Is this rejecting Christ ?

  • Thread starter Thread starter Erick_Ybarra
  • Start date Start date
Status
Not open for further replies.
But you see protestants, who have close enough doctrine to be saved, are at least believing what the thief on the cross confessed.
Who determines what is “close enough doctrine to be saved”?

What is it close enough to! Catholic?
Protestants who deny their lives, pick up their cross, and suffer for his name are at least believing what zacheus believed by repenting of his sin. Protestants still confess the 3 creeds of the church, most believe the doctrine of some of the early popes, and they confess the trinity and the message of repentance, faith, and the gift of the holy spirit
If I was to apply the narrow term of Protestants, then perhaps, but in the larger sense of non-catholic Christian, I would contest that some confess the creeds, some confess the trinity, some…etc…etc
If protestants are finally saved, it will be because they have grasped the essential truths of Jesus christ in order to be saved.
What is essential, and who determines what is essential?
Someone however who believes in the God Moldova, who sacrifices babies for blessings from God, and dies in thus worship is much different then Protestants. What a silly comparison.
First of all salvation is POSSIBLE, to those who follow grace, and grace moves towards love, if not in its fullness, then at least in natural law. So killing a baby, will never be an action moved by grace towards love.
Most protestants would accept Augustine’s logic. Do you think Augustine would have believed in papal infallibility?
Most, confessional protestants in the narrow term, those that call themselves protestants, which are non-catholic Christians, may not, so to say most is misleading!

Yes, I THINK Augustine would have submitted to the Church teaching and not relied on his own understanding. After all, he considered the Canon already closed due to The Council of Rome which was Presided over by Pope Damasus I.
 
We knowbwhat is essential because of what Jesus said. If you repent and believe you will be saved.
 
We knowbwhat is essential because of what Jesus said. If you repent and believe you will be saved.
And how can you be certain that God, at the moment of death for these nonChristians, does NOT give them the opportunity to repent and believe?

How can you be certain that they are rejecting JESUS if the Jesus they have been told of is a false Jesus?

Muslim A: Has been ‘told’ of Jesus. He is told that Jesus is a prophet, not God. He has also been told, via ‘internet search’ or casual conversation, of the Christian Jesus, but due to language issues and the imperfect understanding of the internet posts or the people in conversation, Muslim A still has no idea who Jesus REALLY is.

Now you tell me, how can Muslim A be said to reject Jesus **if he never knew Him? **

Muslim A does know of Allah, the “God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob”. Muslim A knows and loves this God. Muslim A tries to obey what he has been told is correct behavior in order to please God.

Muslim A, loving God, WOULD have loved Jesus if he had been given the chance to truly know who Jesus was, if he had been able to hear an intelligent and accurate description from people who themselves understood who Jesus was.

But Muslim A, despite trying his best to know and love God, as far as he knows the True God, never gets to know Jesus.

Do you think that despite Muslim A’s inability to accept a Jesus he did NOT truly understand, that God will refuse to save Him, or that God will not make Jesus manifest to this person who already ‘knows’ and loves God as ‘Father’ (and the Son and Spirit are One with the Father?)

Are you really trying to be less just and compassionate than God? Are you saying you absolutely are certain that 'these people" absolutely and knowingly reject Jesus? You know their minds and hearts from birth to death?

I really really wish you would address **what the Church teaches and not what you (wrongly) claim it teaches. **

The CHURCH has ALWAYS taught that Salvation is through Christ.

Anyone who is saved is saved through Christ.


**YOUR mistake, Erick, is thinking that because a person ‘appears’ to you to ‘reject’ Jesus (by ‘stubbornly’ staying a nonChristian of any persuasion), that is a ‘proof’ that he really DOES reject Jesus.
** You only see the appearance, but God sees the heart.**
**
If you’re so intent on doing what ‘Jesus says’, why not listen to Him, because HE spoke those words, didn’t He?
 
I understand that the church states that pagans can be saved only through Jesus Christ, I have never argued this point…it’s very odd that you keep persisting on this point.

My argument is that the Church teaches that Jesus is going to save a person who believes in pagan and idolatrous religion. In other words, these people are dying at their death believing in their own gods or god. Is this not a mortal sin?

