then woman after hystorectmy would no longer be able to enjoy the marital embrace…
and as an aside…when DH and I were first married after about 6 months I had developed a very strange allergy to him. After the marital embrace it was very uncomfortable and painful and in fact I began to despise it. after MEETING WITH OUR FAMILY PRIEST several times, he said that because our intentipn was not to withold life, he could infact climax outside of me during the month that I was not ovulating…but we had to abstain during ovulation (and we knew when i was from BBT and LH surge) we went on to successfully have children after this and through various changes ‘help’ or lessen the allergy. my point is…it is not a one size cookie cutter for all re: rules. Talk to God. pray w your hubby ask Jesus to lead you. Some of our most intimate moments involved my duration of pelvic rest. U learn how much u love and miss something when it is gone. GL!
and as an aside…when DH and I were first married after about 6 months I had developed a very strange allergy to him. After the marital embrace it was very uncomfortable and painful and in fact I began to despise it. after MEETING WITH OUR FAMILY PRIEST several times, he said that because our intentipn was not to withold life, he could infact climax outside of me during the month that I was not ovulating…but we had to abstain during ovulation (and we knew when i was from BBT and LH surge) we went on to successfully have children after this and through various changes ‘help’ or lessen the allergy. my point is…it is not a one size cookie cutter for all re: rules. Talk to God. pray w your hubby ask Jesus to lead you. Some of our most intimate moments involved my duration of pelvic rest. U learn how much u love and miss something when it is gone. GL!
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fpt
Guest
agree that if that was the case and this was evil and masterbation etc etc then woman after hystorectmy would no longer be able to enjoy the marital embrace…???
What do you want to say? What do you want to mean?
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EvelynEVF
Guest
That sounds quite reasonable to me! The OP has to avoid orgasm, but penetration without orgasm and without vigorous thrusting should be both safe and licit.
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mommamaree
Guest
Brbgrl,
I wouldn’t advise this idea either, because the prostaglandins in sperm ripen the cervix and prepare it to dilate. In fact, synthetic prostaglandins are used as cervical ripeners to hasten labor in an overdue pregnant mother, and the old-fashioned, non-medical way to do the same thing is to have intercourse with one’s husband so that his semen can trigger labor. I also agree very strongly with you that it is unfair to you and would be way too easy to get carried away in the moment and do something that would be very dangerous for the pregnancy.
I suggest that leisure time be an opportunity for cuddling and movie-watching or board-game playing. Enjoy each other’s company. Don’t deprive each other of affection, but keep it light and gentle, not arousing. You still will want to be affectionate with each other, and that can help to ease the pain of abstinence. Talk about your frustrations in an open, nonjudgemental way. This way you can commiserate with each other about the difficulties you are enduring together. I am so sorry that you and your husband are facing this difficult time. It must be incredibly difficult.
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AngelEyes4Jesus
Guest
FPT–an earlier post had said that that you can never have intercourse unless open to children so this would make the act wrong. Of course the OP is already pregnant so that in itself wouldnt be a plausible argument that, and the fact that some woman have hystorectomies young…that would mean they could no longer have intercourse either. and post menopausal women as well. I was agreeing with her that this is not merely masterbation because the idea is nott o stop life, it is to save it 
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