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TheOldColonel
Guest
I’ve made no such claim. Yet, you persist in that accusation. Explain yourself, soldier. 
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ProdglArchitect
Guest
I have, repeatedly, and I won’t again after this, so please pay really close attention.
The argument you are putting forward, the position that you have repeated over and over again, the concept that you are supporting though your words, is what’s known as universalism, and it is condemned by the Church.
Despite what you seem to think, you have been making claims and supporting a position this entire time. The fact that you don’t seem to understand that boggles me, but it’s not worth any more of my time or thought.
I literally cannot state it any plainer than that. And with that, I’m done.
The argument you are putting forward, the position that you have repeated over and over again, the concept that you are supporting though your words, is what’s known as universalism, and it is condemned by the Church.
Despite what you seem to think, you have been making claims and supporting a position this entire time. The fact that you don’t seem to understand that boggles me, but it’s not worth any more of my time or thought.
I literally cannot state it any plainer than that. And with that, I’m done.
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TheOldColonel
Guest
If I’ve stated any position, then I challenge you to quote me. Surely, you can do this quite easily unless it is your real aim is to merely put words in other people’s mouths. How’s that for paying attention? 
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ProdglArchitect
Guest
I will grant that you have not officially stated an opinion, in that you have not, word for word, written it out.
However, you have repeatedly questioned both our positions and intentions in such a way as to indicate that you are supporting the OPs stance of universalism.
Essentially, you are winning on a technicality, while also utterly failing to address any of the myriad of points that have been made against the O and your own questions.
Whatever, like I said, it’s not worth my effort anymore. If you don’t agree with the OP, then why are you arguing for him so much? If you do agree with him, then be a man and admit it.
However, you have repeatedly questioned both our positions and intentions in such a way as to indicate that you are supporting the OPs stance of universalism.
Essentially, you are winning on a technicality, while also utterly failing to address any of the myriad of points that have been made against the O and your own questions.
Whatever, like I said, it’s not worth my effort anymore. If you don’t agree with the OP, then why are you arguing for him so much? If you do agree with him, then be a man and admit it.
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TheOldColonel
Guest
Then, exactly why are you arguing with me? Do you do this to others as well?
BTW the OP made no post in support of universalism and like me stated no such position. The OP simply posted and article from a priest and is now being accused by you of being a “universalist.” You seem a little confused regarding what has actually been posted and by whom. Now who’s not paying attention?
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ZMystiCat
Guest
As far as I’m aware, the Catholic Church has not declared definitively whether or not the fire is literal, and I’ve read some argue that it is illogical to think that it is since fire cannot burn souls.
While those might play a factor, I’m not sure that can be deemed as punishment. Any torment coming from other free beings would certainly not be God-induced punishment.
I’m actually not sure it is an Evangelical position. I’ve heard some claim that demons torture the damned, but many also dismiss the idea, believing the demons to be fellow prisoners rather than torturers.
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Gorgias
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Pot, meet kettle.
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TheOldColonel
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Looks like you’re changing your view.
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poche
Guest
those who don’t believe in the existence of Hell are those most likely to go there. - St Alphonsus Ligouri.
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noactionreaction
Guest
Well if his belief in universalism is flawed/not Church teaching/heresy then this will impact upon his pastoral care. I would therefore suggest that he be re aquainted with and accepts what the Church actually teaches and until that point his involvement in any formation classes/1st Holy Communion/Confirmation/RCIA etc be curtailed
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TheOldColonel
Guest
Sounds like you’re being a bit reactive. Are you really suggesting that any priest with at least an M. Div. is somehow unaware of Church teaching?
You are essentially saying he should be banned from teaching ministry, a very public humiliation. Would not a more humble and charitable approach be more desirable towards a brother in Christ?
You are essentially saying he should be banned from teaching ministry, a very public humiliation. Would not a more humble and charitable approach be more desirable towards a brother in Christ?
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noactionreaction
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I never said he was unaware of Church teaching just that he chooses to ignore it, as for public humiliation surely that is preferable to leading the faithful astray with him to the hell he doesn’t believe exists
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TheOldColonel
Guest
Yet, any priest and any Catholic is allowed to engage in theological speculation on matters not spoken definitively by the church. Indeed, even seminarians do as much in class and are academically rewarded for such critical thinking skills.
