Is this really what the Catholic Church teaches?

[Rocky]

When I was growing up and being taught by the nuns—a long time before Vatican II, by the way— the nuns explained this passage by saying that if any Catholic thought it is easier to do God’s will and get to heaven outside of the Church, they were sadly mistaken. Why? Because Christ gave us invaluable help (grace) through the seven Sacraments left to us. If we abandon that help, why would anyone think it would be easier?

Made sense to me then, and makes sense to me now. As to who will actually be invited into to heaven at the end of life, that is up to God, as those dear nuns would say.

 

[Della]

Again Della I wish I could shut my brain off and simply accept something when clear English says another, unfortunately I can’t and this has caused me much grief over my life…

We’ll agree to disagree, I thought in the interest of fairness the OP should see both sides and come to her own conclusion.

Well, I certainly haven’t had to “shut off my brain” in order to accept the Church’s teaching as found in the CCC. And as for “clear English”, it isn’t “clear English.” It’s an interpretation from the Latin, not that we can’t trust it, but it wasn’t composed in English primarily for English speaking people.

This sort of thinking is exactly what causes many people to leave the Church Christ founded for some other faith community that “makes more sense” to them personally. That is not how Christ set up his Church nor what he intended.

As for providing the OP with another side–all you’ve done is provide her with a misinterpretation based on what you want to accept. Which is, dear friend, hardly the same thing at all.

I’m sorry for your grief, I truly am. You need to talk to your priest/bishop about this ASAP.

 

[lukewarm]

Well, I certainly haven’t had to “shut off my brain” in order to accept the Church’s teaching as found in the CCC. And as for “clear English”, it isn’t “clear English.” It’s an interpretation from the Latin, not that we can’t trust it, but it wasn’t composed in English primarily for English speaking people.

This sort of thinking is exactly what causes many people to leave the Church Christ founded for some other faith community that “makes more sense” to them personally. That is not how Christ set up his Church nor what he intended.

Well Della you said “it’s for the Church to interpret not your or I” that is akin to “shutting off your brain” IMO. If that isn’t “shutting off your brain” than what is it? That’s a serious question because I haven’t been able to understand what the difference is.

As for providing the OP with another side–all you’ve done is provide her with a misinterpretation based on what you want to accept. Which is, dear friend, hardly the same thing at all.

What I did was give the OP verbatim quotes directly from Papal Bulls that tell another side than the Catechism does today. I.E. both sides, I barely even gave any commentary, the OP can read the Papal Bulls as well as todays Catechism and decide. As far as a “misinterpretation” I don’t think so, that’s like saying I misinterpretated my wife when she asked for a glass of water. She wanted water not papaya juice… If something is clearly defined in a Papal Bull it is what it is. Unless of course you grit your teeth and just say “nah nah no it isn’t”…

I’m sorry for your grief, I truly am. You need to talk to your priest/bishop about this ASAP.

Thanks you for that, I’m out of the Church anyway now and meeting with a Bishop is impossible we all know in the Catholic Church you don’t just meet with Bishops, heck I couldn’t even get an audience with my Parish Priest. It wouldn’t do any good, like I said I can’t just lie to myself and tell myself something doesn’t mean what it clearly means, my brain doesn’t work that way, although admittedly it would be much easier on me if it did, and for that I am jealous.

 

[Della]

Well Della you said “it’s for the Church to interpret not your or I” that is akin to “shutting off your brain” IMO. If that isn’t “shutting off your brain” than what is it? That’s a serious question because I haven’t been able to understand what the difference is.

No, it’s putting trust in the institution Christ founded, which he promised would be led into all truth and never fail. That’s what it is. It’s called faith in Christ.

What I did was give the OP verbatim quotes directly from Papal Bulls that tell another side than the Catechism does today. I.E. both sides, I barely even gave any commentary, the OP can read the Papal Bulls as well as todays Catechism and decide. As far as a “misinterpretation” I don’t think so, that’s like saying I misinterpretated my wife when she asked for a glass of water. She wanted water not papaya juice… If something is clearly defined in a Papal Bull it is what it is. Unless of course you grit your teeth and just say “nah nah no it isn’t”…

Verbatim isn’t “what it says” when you put limits on it that do not exist. The Church has the right and duty to interpret its own documents–the Magisterium knows the mind of the popes better than you or I who are not trained in theology nor have the God-given responsibility to lead God’s people. It’s about trust, not what you think it ought to mean.