And if they were to be remitted or excused from having to believe in the true God, what the Church is saying is that sinners of the gentiles can believe whatever they please but still, by heeding to the law of conscience, or maybe even not doing this, can inherit eternal life.

The minimum for salvation in every example of the Old and New testament has been confession and repentance toward the 1 true God. A forsaking of idols and a turning to serve the true God. And no, God is not going to allow himself to be served in the camps of idolatrous sacrifices. This is Old Testament Theology 101.
 
We knowbwhat is essential because of what Jesus said. If you repent and believe you will be saved.
How do we know what Jesus said this present day?

OK, So the** Gospel of Thomas**

70 Jesus said, "If you bring forth what is within you, what you have will save you. If you do not have that within you, what you do not have within you [will] kill you."

**Gospel of Mary **.

. . Will matter then be destroyed or not?

22)** The Savior said, All nature, all formations, all creatures exist in and with one another, and they will be resolved again into their own roots.
  1. For the nature of matter is resolved into the roots of its own nature alone.**
**The Secret book of James **

The Lord answered and said: "What is your merit when you do the will of the Father if it is not given to you by him as a gift, while you are tempted by Satan? But if you are oppressed by Satan and are persecuted and you do the Father’s will, I say that he will love you and will make you equal with me and will consider that you have become beloved through his providence according to your free choice.

Christ chose a social order to reveal Himself to mankind, that order, by grace, has written, discerned, and compiled scripture infallibly, because He chose her to be the pillar and bulwark of truth (1 Timothy 3:15) and through her, the manifold wisdom of God was made known (Ephesians 3:10) The wisdom that was previously hidden (1 Corinthians 2:7)
:highprayer:
 
There is a reason these books were not in the canon. The fathers of the church plus most of catholic theology has never consented to pagans being saved in their idolatry and ignorance if Jesus christ. Justin martyr may have only been the only exception and it is possible this is taken out of context.

I can see why catholics really don’t share their faith. Every ‘‘good’’ person is going to heaven by the grace if Jesus christ.

This is absurd for any Jew or reader if the new testament in the ancient world.
 
There is a reason these books were not in the canon. The fathers of the church plus most of catholic theology has never consented to pagans being saved in their idolatry and ignorance if Jesus christ. Justin martyr may have only been the only exception and it is possible this is taken out of context.

I can see why catholics really don’t share their faith. Every ‘‘good’’ person is going to heaven by the grace if Jesus christ.

This is absurd for any Jew or reader if the new testament in the ancient world.
Ok, lets look at the 18th century invention of invisible ignorance, **oh wait except Justin Martyr, who mentioned it around 150 A.D **

In case you forgot
** St.Justin Martyr**
We have been taught that Christ is the first-begotten of God, and we have declared him to be the Logos of which all mankind partakes [John 1:9]. Those, therefore, who lived according to reason [Greek, logos] were really Christians, even though they were thought to be atheists, such as, among the Greeks, Socrates, Heraclitus, and others like them. . . . Those who lived before Christ but did not live according to reason [logos] were wicked men, and enemies of Christ, and murderers of** those who did live according to reason [logos], whereas those who lived then or who live now according to reason [logos] are Christians.** Such as these can be confident and unafraid."

The invincibly ignorant would not include those who think that all religions are the same. That would be indifference. Jesus said, “I am the way” (John 14:6), not a way. The person who is invincibly ignorant honestly believes, though erroneously, that he is going the right way.

St. Augustine’s position is also consistent with Vatican II. "When we speak of within and without in relation to the Church, it is the position of the heart that we must consider, not that of the body…. All who are within [the Church] in heart are saved in the unity of the ark (On Baptism, Against the Donatists 5:28 [39] [A.D. 394]).

Yet St.Augustine would also argue that there is no salvation outside of the church.

**Clement of Rome, a contemporary of the Apostles, wrote, “Let us go through all generations and learn that in generation after generation the Master has given a place of repentance for those willing to turn to him. Those who repented for their sins, appeased God in praying, and received salvation, even though they were aliens to God” (Letter to the Corinthians, no. 7 [AD 95]).
**

St. Paul teaches that we are judged by our intentions. “Therefore do not pronounce judgment before the time, before the Lord comes, who will bring to light the things now hidden in darkness and will disclose the purposes of the heart. Then every man will receive his commendation from God” (1 Corinthians 4:5).

