Is this rejecting Christ ?

[Erick_Ybarra]

But a pagan Hindu (rom 1:18-31) does not operate by that framework. If he wants forgiveness he goes to the gods and reforms his life.

Don’t you see? Paul is not speaking about a general reform of life. Repentance in Romans 2:4 is specifically turning to obey the true God whom they offended, not molek, Baal, demonic idols, etc, etc

 

[Ion]

The answer to my question is there is no answer to it because you can’t know it.
I think an analogy would explain it: two go in straight oppposite directions but becaus the Earth is round, they can end up at the same point.
Their way is wrong, but that doesn’t mean there is nobody who is going to make it.

 

[steve_b]

Where is the historic truth that salvation is not obtained through idolatry?

Who is claiming salvation is obtained through idolotry?
EY:

Is Idolatry not a sin anymore?

Absolutely
EY:

And if the true God is somehow hidden and implicit in these other religions, why does God have such a big problem with it in the old testament?

The world is a mission field. If God can come to us when collectively we are up to our eyeballs in sin and ignorance, His Church needs to do the same, and evangelize and educate the world.
EY:

The God of Israel called Israel an unfaithful wife because she went to be with the other religions. But if God is in these religions, it would not be a divorce, do you see?

Using your example, Isreal was given revelation from God. They had Moses and the prophets. God took them out of the darkness. As a result, Isreal had the truth but some turned from it, THAT’S a different story than one who doesn’t have those truths at all…agreed?

So let’s make another comparison.

The Catholic Church was established by Jesus. All the truth is contained in the Catholic Church. That’s the Church Jesus gave all His promises to. Scripture was written in, by and for the Catholic Church.

in the 16th century, Protestants rebelled against the Church Jesus established, and divided from the Church. They left what God revealed. THAT’S a serious problem…agreed? The NT condemned this kind of activity in the 1st century [passages listed below]. The condemnation of division in scripture not only has no time limit, but as Jesus said, [paraphrased] if what Jesus builds goes in all kinds of disaray, and confusions, away from what He promised to build, it makes Jesus look foolish to the world, because the world observes, that He can’t finish building what He started.

***[Gal 5: 19…]*19 The acts of the sinful nature are obvious: sexual immorality, impurity and debauchery; 20 idolatry and witchcraft; hatred, discord, jealousy, fits of rage, selfish ambition, dissensions, factions 21 and envy; drunkenness, orgies, and the like. I warn you, as I did before, that those who live like this will not inherit the kingdom of God.

[Rom 16:] 17 I urge you, brothers, to watch out for those who cause divisions and put obstacles in your way that are contrary to the teaching you have learned. Keep away from them. 18 For such people are not serving our Lord Christ, but their own appetites. By smooth talk and flattery they deceive the minds of naive people. 19 Everyone has heard about your obedience, so I am full of joy over you; but I want you to be wise about what is good, and innocent about what is evil. 20 The God of peace will soon crush Satan under your feet.

**[Lk 14:]**28 For which of you, desiring to build a tower, does not first sit down and count the cost, whether he has enough to complete it? 29 Otherwise, when he has laid a foundation, and is not able to finish, all who see it begin to mock him, 30 saying, ‘This man began to build, and was not able to finish.’

So, what say you about all this? Staying with the title of the thread, is all this division and conflict in christianity, caused by those serving themselves rather than Our Lord, rejecting Christ?

 

[Ion]

The answer to my question is there is no answer to it because you can’t know it.
I think an analogy would explain it: two go in straight oppposite directions but becaus the Earth is round, they can end up at the same point.
Their way is wrong, but that doesn’t mean there is nobody who is going to make it.

I would say also that for connecting 2 points on Earth, all the ways look straight. We have the shortest one, for us Christ brought it “at hand”.

 

[Erick_Ybarra]

So all roads eventually lead to Rome?

Pagan religion is in the practice of idolatry right? Will they not he judged for this? They die in mortal

 

[Ion]

So all roads eventually lead to Rome?

Pagan religion is in the practice of idolatry right? Will they not he judged for this? They die in mortal

You are right. But for God everything is possible, even to get a camel through the eye of a needle

 

[Erick_Ybarra]

Not true. God cannot lie. Why would not christ save the rich man IN his sin? Is that possible? If all things are possible with God then why doesn’t he just save the rich man in his coveteousness? That’s precisely which Jesus said all things are possible with God because God can change him and bring him to the truth. Its already assumed the rich young ruler was a Jew, therefore a change of belief is not required

 

[Ion]

Not true. God cannot lie. Why would not christ save the rich man IN his sin? Is that possible? If all things are possible with God then why doesn’t he just save the rich man in his coveteousness? That’s precisely which Jesus said all things are possible with God because God can change him and bring him to the truth. Its already assumed the rich young ruler was a Jew, therefore a change of belief is not required

He is God…He paid the price for our salvation…How does He save the rich? I don’t know. I don’t know how He pass a camel through the eye of a needle, either.