Thanks you for that, I’m out of the Church anyway now and meeting with a Bishop is impossible we all know in the Catholic Church you don’t just meet with Bishops, heck I couldn’t even get an audience with my Parish Priest. It wouldn’t do any good, like I said I can’t just lie to myself and tell myself something doesn’t mean what it clearly means, my brain doesn’t work that way, although admittedly it would be much easier on me if it did, and for that I am jealous.

I’m not surprised you’ve left the Church. But, as for not being able to see your priest or bishop, all you need do is make an appointment. If you’ve made up your mind without any spiritual guidance from the pastors set over you, then what else can you expect but to be eternally without succor in this matter? I will pray for you.

 

[Annie_B]

**Thank you everyone for posting **[SIGN]THANKS[/SIGN]

Annie

 

[lukewarm]

We’re just spinning our wheels here Della… As for my eternal state that isn’t for you to decide, it’s for God, and I’m certain that when you die you’ll be surprised to know it isn’t anything like you thought or were taught by the church. I’ve come to this position through prayers to God to lead me where I should go. I was once a dyed in the wool full believing Catholic but chinks in the armor started rising when I realized there are plenty examples of the Church infallibly declaring contradictory teachings. This can’t work for an infallible Church unable to err. I prayed and prayed and God lead me out I’m certain of it.

Annie,

Read the Papal Bulls I listed here, these are not some Jack Chick anti-Catholic tracts, these are “infallible” binding documents written and approved by previous Popes of the Catholic Church. They aren’t difficult to understand, the wording is very clear and definitive with no ambiguity as to its real meaning. Make up your own mind. Folks like Della fall back on “well it couldn’t mean what it appears to mean because the Church later contradicted it, and since the Church can’t err there must be another explanation”. That sort of circular logic doesn’t work for me, it has no basis in reason and using our God given common sense, and to believe it you must in a way "check your brain at the door and call it “faith”…

 

[Lee44]

Annie,

Be careful, these Romans on this forum are trying to scare you with there hocus pocus nonsense.

God Bless

 

[rpp]

Annie,

Be careful, these Romans on this forum are trying to scare you with there hocus pocus nonsense.

God Bless

Exactly how is this charitable, or even neutral? How is this even on topic?

The topic is about what the Catholic Church teaches. If you want to insult an entire religion, take it to another website.

No one is insulting you or your religion on this thread. Treat others with the same respect you want for yourself. If you are unable to do that, perhaps you are in the wrong place.

 

[Della]

The teaching of the Church has always been that salvation is possible for those outside of it. This is a complex issue, but not one that cannot be understood in the light of constant Church teaching.

As to the charge by lukewarm that the Church’s teaching changed after Vatican II, here is an article that clearly shows that is not the case. It discusses Fr. Feeney who was discharged from the Jesuits for teaching a faulty interpretation in the era before VII, but he died reconciled to the Church and the fullness of its teachings: Is There Salvation Outside the Church?.

I stand by what I wrote. As to the idea that I know anyone’s eternal fate, I never made that claim, and wouldn’t. I’m sorry if lukewarm misunderstood my intentions.

 

[TexCatholic4JMJ]

Lukewarm, I had written many paragraphs on why I disagree with
“your” interpretations, but I was not finished and am at the last
of my energy for the day (I’ve been very ill for days now) so I
decided to try and be pithy about it.
There is too much of “you” in your interpretations. A lot of
“head” knowledge and a lot of blocking out of others views,
especially of the Magisterium.
Praying you have peace someday.

 

[Mannyfit75]

Anne, the Catholic Church teaches that only Jesus Christ is the way to salvation. God who can know the hearts of men can make a judgement call who goes to heaven.