How would the Catholic Theological Tradition have developed into what it is today if not for such intellectual freedom and activity among our scholars? Some such speculations have resulted in major leaps forward in understanding the Deposit of Faith. St. Thomas Aquinas’ speculative works were a source of much debate for centuries before being officially accepted by the Church. Expressions of intellectual freedom are vital if the ship of the Church is to be kept off the perilous rocks of radicalism, fanaticism and fundamentalism. We do not have to look far in history to see what happens to religions where such freedom is oppressed.
If you examine your own post of the priest’s article, you’ll see that the priest at no time publicly denied the existence of Hell. He merely posits the possibility that it might be devoid of human beings. Do you really think that such a possibility has not at least been pondered, or even hoped for, by the greatest minds of the Church over the centuries, even by popes?
So I must ask, why make the false accusation of "heresy’ against this man of God and then propose career ending punishment for him? Because he holds speculative and non-heretical opinions contrary to yours, is no respect due him? Is he really deserving of such derision by one possessing none of his education, training and experience? Isn’t that reaction a bit over the top?
Have you considered simply talking to him? Who knows? He might have some valuable spiritual advice for you.
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1Lord1Faith
Guest
Taking it further?..but not discussing it with the priest himself first? It seems like you’re skipping an important step in “taking it further”.
Anyway, I don’t see any problem with what this priest wrote. He isn’t saying that hell doesn’t exist. I don’t even think he is saying that ‘hell isnt eternal’; whatever that would mean anyway, I don’t know.
He does say:
“How long is ‘eventually’or ‘eternity’- who knows? Biblically, eternity is not forever and ever, but has deeper meanings, which can be explained another time.”
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Mark121359
Well-known member
People refuse to accept the reality of hell, because nothing here on earth comes remotely close in comparison to it. And no theologian comes remotely close in fully conveying the harsh reality of it! Consider if you will, one who commits a heinous crime, and gets sentenced to life without parole. As incomprehensible as this may seem, his life behind bars was an absolute paradise compared to the eternal damnation of hell. And that is hard for many to wrap their minds around. God could never permit such an unspeakable eternal sentence they tell themselves, and so they dismiss it. (See link below.)
But no one spoke of, or taught on Hell and Judgment more than Jesus. Time and time again in Sacred Scripture, He warns and warns about the reality of hell. You have to ask yourself. If you won’t believe His words, He who is the founder of the Catholic Church, just who would you believe? No one on this forum, no theologian, no saint, nor church document could ever, ever possibly convince you. All in all, a very unenviable position to be in!
www.ncronline.org
But no one spoke of, or taught on Hell and Judgment more than Jesus. Time and time again in Sacred Scripture, He warns and warns about the reality of hell. You have to ask yourself. If you won’t believe His words, He who is the founder of the Catholic Church, just who would you believe? No one on this forum, no theologian, no saint, nor church document could ever, ever possibly convince you. All in all, a very unenviable position to be in!
Debunking the myth of hell
I’m writing about hell because it is an unthinkable, horrible, destructive concept that can’t possibly be true. I frankly can’t even imagine how anyone came up with something so horrific. Could any wrong merit the terrible pain of burning in fire, while fully conscious, for a week or a year, m
www.ncronline.org
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Start
Guest
Padre Pio said something similar too.
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donvabeach
Guest
I for one have a serious problem, in general, with the concept of eternal damnation…of burning in hell forever. How does one conclude that a loving God would condemn a person, who may have committed some mortal sins over 50 or 60 years…to trillions and trillions and trillions of years suffering in the fires of hell? What kind of a God would do that? For missing Mass? For eating meat during Lent? To even looking at naked women online?
To my finite mind…it makes no sense…and I am having major doubts about the entire concept of heaven and hell because of it. Any thoughts?
To my finite mind…it makes no sense…and I am having major doubts about the entire concept of heaven and hell because of it. Any thoughts?
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ChristMyLife
Guest
Every single Church Father who spoke about Judas concurred he was in hell.
Judas is in hell, IMO. And I feel confident the dozens of Church Fathers who were filled with the Holy Ghost and said the same thing were not all in error.
Universal salvation or apokatastasis is a condemned heresy.
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ChristMyLife
Guest
It’s got to do with willful separation from God.
Those who live in this life apart from God and not wanting anything to do with God are not forced to spend eternity with God - they are given the fruit of their own free will and desire - to remain separate from God.
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Fauken
Guest
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