 

[TarkanAttila]

But a pagan Hindu (rom 1:18-31) does not operate by that framework. If he wants forgiveness he goes to the gods and reforms his life.

Don’t you see? Paul is not speaking about a general reform of life. Repentance in Romans 2:4 is specifically turning to obey the true God whom they offended, not molek, Baal, demonic idols, etc, etc

How can you turn to God if you do not believe He exists?

Half the battle is getting people to know there is a God above all the gods out there.

 

[onemangang]

Your missing the doctrine of repentance in Romans 2:4. This involves turning to the one God whose been patient and longsuffering. Both the Jews and Greeks are amassing more and more wrath because of their idolatry (Romans 1:18-31) and the Jews by practicing the same things (2:1-3).

The goodness of which God leads men to repentance? The myriad idols of idol paganism described in 1:18-32???

The judgement day will note the good doing if those who repented (rom 2:4) not towards any god hut the true one.

To come out of Romans 1-3 concluding that Paul, despite his description of the deprivation of idolatry can still be saved nonetheless is intellectual untenableuntenable

Do I go with your personal interpretation or the Pope, the Church, Catholics who say other wise

I’ll start with St.John Chrysostom
[H]e shows not only the equality of the Jew and the Gentile, but that the Jew was even much burdened by the gift of the Law. For the Gentile is judged without law. But this ‘without law’ (Gr. lawlessly) here expresses not the worse plight but the easier, that is, he has not the Law to accuse him. For ‘without law’ (that is, without the condemnation arising from it), is he condemned solely from the reasonings of nature, but the Jew, ‘in the Law,’ that is, with nature and the Law too to accuse him. For the greater the attention he enjoyed, the greater the punishment he will suffer. See how much greater is the necessity which he lays upon the Jews of a speedy recourse to grace! For in that they said, they needed not grace, being justified by the Law, he shows that they need it more than the Gentiles, considering they are liable to be punished more…. For if it is by theLawyou claim to besaved, in this respect, says he, theGentilewillstand before you,when seen to be a doer of what is written in theLaw. And how is it possible (one may say) for one who has not heard to be a doer? Not this only, he says, is possible, but what is much more even than this.*For not only is it possible without hearing to be a doer, but even with hearing not to be so.”

Romans 2:14 do by nature:**Illuminated by natural reason, they distinguish between what should be done and what should be avoided, which the law also did. (Origen)

*2:15-16**He asserts that there is a mental debate when we decide by lengthy deliberation what we ought to do and what we ought not to do, and that we should be judged according to this on the day of the Lord, because it proves that we were not ignorant of good or evil. Or: On the day of judgement our conscience and our thoughts shall lie before our eyes like lessons of history to be learnt; they will either accuse us or in fact excuse us. (Pelagius)

Haydock study bible
Romans 2: 14-15.**"When the Gentiles…do by nature,"or naturally, that is, without having received any written law,"these men are a law to themselves,“and have it"written in their hearts,”*as to the existence of a God, and their reason tells them, that many sins are unlawful: they may also do some actions that are morally good, as by giving alms to relieve the poor, honouring their parents, &c. not that these actions, morally good, will suffice for their justification of themselves, or make them deserve a supernatural reward in the kingdom of heaven; but God, out of his infinite mercy, will give them some supernatural graces, by which they come to know, and believe, that he will reward their souls for eternity.

litteralchristianlibrary.wetpaint.com/page/Letters+of+St.+Paul

books.google.com/books?id=KXny7l1jfBEC&pg=RA1-PA19&lpg=PP1&dq=ancient+christian+ambrosiaster&lr=&as_brr=3&output=html_text

 

[Erick_Ybarra]

I don’t deny anything these authors wrote.

But where do you get the idea that pagan idolaters who are described in Romans 1 fit inti the justification on the final day of judgment? They certainly did not obey the LORD.