The Catechism states:

“Outside the Church there is no salvation”

846 How are we to understand this affirmation, often repeated by the Church Fathers?335 Re-formulated positively, it means that all salvation comes from Christ the Head through the Church which is his Body:

Basing itself on Scripture and Tradition, the Council teaches that the Church, a pilgrim now on earth, is necessary for salvation: the one Christ is the mediator and the way of salvation; he is present to us in his body which is the Church. He himself explicitly asserted the necessity of faith and Baptism, and thereby affirmed at the same time the necessity of the Church which men enter through Baptism as through a door. Hence they could not be saved who, knowing that the Catholic Church was founded as necessary by God through Christ, would refuse either to enter it or to remain in it.336

847 This affirmation is not aimed at those who, through no fault of their own, do not know Christ and his Church:

Those who, through no fault of their own, do not know the Gospel of Christ or his Church, but who nevertheless seek God with a sincere heart, and, moved by grace, try in their actions to do his will as they know it through the dictates of their conscience - those too may achieve eternal salvation.337

848 "Although in ways known to himself God can lead those who, through no fault of their own, are ignorant of the Gospel, to that faith without which it is impossible to please him, the Church still has the obligation and also the sacred right to evangelize all men."338

Source: scborromeo.org/ccc/p123a9p3.htm#847

 

[The_GreyPilgrim]

Anne, the Catholic Church teaches that only Jesus Christ is the way to salvation. God who can know the hearts of men can make a judgement call who goes to heaven.

The Catechism states:

“Outside the Church there is no salvation”

846 How are we to understand this affirmation, often repeated by the Church Fathers?335 Re-formulated positively, it means that all salvation comes from Christ the Head through the Church which is his Body:

Basing itself on Scripture and Tradition, the Council teaches that the Church, a pilgrim now on earth, is necessary for salvation: the one Christ is the mediator and the way of salvation; he is present to us in his body which is the Church. He himself explicitly asserted the necessity of faith and Baptism, and thereby affirmed at the same time the necessity of the Church which men enter through Baptism as through a door. Hence they could not be saved who, knowing that the Catholic Church was founded as necessary by God through Christ, would refuse either to enter it or to remain in it.336

847 This affirmation is not aimed at those who, through no fault of their own, do not know Christ and his Church:

Those who, through no fault of their own, do not know the Gospel of Christ or his Church, but who nevertheless seek God with a sincere heart, and, moved by grace, try in their actions to do his will as they know it through the dictates of their conscience - those too **may achieve eternal salvation. **337

848 "Although in ways known to himself God can lead those who, through no fault of their own, are ignorant of the Gospel, to that faith without which it is impossible to please him, the Church still has the obligation and also the sacred right to evangelize all men."338

Source: scborromeo.org/ccc/p123a9p3.htm#847

What should be especially noted in the CCC are the phrases I highlighted in bold.

the Church… is necessary for salvation

Those who, through no fault of their own, do not know the Gospel of Christ or his Church…may achieve eternal salvation.

These points are very explicit. The Church is necessary for salvation. And those who are ignorant of the gospel through no fault of their own MAY-not definitely-MAY achieve eternal salvation.

In the Catechism the Church always leaves it open for God to do as He will.

But for those who have left the Church, and those Protestants who HAVE knowledge of the Gospel yet openly object to His Church which He established, as far as the Church knows they have abandoned the flock. They have either forsaken their faith in Christ’s Body-the Church-and therefore forsaken the Head which is Christ, believing themselves in their own mind to be more righteous and therefore above His Body; or they have openly rejected the Church due to the false teachings of others even though the Truth that is contained in the Church is readily available.

I do not sugar coat this because I care deeply for those, who like the Catholic Church, have a deep reverence and love for our Saviour. I feel that to sugur coat it would be to fail in putting forth the truth.

God will do as He wills. It may that He decides to invite some Protestants to the heavenly banquet; it may be that many Catholics don’t make it. Jesus promised in His kingdom parables that there would be wheat and chaff in His kingdom and that the chaff would eventually be removed at the parousia. I just pray that the chaff will be far and few between.

