Is this rejecting Christ ?

[snarflemike]

So no one hearing him nor the disciples had life yet? For it was some time before there was a eucharist.

Once he laid down that rule, all were bound by it. One is obviously not bound by Jesus’ words before he speaks them.

 

[Erick_Ybarra]

So for possibly 1 year the disciple, including the 12, had no life even though they believed in Jesus, until they ate the Eucharist?

 

[Bookcat]

Therefore what you are saying is that it is possible for all people, given that they are moved by grace to keep the law of their conscience, respite the fact that they have read the scriptures, have been evangelized by other catholics, have been born into the catholic faith, can still go to heaven becaude it is possible that they might just not have paid good enough attention?

And what happens if a pagan man comes up to a priest and says ‘‘I’m already saved because I keep the law of my conscience and I love the Hindu God brahman’’

I am saying what I said. I can not read the hearts and minds of others.

Nor do I see all that God does.

God is the one who judges the man who says:

‘‘I’m already saved because I keep the law of my conscience and I love the Hindu God brahman’’

Not me.

This is not some approach that says it does not matter…or we are not to preach the Gospel…or that someone can be “saved” by other then Jesus Christ…

It is normative for all to believe in Jesus Christ.

But God can work in ways we do not know and do not see.

What am I to do --what is the Church to do? To proclaim the Gospel. To proclaim Jesus Christ.

 

[Bookcat]

So for possibly 1 year the disciple, including the 12, had no life even though they believed in Jesus, until they ate the Eucharist?

One must understand the Sacred Scriptures as the Church understand them.

Jesus words must be understood correctly – and no they do not mean that no one had “life” before they received the Eucharist the first time.

 

[Erick_Ybarra]

I am saying what I said. I can not read the hearts and minds of others.

Nor do I see all that God does.

God is the one who judges the man who says:

‘‘I’m already saved because I keep the law of my conscience and I love the Hindu God brahman’’

Not me.

This is not some approach that says it does not matter…or we are not to preach the Gospel…or that someone can be “saved” by other then Jesus Christ…

It is normative for all to believe in Jesus Christ.

But God can work in ways we do not know and do not see.

What am I to do --what is the Church to do? To proclaim the Gospel. To proclaim Jesus Christ.

Jesus Christ gave the church a condemning law ‘‘Go into all the world and preach the gospel to every creature. He which believes and is baptized will be saved. He who does not believe will be condemned’’ (mark 16:15).

Jesus said this, therefore it is Gods condemning law spoke in advance. We are not the judge, but he has spoken this law and we proclaim it. It is not a suggestion ‘‘God commands all mankind to repent’’ (acts 17:30). We cannot allow this law to be fudged.

 

[Bookcat]

Jesus Christ gave the church a condemning law ‘‘Go into all the world and preach the gospel to every creature. He which believes and is baptized will be saved. He who does not believe will be condemned’’ (mark 16:15).

Jesus said this, therefore it is Gods condemning law spoke in advance. We are not the judge, but he has spoken this law and we proclaim it. It is not a suggestion ‘‘God commands all mankind to repent’’ (acts 17:30). We cannot allow this law to be fudged.

It is GOD who would save any who are saved…(and though Jesus of course)

What Jesus says there of course is true. But it is according to what HE meant.

(and the term “condemning law” is not a term the Church or Scripture uses in for this verse)

He also said " …unless you hate your mother and your father…your wife and children…you cannot be my disciple" …

Someone could say --well if you do not hated your mother --sorry Your not his disciple.

One must understand his words etc properly.

Are we to believe and be baptized? Yes. Could I reject salvation …reject the life of God …reject true life if I refuse now to believe? Sure that is yes a possibility.

But God judges the heart not just exterior actions --he judges us too according to our lights. Some kid who was raised by parents teaching him that followers of Christ are evil and eat children – and who upon meeting a Christian who proposes Christ to them – says no way! – is going to be in a different situation I would think than someone who chooses to renounce their Faith etc.

 

[Erick_Ybarra]

‘‘The message of the cross is foolishness to those who are perishing, but to us who are being saved, it is the power of God’’ (1 Corinthians 1:18).

Is Paul not apostolic? Did he not say ‘‘all which do not love Jesus Christ are accursed’’ (1cor 16:22).

Any religion out there, despite their hatred toward Jesus christ, despite their commitment to idolatry, despite their commitment to worshipping God through demonic excerpts uses, etc, etc, can all be saved If they just are overall good people?

 

[Bookcat]

‘‘The message of the cross is foolishness to those who are perishing, but to us who are being saved, it is the power of God’’ (1 Corinthians 1:18).

Is Paul not apostolic? Did he not say ‘‘all which do not love Jesus Christ are accursed’’ (1cor 16:22).

Any religion out there, despite their hatred toward Jesus christ, despite their commitment to idolatry, despite their commitment to worshipping God through demonic excerpts uses, etc, etc, can all be saved If they just are overall good people?

Have already answered you.

