Is this really true?

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someperson555

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So I just had an argument with a Catholic. Though I find many religious people hold this view. ( I do not know why)
I have always said and believed that human law has no authority over other humans. Only Gods law is to be obeyed. But the person I got into an argument with said that even civil laws have to be obeyed. I don’t agree with that.
What if it’s a stupid unreasonable law? I’ll give a few examples.
What if a law says I can’t put chocolate syrup on my pancakes ( yes there are actually laws like this)
Or what if the law says I can’t make noise at night, bit I have soundproof walls and live miles away from other people?
What if the USA reinstated the draft and mY number would come up? Would a Catholic be required to throw his life away just because old rich politician feels like going to war?
It states public urination is illegal. So are you sinning whenever you go to the bathroom in the woods? Or even in secluded area in the city?
What do you think?
 
We are to submit to civil authorities insofar as they do not conflict with God’s moral law.
 
Casilda said:
We are to submit to civil authorities insofar as they do not conflict with God’s moral law.
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So then it’s a mortal sin to pass gass during the night? I’m serious. The noise ordinance States that it is illegal to make sounds above 45 decibels at night. Passing gas as well as other activities produce more than 45 decibels. So, by your logic it’s a mortal sin to pass gas at night? By your logic, it is also a mortal sin to jaywalk even when there are no cars on the street.
 
Casilda never said it was a mortal sin to disregard civil laws.

We are to render to God the things that are God’s and to Caesar the things that are Caesar’s. So we pay taxes, obey the traffic laws, etc.
We are also supposed to use the brains God gave us.
Your examples are kind of silly – there’s no law against chocolate syrup on pancakes, and if there were, we should change it.

Here are a couple for you:
In Indiana, To stroll down the street playing a violin is against the law.

In Pennsylvania, Toads may not be licked.

I think we can safely disregard some laws which are just silly (although there’s probably a good reason to avoid licking toads.)
But we should obey the authorities as long as they don’t conflict with God’s law.

.
 
Viki63 said:
Casilda never said it was a mortal sin to disregard civil laws.

We are to render to God the things that are God’s and to Caesar the things that are Caesar’s. So we pay taxes, obey the traffic laws, etc.
We are also supposed to use the brains God gave us.
Your examples are kind of silly – there’s no law against chocolate syrup on pancakes, and if there were, we should change it.

Here are a couple for you:
In Indiana, To stroll down the street playing a violin is against the law.

In Pennsylvania, Toads may not be licked.

I think we can safely disregard some laws which are just silly (although there’s probably a good reason to avoid licking toads.)
But we should obey the authorities as long as they don’t conflict with God’s law.

.
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I know they’re silly. But what’s even more silly us that some people actually think God requires us to obey these laws. God’s law is sufficient. I do not believe that man made laws have any real authority over people. Including traffic laws. Of course endangering people is sinful, but speeding does not always endanger lives. People need to realize that human laws are mostly arbitrary. Im really shocked that some Catholics claim we need to follow man made laws as well.
For example. It’s illegal to bike without a helmet. If I do that am I committing a mortal sin? What if I don’t feel like wearing a helmet? How is it a sin just because some guy thought it up one day and wrote it on a piece of paper?
 
Side question according to Catholicism, whyust children obey their parents? What if a father is crazy and orders his child to do something which is painful and pointless? Example. A father orders his child to spread ashes on his food because the father thinks this will teach his child discipline or something. According to the Catholic Church ( as well as other religions). It would be s mortal sin for a child to run away or disobey an abusive parent.
Just for the record. I’m not religious anymore. I’m just asking these questions because I’m genuinely trying to make sense of your religion. I gotta say though. After years of intense scrupulosity, I’m very glad I left religion before finding these things out.
 
Second scenario. Let’s a say a person is suffering from a horrible disease and there is medication which would help him/ her. But it’s banned in his/ her country. Would importing the medicine be a mortal sin in that case? I don’t think that’s a silly question. Now is it?
 
someperson555 said:
Side question according to Catholicism, whyust children obey their parents? What if a father is crazy and orders his child to do something which is painful and pointless? Example. A father orders his child to spread ashes on his food because the father thinks this will teach his child discipline or something. According to the Catholic Church ( as well as other religions). It would be s mortal sin for a child to run away or disobey an abusive parent.
Just for the record. I’m not religious anymore. I’m just asking these questions because I’m genuinely trying to make sense of your religion. I gotta say though. After years of intense scrupulosity, I’m very glad I left religion before finding these things out.
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If the law is silly to most people, then it is probably silly to God also.
 
someperson555 said:
So then it’s a mortal sin to pass gass during the night? I’m serious. The noise ordinance States that it is illegal to make sounds above 45 decibels at night. Passing gas as well as other activities produce more than 45 decibels. So, by your logic it’s a mortal sin to pass gas at night? By your logic, it is also a mortal sin to jaywalk even when there are no cars on the street.
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We are only required to obey the law as much as the government enforces it. No one expects the governemnt to arrest anyone for these things, so it’s not a problem if we, too, disregard them.

ETA: and we are not required to obey immoral laws.
 
Viki63 said:
Casilda never said it was a mortal sin to disregard civil laws.

We are to render to God the things that are God’s and to Caesar the things that are Caesar’s. So we pay taxes, obey the traffic laws, etc.
We are also supposed to use the brains God gave us.
Your examples are kind of silly – there’s no law against chocolate syrup on pancakes, and if there were, we should change it.

Here are a couple for you:
In Indiana, To stroll down the street playing a violin is against the law.

In Pennsylvania, Toads may not be licked.