 

[angelusm]

Hello!
I saw the following two posts in another thread and I was really surprized. Is this really what the Catholic church teaches? I would really like to know . I was Catholic, converted to LDS , but never heard this before. Thanks so much! (This may have been better posted in another category, but since the original quotes were in this one, I left it here…
Annie

**<<< #6 Jan 31, '08, 1:57 pm
cradlecathlic26
Re: Is Jesus Christ and the Roman Catholic Church the only way to salvation?

-----Yes you must have jesus to have salvation, but you do not have to be catholic to get it. Thats what we catholics believe.

cradlecathlic26
#7 Jan 31, '08, 2:16 pm
jmcrae
Re: Is Jesus Christ and the Roman Catholic Church the only way to salvation?​

Quote:
Originally Posted by cradlecathlic26
Yes you must have jesus to have salvation, but you do not have to be catholic to get it. Thats what we catholics believe.

If you know Jesus, then you will become a Catholic before you are saved - either here in this life, or else in Purgatory. >>>**

Jesus made St. Peter his vicar on earth, the first pope. So how can you believe in Jesus if you don’t obey the pope? You cannot chose what you like and reject what you don’t like. Be hot or cold, never lukewarm. We have to try to get to heaven through a narrow gate, it means we have to be strict and fully obedient. It’s extremely risky to outside the CC even if you “believe” in Jesus. How are you gonna get the Eucharist? How are you gonna confess your sins? You won’t find it in protestant denominations. As LDS you also deny the fact that Holy Spirit is a Divine Person. And this IS a problem. You cannot become Catholic in purgatory, that’s a completely ridiculous idea. Life is NOW, after death it’s gonna be to late for everything.

 

[Annie_B]

Jesus made St. Peter his vicar on earth, the first pope. So how can you believe in Jesus if you don’t obey the pope? You cannot chose what you like and reject what you don’t like. Be hot or cold, never lukewarm. We have to try to get to heaven through a narrow gate, it means we have to be strict and fully obedient. It’s extremely risky to outside the CC even if you “believe” in Jesus. How are you gonna get the Eucharist? How are you gonna confess your sins? You won’t find it in protestant denominations. As LDS you also deny the fact that Holy Spirit is a Divine Person. And this IS a problem. You cannot become Catholic in purgatory, that’s a completely ridiculous idea. Life is NOW, after death it’s gonna be to late for everything.

You say that “after death it’s gonna be too late for everything”…If this is true, then why do Catholics pray for the souls in purgatory?

Annie

 

[lukewarm]

You say that “after death it’s gonna be too late for everything”…If this is true, then why do Catholics pray for the souls in purgatory?

Annie

Catholicism teaches that anyone in purgatory is saved already, it isn’t a “second chance” it is a place of torment where Catholics pay the temporal punishment for sins commited and already forgiven, and to lose attachment to sin. Unless a Saint everyone saved already goes to purgatory, those that die with unconfessed mortal sin go directly to hell. Once in purgatory you are saved already, the praying helps “reduce the time” for the loved ones in purgatory.

 

[Annie_B]

Catholicism teaches that anyone in purgatory is saved already, it isn’t a “second chance” it is a place of torment where Catholics pay the temporal punishment for sins commited and already forgiven, and to lose attachment to sin. Unless a Saint everyone goes to purgatory, those that die with unconfessed mortal sin go directly to hell. Once in purgatory you are saved already, the praying helps “reduce the time” for the loved ones in purgatory.

Thanks for clearing that up

Annie

 

[Hisalone]

Jesus made St. Peter his vicar on earth, the first pope. So how can you believe in Jesus if you don’t obey the pope? You cannot chose what you like and reject what you don’t like. Be hot or cold, never lukewarm. We have to try to get to heaven through a narrow gate, it means we have to be strict and fully obedient. It’s extremely risky to outside the CC even if you “believe” in Jesus. How are you gonna get the Eucharist? How are you gonna confess your sins? You won’t find it in protestant denominations. As LDS you also deny the fact that Holy Spirit is a Divine Person. And this IS a problem. You cannot become Catholic in purgatory, that’s a completely ridiculous idea. Life is NOW, after death it’s gonna be to late for everything.