They are NOT saved --if they are saved-- for being overall good People. Or by errors etc in a religious belief they have followed. If they are saved --they are saved by Jesus Christ.

Is the cross “foolishness to those to those who are perishing”…yes that is true.

 

[Bookcat]

It is GOD who would save any who are saved…(and though Jesus of course)

What Jesus says there of course is true. But it is according to what HE meant.

(and the term “condemning law” is not a term the Church or Scripture uses in for this verse)

He also said " …unless you hate your mother and your father…your wife and children…you cannot be my disciple" …

Someone could say --well if you do not hated your mother --sorry Your not his disciple.

One must understand his words etc properly.

Are we to believe and be baptized? Yes. Could I reject salvation …reject the life of God …reject true life if I refuse now to believe? Sure that is yes a possibility.

But God judges the heart not just exterior actions --he judges us too according to our lights. Some kid who was raised by parents teaching him that followers of Christ are evil and eat children – and who upon meeting a Christian who proposes Christ to them – says no way! – is going to be in a different situation I would think than someone who chooses to renounce their Faith etc.

 

[Erick_Ybarra]

Have already answered you.

They are NOT saved --if they are saved-- for being overall good People. Or by errors etc in a religious belief they have followed. If they are saved --they are saved by Jesus Christ.

Is the cross “foolishness to those to those who are perishing”…yes that is true.

I never denied your point that they are saved by Jesus, apart from their errors.
What I am saying is thy the apostolic voice does not permit this teaching and that it is very new in Christendom, that any one can be saved by Jesus, even if they hate him, commit themsleves and their whole lives to idolatry, and die in the worship of false gods. This is neither Jewish or Christian theology.

 

[Tantum_ergo]

‘‘The message of the cross is foolishness to those who are perishing, but to us who are being saved, it is the power of God’’ (1 Corinthians 1:18).

Is Paul not apostolic? Did he not say ‘‘all which do not love Jesus Christ are accursed’’ (1cor 16:22).

Any religion out there, despite their hatred toward Jesus christ, despite their commitment to idolatry, despite their commitment to worshipping God through demonic excerpts uses, etc, etc, can all be saved If they just are overall good people?

But do they really hate Jesus? or do they hate some false figure that they are told is ‘Jesus’?

No matter what, they will ONLY be saved through Jesus. That’s a truth.

But look at the people who died before Jesus was born. Did they know Him? Nope. . .but if they were saved, and many we know were, wasn’t it through Jesus? If they did not know Him as the God-Man who walked the earth from approximately 4BC to AD 29, they most CERTAINLY knew Him in some other way.

The Father, Son, and Spirit are one. Therefore the many great Jewish OT saints knew Jesus in the Father. To this day, there are Jews and Muslims who ‘know’ Jesus through the Father and thus MAY be saved, even if they speak ‘wrongly’ of Jesus Christ, because the "christ’ they are told of is not the TRUE Christ. Think of it: To Jews he was a crazy blasphemer. Was Jesus a crazy blasphemer? NO! Therefore, to ‘reject’ Jesus as a crazy blasphemer means you are not really rejecting Jesus. You’re rejecting a false image which is called’ Jesus’ but is not. To Muslims, He is a prophet, but not God. Is Jesus God? Of course! Muslims have been taught a false Jesus so they ‘reject’ His godhood but they do not necessarily reject the TRUE Jesus. For if the Jews and Muslims know the Father, they know the true Jesus, and if they are saved it is through that belief in the True even while they might speak and reject the ‘false’ jesus.

For others who don’t believe in God at all, it might be that they reject a false god --the person they have been told is ‘god’ is some bloodthirsty intolerant ‘myth’. Is God a bloodthirsty intolerant myth? NO! Therefore, what these people ‘reject’ as god is NOT REALLY GOD at all. And so, they might still be saved for while they reject a false ‘god’ even thinking that the falsehood represents ‘truth’, they might still know in their hearts (as people did before God manifested Himself to the Jewish people and then through them in Christ), the ‘true God’ and thus be saved.

It certainly behooves us to evangelize and speak the TRUTH, but WE cannot judge the heart of another or claim WITH CERTAINTY that a given person who supposedly ‘rejects god’ might not reject the True God, or might not repent at death, AND BE SAVED.

 

[Tantum_ergo]

I never denied your point that they are saved by Jesus, apart from their errors.
What I am saying is thy the apostolic voice does not permit this teaching and that it is very new in Christendom, that any one can be saved by Jesus, even if they hate him, commit themsleves and their whole lives to idolatry, and die in the worship of false gods. This is neither Jewish or Christian theology.

But you are changing and redefining your original point.

You do not know, and cannot claim, that ANY individual truly hates the real Jesus, or that you know WITH TOTAL CERTAINTY that they 'die in the worship of a false god", without repenting (and thus, being saved). You do not know the heart of any other person, or the judgment God gives any other individual.