Doesn’t Paul go on to quote some if the ten commandments, one is idolatry (Romans 2:17-25). If as St. Paul says in Romans 1, mankind is without excuse because they know about God yet refuse to obey him and make creatures as their God. PAUL SAYS THAT IDOLATERS ARE WITHOUT ECXUSE (Romans 1:18-24). If they remain belieiving any God or gods which are not the true God than they are without excuse and will be punished.

The Jews are without excuse according to Paul (rom 10:17-20). They will not be justified on the final day of judgment if the fail to believe that Jesus, who was crucified, is their Messiah.

 

[onemangang]

But a pagan Hindu (rom 1:18-31) does not operate by that framework. If he wants forgiveness he goes to the gods and reforms his life.

Don’t you see? Paul is not speaking about a general reform of life. Repentance in Romans 2:4 is specifically turning to obey the true God whom they offended, not molek, Baal, demonic idols, etc, etc

Nobody is claiming that a Hindu pagan will be saved BECAUSE of his\her religion. What is being said that a “Hindu pagan” MAY be saved in the end DESPITE their religion. It is POSSIBLE that grace is at work in their HEARTS moving them towards love. IF they follow the grace in their hearts towards love, then it would be God who is calling them, because God is Love and desires non should perish.

What is the NORMATIVE way one may be saved? What do the early Church Fathers say about scismatics and heretics that separate themselves from the Church big C?

 

[onemangang]

I don’t deny anything these authors wrote.

But where do you get the idea that pagan idolaters who are described in Romans 1 fit inti the justification on the final day of judgment? They certainly did not obey the LORD

Neither do you (fully) just by separating yourself from the Church. What is to become of all those unbaptized people who profess Christ, but were raised in a tradition that doesn’t view baptism as necessary, so they never were baptized?

Doesn’t Paul go on to quote some if the ten commandments, one is idolatry (Romans 2:17-25). If as St. Paul says in Romans 1, mankind is without excuse because they know about God yet refuse to obey him and make creatures as their God. PAUL SAYS THAT IDOLATERS ARE WITHOUT ECXUSE (Romans 1:18-24). If they remain belieiving any God or gods which are not the true God than they are without excuse and will be punished.

The Jews are without excuse according to Paul (rom 10:17-20). They will not be justified on the final day of judgment if the fail to believe that Jesus, who was crucified, is their Messiah.

You say you agree with what the ECF have said, yet you say just the opposite, or you just fail to understand what has been said over and over again, THEY (other religions). Are NOT saved by following their religion, but MAY in the end be SAVED BY GRACE

 

[Erick_Ybarra]

But the scripture of Romans 2 which is what was put forward as teaching that pagans will enter the kingdom of god. Only teaches those who are repentant classify those who will be justified.

And I never said they would be saved by their idolatry. Its extremely weird that you keep reiterating this point. I have understood always that catholics believe they may be saved apart from their sin and works by grace in christ.

What I’m asking is one example or teaching in scripture that shows this, knowing that it is not our final authority

 

[Contarini]

I don’t understand this.

The Islamic faith teaches that Jesus is not the son of God. The Scripture says anyone who does not believe in the son of God is condemned.

And the Church clarifies that this refers to those who know who Jesus is and refuse to believe.

That’s what the Church is for, at least in part.

Also, it’s not at all clear that Muslims understand what we mean by “son of God.” Arguably, they may be quite correct in rejecting the blasphemous nonsense which they mistakenly think we believe.

Edwin

 

[steve_b]

So all roads eventually lead to Rome?

Pagan religion is in the practice of idolatry right? Will they not he judged for this? They die in mortal

Pagans and idolators who eventually are led to Rome will no longer be pagans and idolators.

The only reason ignorance was brought up is because one can’t be held responsible for what one doesn’t know, providing what isn’t known is purely innocent on their part, and is not a fault by deliberate act of their own. i.e. taking little or no effort or interest to find the truth. Grace is available to everyone, the good and the bad. That’s because God desires all to be saved and come to the knowledge of truth.[1 Tim 2:4] yes even pagans, idolators, etc etc etc you name the group. Therefore He gives everyone the ability i.e. desire to come to this truth, but He won’t force anyone to come to the truth. If they refuse, THEN they refuse grace freely given them, so they can’t claim not guilty by reason of ignorance. They will then be culpable for what they do.

 

[Erick_Ybarra]

No God does not provide the means for everyone to be saved everywhere at all times.

How does a child in the communities of the pagans who worshiped molek have the means of grace for salvation otherthan repenting from believing in false idols and worshipping turbine true God, whose rejection is accountable to all men.