I think we can safely disregard some laws which are just silly (although there’s probably a good reason to avoid licking toads.)
But we should obey the authorities as long as they don’t conflict with God’s law.

.
Click to expand...
“Give unto Caesar what is Caesars and to God what is Gods” verse does NOT mean we are to give everything ‘caesar’ asks/demands, we are to only give/obey up to a certain point.

You cannot serve two masters successfully, one has to be the priority, especially in the world we live in today, someone simply cannot be a devout christian AND a model secular citizen, its just not possible.

Jesus warned us we would hated and persecuted just like he was, all due to his name, I tend to think if a christian finds themselves not hated and not persecuted…well, there is probably a good reason for that!
 
someperson555 said:
Second scenario. Let’s a say a person is suffering from a horrible disease and there is medication which would help him/ her. But it’s banned in his/ her country. Would importing the medicine be a mortal sin in that case? I don’t think that’s a silly question. Now is it?
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This might be one of those questions like is it ok to lie to the Nazis if you are hiding Jews in your house.
 
The catholic church teaching on this can be broken down primarily into two arguments:

**1) Romans 13:1-2 “Let every person be subject to the governing authorities. For there is no authority except from God, and those that exist have been instituted by God. Therefore, he who resists the authorities resists what God has appointed, and those who resist will incur judgment.”
  1. St. Thomas Aquinas STh "A human law has the character of law to the extent that it accords with right reason, and thus derives from the eternal law. Insofar as it falls short of right reason it is said to be an unjust law, and thus has not so much the nature of law as of a kind of violence.**
Catholics are required to obey civil law as far as they are right and just. Speed limits are (hopefully) intended to save lives, an I think therefore are right and just laws. A law that promotes abortion, as a favorite example, is not right and just because it goes against natural law and is to be opposed.

Peace
 
100% yes, take down the unconstitutional draft and legalize mj; you know there’s the votes for it. Watch the neocons squirm.
 
someperson555 said:
So then it’s a mortal sin to pass gass during the night? I’m serious. The noise ordinance States that it is illegal to make sounds above 45 decibels at night. Passing gas as well as other activities produce more than 45 decibels. So, by your logic it’s a mortal sin to pass gas at night? By your logic, it is also a mortal sin to jaywalk even when there are no cars on the street.
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First off, everyone makes noise above 45 dBA at night. Speaking, TV, driving. You are completely misunderstanding the statute, which I imagine states something along the lines of making noise that is 45 dBA after if breaks through the facade of someone else’s house (meaning the original noise source is quite loud). The noise would probably also have to be sustained over 15 mins or so, so it wouldn’t apply to a truck or car driving by.

Second, no one said mortal sin. Jaywalking when there is no cars probably isn’t a sin - common sense can apply. However one is most definitely subject to civil as well as moral law. Give unto Ceasar and all that.
 
Thomas Aquinas addressed this quite well in the Summa, part 1, question 96, article 4 :
Article 4. Whether human law binds a man in conscience?
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I answer that, Laws framed by man are either just or unjust. If they be just, they have the power of binding in conscience, from the eternal law whence they are derived, according to Proverbs 8:15: “By Me kings reign, and lawgivers decree just things.” Now laws are said to be just, both from the end, when, to wit, they are ordained to the common good–and from their author, that is to say, when the law that is made does not exceed the power of the lawgiver–and from their form, when, to wit, burdens are laid on the subjects, according to an equality of proportion and with a view to the common good. For, since one man is a part of the community, each man in all that he is and has, belongs to the community; just as a part, in all that it is, belongs to the whole; wherefore nature inflicts a loss on the part, in order to save the whole: so that on this account, such laws as these, which impose proportionate burdens, are just and binding in conscience, and are legal laws.
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The Catechism of the Catholic Church also addresses the point:
1897 "Human society can be neither well-ordered nor prosperous unless it has some people invested with legitimate authority to preserve its institutions and to devote themselves as far as is necessary to work and care for the good of all."15
By “authority” one means the quality by virtue of which persons or institutions make laws and give orders to men and expect obedience from them.
1898 Every human community needs an authority to govern it.16 The foundation of such authority lies in human nature. It is necessary for the unity of the state. Its role is to ensure as far as possible the common good of the society.
1899 The authority required by the moral order derives from God: "Let every person be subject to the governing authorities. For there is no authority except from God, and those that exist have been instituted by God. Therefore he who resists the authorities resists what God has appointed, and those who
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Even without the Church’s explicit teaching, it seems a very natural point of view that we are morally bound by just human laws.
 
someperson555 said:
I have always said and believed that human law has no authority over other humans. Only Gods law is to be obeyed.
Click to expand...
So long as a civil law is just—and if a law is unjust it isn’t really a law—then obeying it is an extension of obeying the law of God, Who Himself desires men to submit to legitimate authority.

The just laws of men and their enforcement are what is called the deputized justice of God. They are the ways in which God rules the human society.

But you’re right in this sense: civil law is legitimate insofar as it is a cultural application of the law of God. Our obedience to it is not an end in itself, the proper end is God. This is similar to how we ought to love our neighbor out of love for God. Our neighbor isn’t the end in sight but rather God.
 
tafan said:
Thomas Aquinas addressed this quite well in the Summa, part 1, question 96, article 4 :

The Catechism of the Catholic Church also addresses the point:

Even without the Church’s explicit teaching, it seems a very natural point of view that we are morally bound by just human laws.
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Right.

👍
 
Just because something doesn’t implicate sin doesn’t mean we shouldn’t obey it as a prudential matter to ensure the smooth functioning of society.

As far as obscure town statutes from the 1800s that say it’s illegal to yodel on a wednesday or whatever…common sense would apply here, I think
 
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