Annie B please see how on point my original post was.
There are many, many Catholics that think the way the above poster does. They tell you on one hand only God knows who is saved and then with the other hand they claim that it is through the Catholic Church one is saved. That is why I say that Bill Clinton has nothing on the Catholics when it comes to parsing words—not AntiCatholic just an observation.

 

[panoikei]

Lukewarm,
If you go over the the Traditional Catholic threads, you’ll run into my dad’s folks. SSPX…tell tell you plain and clearn…“your going to hell if you’re not Catholc” and “if you are you better be a good one at that”.

I think you need to understand that the Church is being cheritable here. The Church does NOT define who is going to hell, but rather tells you for sure how to get there. If may say its possible, but that may not mean God will save you.

Annie,
I am a revert. It took me 17+ years away from the Church to learn what I know now. Everyone has the answer, just ask them. The bible say to “seek out your faith with fear and trembling.” Do that. If you were to attend an orthodox Catholic RCIA and learn from orthodox Catholics, you’d learn what the church truly teaches, not all this slanted stuff.

Ask what Lukewarm recited to a real educated apologist. That’s where you should go. You need someone who is very educated with Church teaching and documents to know how to approach this. I’d do it but I’m no match for a true apologist. Pray…seek the truth…accept non-other. This has been my entire life, and I fought like H E double toothpicks not to come back Home, but after intense research I can’t find a thing wrong with the teachings of the Church, but I can find a lot of fault with those claiming to know the teaching of the Church. That’s why I hesitate to try for now, but give me time…

There are “Old Catholics” still existing today that reject the doctrin of infallibility. But the docrine is much misunderstood. Be careful who you listen too. Research on you own, but find educated, fact based, people to help out. Even then, the Church has final authority. That’s the only way this Church has held together for 2000 years. People are imperfect sinners.

Peace of Christ.

 

[Della]

"angelusm:

Jesus made St. Peter his vicar on earth, the first pope. So how can you believe in Jesus if you don’t obey the pope? You cannot chose what you like and reject what you don’t like. Be hot or cold, never lukewarm. We have to try to get to heaven through a narrow gate, it means we have to be strict and fully obedient. It’s extremely risky to outside the CC even if you “believe” in Jesus. How are you gonna get the Eucharist? How are you gonna confess your sins? You won’t find it in protestant denominations. As LDS you also deny the fact that Holy Spirit is a Divine Person. And this IS a problem. You cannot become Catholic in purgatory, that’s a completely ridiculous idea. Life is NOW, after death it’s gonna be to late for everything.

Annie B please see how on point my original post was.
There are many, many Catholics that think the way the above poster does. They tell you on one hand only God knows who is saved and then with the other hand they claim that it is through the Catholic Church one is saved. That is why I say that Bill Clinton has nothing on the Catholics when it comes to parsing words—not AntiCatholic just an observation.

I highlighted the relevant phrase here not to cherrypick but to point out that angelusm is right about this. S/he may have expressed him/herself a bit overly zealously, but this is correct. It is dangerous to be outside the visible Church. There are no guarantees that the life someone lives apart from the sacraments established by Christ will persevere to the end.

There’s no free ride for Catholics, either. Indeed, Catholics will have more to answer for because we have the fullness of truth in the teachings of the Church. Jesus said, “To whom much is given, much will be expected.”

It is possible for non-Catholics and non-Christians to be saved but only in Christ–by the redemption he gained for all men and by living the life of grace given to each one of us. The Church is the ordinary means of obtaining saving grace, therefore all who take advantage of the grace God gives them are, implicitly or explicitly, going through Christ who alone will judge who was a member of his body and who wasn’t in this life.

It’s a complex issue, as I stated in another post. All it means, in the end, is that God alone is the judge of who will be saved and who won’t.

 

[dmelosi]

Annie B please see how on point my original post was.
There are many, many Catholics that think the way the above poster does. They tell you on one hand only God knows who is saved and then with the other hand they claim that it is through the Catholic Church one is saved. That is why I say that Bill Clinton has nothing on the Catholics when it comes to parsing words—not AntiCatholic just an observation.

Not anti-Catholic? I think you may be fooling only yourself with that statement.