The Catholic Church has (wisely) NEVER taught that ANY given soul is in hell, not even Judas, who we KNOW from Scripture not only betrayed Christ, but killed himself in despair. Or that Ananias and Saphira, who both tried to ‘cheat’ God and whose cheating was seen by St Peter, such that they fell dead at his feet, are in hell. Or that Pontius Pilate is in hell (indeed in some Eastern Churches he is considered a saint).

So your attitude puzzles me. You seem to want the Church to come out and physically declare, for example, that all people who ever heard the name “Jesus Christ” and were told that He is Lord, but who continued to worship as Muslims, Jews, or Hindus, Buddhists, Shintoists, pagans, etc., are absolutely, undeniably, “in hell for rejecting Christ and dying in worship of false gods”. . .but you really don’t know if they truly KNEW Christ, or if they did not ‘know’ and choose Him at the moment of death. . .

 

[Bookcat]

I never denied your point that they are saved by Jesus, apart from their errors.
What I am saying is thy the apostolic voice does not permit this teaching and that it is very new in Christendom, that any one can be saved by Jesus, even if they hate him, commit themsleves and their whole lives to idolatry, and die in the worship of false gods. This is neither Jewish or Christian theology.

Your basically setting up a strawman and knocking him down

 

[Erick_Ybarra]

Catholic teaching has never taught that people from other religions can be saved. The church understood itself as the meansbif salvation for the world. The churrch always taught that forgiveness of sin, the sacraments, eternal life, and salvation were graces that are only obtained through herself and the gospel.

When Jesus said that those who do not believe are condemned alreaymdy, what can he be referring to other than his teaching?

Are we now epistemological relatavists? When Paul was preaching to the Athenians, did he admit that Christ could be worshipped in their idols? No! God forbid!

He knew that did not know God. That is why he took the oppurtunity to take the statue of the unknown God and explain to them who he is. God forbid if Paul thought they were already saved by worshipping the true god through their idols or through the tale God.

Do you see? God did not concede to the possibility that the other nations worshipped the same God as the Jews by virtue of the fact that He might be somewhere in their false idolatrous theology.

 

[Erick_Ybarra]

Catholic teaching never taught this until.recently

 

[onemangang]

Catholic teaching never taught this until.recently

goarch.org/ourfaith/ourfaith8089

Paul, addressingthe Athenians attheAreopagus, observesthat*they worship an unknown God, whose name and message he came to proclaim (Acts 17:23-31).

So, there is the seedlings of a developed doctrine from the bible that wasn’t yet compiled!

St. Justin Martyr, a second century apologist, makestheclaim for Christianitythat"Whatever things were rightly said among all men aretheproperty of usChristians."[13]
Justin espousesthebeliefthatboth Gentiles and Jews willbesavedonthebasis oftheir piety and holiness. He statesthat"Christ isthefirst-born of God, and we have declared above allthatHe istheWord (Logos) of whom every race of men were partakers; and those who lived according to reason are Christian."[14]
All peoples are able to participate inthe"spermatikos logos"or seed of reason: "For each man spoke well in proportion totheshare he had ofthespermatic word (reason disseminated among men), seeing what was related to it,"because "theseed of reason (theLogos) implanted in every race of men" makes God’s revelation accessible to all[15]
Thepre-existence oftheeternal Logos of God enables "alltheraces of men to participate" in God’s revelation.The"seed oftheLogos is innate in alltheraces of men and resides in all people." uniting humanity and making all "part oftheLogos."[16]

Saint John Chrysostom, inthefourth century, tells usthatGod is “not particular but He istheFather of all” and His providence bringsthe"nations" to salvation. TotheJews God gavethe*“written law” but tothenations He gavethe*"natural law,"thelaw innate in human conscience and reason.[17]

Here are a few examples I could drag up while at work, sorry I don’t have more time, but they were not alone

 

[snarflemike]

So for possibly 1 year the disciple, including the 12, had no life even though they believed in Jesus, until they ate the Eucharist?

That is the exact opposite of what I actually said.

Why are you trying to dance around what Jesus said. Did he lie in John 6:53?

 

[snarflemike]

So for possibly 1 year the disciple, including the 12, had no life even though they believed in Jesus, until they ate the Eucharist?

BTW, did anybody have “life” before Jesus’ death and resurrection?

Did any OT saints have “life” before Jesus’ death and resurrection?

 

[snarflemike]

Catholic teaching never taught this until.recently

So by that same logic, in the 16th century the Protestant reformation was false because “Christian teaching never taught this until recently.”

So which is it? Can’t have it both ways.

 

[Erick_Ybarra]

That is the exact opposite of what I actually said.

Why are you trying to dance around what Jesus said. Did he lie in John 6:53?

You said it was not accountable to them until he said it. Did he not say it in John 6? And if you are referring to the lords supper in the upper room, are you saying that at that point in time, none of the other 500 brothers had life yet? And that converts who were baptized and received the holy spirit were not saved until they had the Eucharist?

If someone died without the Eucharist, are they damned? No!

But you are damned if you do not repent and believe. These are the clear, unfiltered, words of Christ Jesus (mark 16)