**Romans 2:13-16, “For it is not the hearers of the Law who are righteous before God, but the doers of the Law who will be justified. When Gentiles who have not the Law do by nature what the Law requires, they are a law to themselves, even though they do not have the Law. They show that what the Law requires is written on their hearts, while their conscience also bears witness and their conflicting thoughts accuse or perhaps excuse them on that day when, according to my gospel, God judges the secrets of men by Christ Jesus.”
**

St. Thomas Aquinas said one can obtain salvation without being actually baptized, on account of the person’s desire for baptism, which desire is the outcome of faith that works through charity, whereby God, Whose power is not tied to visible sacraments, sanctifies a person inwardly" (Summa Theologiae III, q.68, a.2)

There is a normative way to salvation through the Church and the graces she receives and dispenses through Christ our Lord in a sacramental economy He established!

Those that may be saved via a non-normative way, but by desire include protestants!

If you want to take the view of none being saved outside the Christian Faith, then you must include yourself and other non-catholic Christians, because the NORMATIVE way is through the Church Christ established, which is One, Holy Catholic, and Apostolic!

amazon.com/Salvation-Outside-Church-Catholic-Response/dp/0809133040
 
But why is it possible for unbaptized people to be saved? Because of a baptism of desire? Why would Aquinas allow for such an exception? Because they do not believe already? or because they do believe and want to be baptized? Does not Aquinas clearly assume these people believe in the message? The only thing prohibiting them is the Church.
 
Do you get all your religious thinking from stuff on YT? That’s one of the lousiest sources on the planet. Any crackpot with a computer can post anything that he wants and, as is the case of this video’s title, slant the thinking of others who are too dumb to do their own homework.

You should be doing your own homework too, investing in either one or both of these two authentic Catholic works in order to get correct information.

shop.catholic.com/media/catalog/product/cache/1/small_image/135x/9df78eab33525d08d6e5fb8d27136e95/c/a/catechism-pocket-edition.jpg Catechism of the Catholic Church, Pocket Edition
Code:
                                                                                                                      $8.95
shop.catholic.com/media/catalog/product/cache/1/small_image/135x/9df78eab33525d08d6e5fb8d27136e95/c/a/catechism-compendium.jpg Compendium To The Catechism Of The Catholic Church
Code:
                                                                                                                      $14.95
For instance, the catechism actually says:
I second that.
Get it from the horse’s mouth, as a manner of speaking.
If you have to reject the Church, do so for what she is proclaiming and not WHAT OTHERS SAY SHE IS PROCLAIMING. You owe yourself that much!
Read these books that my brother is directing you to and get back on the forum and fire away so that we all can benefit from the explanation others give at this forum based ON OFFICIAL CHURCH TEACHING.

God bless,
Kentcara2003(3rd Order SSCC)
 
Erick, do you belive the sins you confess are forgiven that very moment the priest gives you absolution? That there will be no further judgement for them?
 
But why is it possible for unbaptized people to be saved? Because of a baptism of desire? Why would Aquinas allow for such an exception? Because they do not believe already? or because they do believe and want to be baptized? Does not Aquinas clearly assume these people believe in the message? The only thing prohibiting them is the Church.
As pointed out many times there is the POSSIBILITY that those who are ignorant of the message MAY partake in the beatific vision.

It is not known IF they will or WHO will be saved in the end 🤷

If the NORMATIVE way is through the Church, then you are not entering in through it. So where does that lead you?

I can provide many rescorces to point out, those scizmatics, heretics…etc… will not enter into everlasting life in Christ, but everlasting torment! Maybe you should think that one over 🤷

Since you believe baptism now saves you, do unbaptized babies go to hell? How about the denominations that wait till an age of reason? How about the people who think that it is only an outward profession of an already inward change, and may not get baptized until their twenties? If all these people die without being baptized, where do they go? If you answer you don’t know, only God knows, and you trust in His mercy, then you just confirmed the Catholic position!

Here are some links to ponder that speak on how protestants are not Christians, and are going to hell.

This is obviously not my belief, but these sources reject invisible ignorance

traditioninaction.org/religious/m013rpProtestantsChristians.html

romancatholicism.org/jansenism/tradition-eens2.htm

mostholyfamilymonastery.com/Articles/st_alphonsus_history_of_heresies.php
 
Yes. All the saints are saved by faith. The unbelieving are damned (revelation 21-22)
 
Yes. All the saints are saved by faith. The unbelieving are damned (revelation 21-22)
Faith in what or who?