You understand that right? Paul says all pagans everywhere are without excuse to their unbelief in the truth…

 

[shocktrooper]

That’s because God desires all to be saved and come to the knowledge of truth.[1 Tim 2:4] yes even pagans, idolators, etc etc etc you name the group. Therefore He gives everyone the ability i.e. desire to come to this truth, but He won’t force anyone to come to the truth. If they refuse, THEN they refuse grace freely given them, so they can’t claim not guilty by reason of ignorance. They will then be culpable for what they do.

Steve, this seems to be the point of our Protestant friend. If God wills that everyone comes to the Truth, Jesus whom is the Truth, then we must admit that everyone has the ability to do so as you yourself claim above, regardless of their upbringing. Ultimately, one has to choose. The “invincible ignorance” card is played way too often, IMO. I believe the Church’s teaching on Invincible Ignorance and Baptism of Desire but I think both have been hijacked by those that don’t want to admit that other faiths lead souls to Hell if that faith practices idolatry or does not worship the Trinity. In today’s day and age, you would be hard pressed to find a Jew that has not heard of Jesus and the Christian truth of Him. Does it matter if they are tainted by a lie thrusted upon them when growing up; I think not. Just as a Catholic has no valid reason to claim that the world lied to him about moral truths and could not overcome it.

As a Catholic, I kind of struggle with this since many other Catholics will say that we don’t need to convert the Jews because they are saved under the OT Covenant. This is very frustrating and kills the reason to preach the Gospel. No one is saved under the OT Covenant. Jews must accept Christ for salvation, just as everyone else, correct? The same arguments are made for Muslims, since they “worship the one true God”. And on and on and on.

I have heard many Saints talk about the evils that temp a soul at death and that a person that lived their life in a lie and against God will not overcome that at death, but just the opposite happens. This is why we are to pray for Final Perseverance or a Holy Death.

To me, this wishy washy teaching (and I don’t mean the one by Mother Church) is a product of lack of faith, lack of trust in God and His teachings when He clearly lays out the criteria for salvation. A loop hole is created so that relativism can creep in. It seems like this teaching can fall into the Sin of Human Respect since it primarily exists to not offend others. The Church clearly says that one must have “INVINCIBLE IGNORANCE”, meaning nothing could overcome it. One’s pride, allegiance to a heritage, apathy or sloth is a choice that does not fall under this doctrine since all are sins if done against God and Truth.

Again, my understanding is that Baptism of Desire applies to those that have never heard the Gospel preached to them, but not those who have heard it and rejected it because their hearts were not convinced due to some action or flaw in the person preaching it. Why else would Christ say this…“Whoever causes one of these little ones who believe in me to sin, it would be better for him if a great millstone were put around his neck and he were thrown into the sea.”, if the person being scandalized was not “really” lead astray and was saved anyway?

Can you help me better understand by addressing my concerns specifically what Invincible Ignorance and Baptism of Desire means according to Scripture and Tradition and not just the 1950+ thought on them? God bless!

Thanks.

 

[Erick_Ybarra]

Yes and also explain how invincible ignorance relates to Paul allowing no excusebto pagan idolaters in Romans 1 on the basis that all know the true God

 

[TarkanAttila]

No God does not provide the means for everyone to be saved everywhere at all times.

How does a child in the communities of the pagans who worshiped molek have the means of grace for salvation otherthan repenting from believing in false idols and worshipping turbine true God, whose rejection is accountable to all men.

You understand that right? Paul says all pagans everywhere are without excuse to their unbelief in the truth…

You’re not serious, are you?

Again, how can you repent from false gods if you do not know they are false? How do you know they know the real God? How can they turn to the real God if they do not know Him?

In any case, Erick, it’s irrelevant to you whether a pagan does or does not go to Heaven despite being or not being taught the Gospel. You are charged, by Jesus, who said “God and make disciples of all nations, baptising in the name of the Father, the Son, and the Holy Ghost” to mission to them.

Now, whether they become Christian or not is not in your hands. That is God’s work to do, not yours. But it is not your job to judge whether a pagan has gone to Hell or not. It’s your job to judge their bad actions. But not their intentions, because you do not know them. Only God knows where all our non-Christian and non-Catholic brothers and sisters are.

In short: stop judging whether a pagan has gone to Hell for his action of rejecting Christ, because you do not know why he rejected Christ. You have no right to judge. That is God’s job. YOUR job is to do as much as you can to lead them to Christ. If YOU don’t do that, YOU will go to Hell.