I hear many people talk of needing Jesus, but their Jesus is different from the Catholic Jesus 🤷 seems vey confusing.

The Catholic Jesus, gave us an infallible Church, a Miniterial priesthood, Sacraments, Himself Body, Blood, Soul and divinty in the Eucharist, He was born of a virgin who never had any other children of her own…etc…etc you get the picture
 
Yes. All the saints are saved by faith. The unbelieving are damned (revelation 21-22)
If there is a jew or a muslim who proves by his works he had more love towards God and his neighbour, are you going to be saved by your faith?
 
Show 1 example from the bible (though this is not our only source) that either shows or teaches that a person who is committed to a false idol or that is a pagan who can make it to heaven dying in that state.

Heck, Paul condemns the judaizers no? They were ‘‘Christian jews’’. Do they have a chance believing what they believe to die in their heresy?

Why does Paul pray that the Jews would be saved? (Rom 10:1-2). Does this not imply that they are not saved? And Paul teaches they are damned until they believe at the end.
 
Show 1 example from the bible (though this is not our only source) that either shows or teaches that a person who is committed to a false idol or that is a pagan who can make it to heaven dying in that state.

Heck, Paul condemns the judaizers no? They were ‘‘Christian jews’’. Do they have a chance believing what they believe to die in their heresy?

Why does Paul pray that the Jews would be saved? (Rom 10:1-2). Does this not imply that they are not saved? And Paul teaches they are damned until they believe at the end.
You didn’t answer my question…
 
Show 1 example from the bible (though this is not our only source) that either shows or teaches that a person who is committed to a false idol or that is a pagan who can make it to heaven dying in that state.

Heck, Paul condemns the judaizers no? They were ‘‘Christian jews’’. Do they have a chance believing what they believe to die in their heresy?

Why does Paul pray that the Jews would be saved? (Rom 10:1-2). Does this not imply that they are not saved? And Paul teaches they are damned until they believe at the end.
Romans 2:13-16, “For it is not the hearers of the Law who are righteous before God, but the doers of the Law who will be justified. **When Gentiles who have not the Law do by nature what the Law requires, they are a law to themselves, even though they do not have the Law. They show that what the Law requires is written on their hearts, while their conscience also bears witness and their conflicting thoughts accuse or perhaps excuse them on that day when, according to my gospel, God judges the secrets of men by Christ Jesus.” **

St John Chrysostom commentary on Romans 2
google.com/url?sa=t&source=web&cd=1&ved=0CCIQFjAA&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.documentacatholicaomnia.eu%2F03d%2F0345-0407%2C_Iohannes_Chrysostomus%2C_Homilies_on_The_Epistle_To_The_Romans%2C_EN.pdf&ei=KiZjUN4upsCLAv_BgLAH&usg=AFQjCNFU0-Q6scASKOWlSeUnsLU0Kx-gEg
 
Your missing the doctrine of repentance in Romans 2:4. This involves turning to the one God whose been patient and longsuffering. Both the Jews and Greeks are amassing more and more wrath because of their idolatry (Romans 1:18-31) and the Jews by practicing the same things (2:1-3).

The goodness of which God leads men to repentance? The myriad idols of idol paganism described in 1:18-32???

The judgement day will note the good doing if those who repented (rom 2:4) not towards any god hut the true one.

To come out of Romans 1-3 concluding that Paul, despite his description of the deprivation of idolatry can still be saved nonetheless is intellectual untenableuntenable
 
Your missing the doctrine of repentance in Romans 2:4. This involves turning to the one God whose been patient and longsuffering. Both the Jews and Greeks are amassing more and more wrath because of their idolatry (Romans 1:18-31) and the Jews by practicing the same things (2:1-3).

The goodness of which God leads men to repentance? The myriad idols of idol paganism described in 1:18-32???

The judgement day will note the good doing if those who repented (rom 2:4) not towards any god hut the true one.

To come out of Romans 1-3 concluding that Paul, despite his description of the deprivation of idolatry can still be saved nonetheless is intellectual untenableuntenable
You stil do not answer my question…
And 100% sure, one who loves God and loves his neighbour feels sorrow for his sins.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top