Is This the Death of the Catholic Church in Ireland?

[ProVobis]

No but the early Christian fathers adopted his moral code. See De Officiis (Regarding Civic Duties).

Even St John Paul II praised him.

 

[dvdjs]

So you cannot claim him as a church father

Where was he claimed to be a church father?

 

[SnowRose]

Se post above

 

[dvdjs]

Se post above

I have looked over the posts in thread back to the beginning.
The idea of limiting the discussion to church fathers (and the “nice try” barb) seems to have have out of the blue.

 

[SnowRose]

The ’nice try’ was for using Cicero as the source for Christian fathers quoting/reasoning.
You really can’t have it both ways.

(I’m not pro-abortion. But I’m virulently anti-stupid arguments)

 

[dvdjs]

But I’m virulently anti-stupid arguments

I don’t think that you are.

Cicero was brought up in post 61 in response to this:

I agree, all I’ve seen on social media is comments like “Ireland needs to come out of the dark ages” “needs to progress” etc when will this rubbish end? So naive and easily lead it’s beyond belief.

which responded to this early post responding to the OP.

This is so depressing. How can they know what abortion is and yet repeal the eighth amendment. They were a beacon of pro-life conviction in the world and they have now thrown away the lives of thousands of children to look hip and progressive. Pathetic. I am so tired of losing legally and socially on every moral issue. When will it end? Ireland is dead to me.

Not a word about church fathers.
In fact the poster appeared to be making a point that anti-abortion perspectives go back beyond the dark ages".

 

[niceatheist]

Because people are just morons, and whomever shouts the loudest wins.

This is how democracy dies, when a certain segment of the population develops sufficient contempt for government of the people.

Look, people vote in ways that will shock and anger me. But part of the democratic process is accepting defeat, and using the democratic process to overturn it. But start from a position of respect for the process and for your fellow citizens. Believe me it’s hard and I don’t always live up to the ideal, but I do try

 

[RCIAGraduate]

I’m going to try and play the eternal optimist and point out that while the Eighth has been repealed, it doesn’t necessarily mean wanton abortion, I understand the trend is going for 12 weeks but theoretically, couldn’t abortion only be permitted in cases like rape, incest or exclusively life of the mother?

On the flip-side, it appears that while severely discourage and down, campaigns like “Save the Eighth” and “Cherish All Children Equally” should hunker down and fight the “good fight” like the US Pro-Life movement (speaking if pro-life movements, how is the UK’s doing), the challenge is getting the 1 in 10 millennial voters (Ireland’s pro-life at the moment) who voted no to get actively involved in the cause, they’ll need all the help they can get.

And public opinion to an extent can be fickle, in the ensuing decades, let’s hope hearts and minds can be changed and swayed. For instance, in the US, many of its ardent pro-lifers were originally fro m the abortion camp (i.e Dr. Nathanson and Abby Johnson).

 

[_Abyssinia]

I can’t believe the sight I’m seeing in the coverage of Ireland of people actually seem to be celebrating this vote:

https://twitter.com/x/status/1000397142278586373

I’m absolutely sickened. There is a sickness in such a culture where people would celebrate this. Whatever your view on abortion, who comes out of abortion feeling happy and joyful? Some women may feel relieved, but I don’t think anyone would ever feel happy. I think that women who have had their child aborted feel the loss. And people are out in Ireland celebrating this vote? Truly sickening.

 

[dvdjs]

Look, people vote in ways that will shock and anger me. But part of the democratic process is accepting defeat, and using the democratic process to overturn it. But start from a position of respect for the process and for your fellow citizens. Believe me it’s hard and I don’t always live up to the ideal, but I do try

Can Democracy survive the internet?

 

[exnihilo]

I’m absolutely sickened. There is a sickness in such a culture where people would celebrate this. Whatever your view on abortion, who comes out of abortion feeling happy and joyful? Some women may feel relieved, but I don’t think anyone would ever feel happy. We know the studies that have been done showing the psychological problems after abortion that have been seen in many women. And people are out in Ireland celebrating this vote? Truly sickening.

I don’t know. If you think it is good then you would celebrate it. If you think it is bad you wouldn’t be for legalizing it. It is sick, but I’m not surprised at the celebration. I think the worst people are those who recognize it is bad but compromise with the idea it should be ‘rare’.

 

[_Abyssinia]

It is worth remembering that although Save the 8th lost this vote, there were many, many people that marched for the campaign to Save the 8th:

Not all is lost. I hope there are aspiring politicians within this group of people who will work to protect and defend life if they take office.

 

[TheLittleLady]

In my opinion, the folks who have done all the things you mention (I was out there leading all of that in my county for years) have made two mistakes.

First, for four decades we have been okay with politicians who promise what they do not/cannot deliver, we have bought the “incrementalism” line, we have been okay with “lesser evil”. I, for one, am done with that. In my lifetime I will never again vote for any politician who claims to be Pro Life yet does not extend that belief from conception until natural death. I will not vote for a Loophole Larry.

Second, we have painted ourselves into a corner where we appear to the world (and sadly, some people actually feel!) that stopping abortion is all it is about. We fail to see the mother in crisis, the family in crisis, the community in crisis. If we create a space where a woman in crisis feels loved and supported and protected, we CAN change the hearts and minds. Pro Lifers should be seen as the most pro-woman group instead of the standing on a corner, red faced, angry tears screaming “murderer!”

 

[F_Marturana]

I “liked” your post.

I also want to thank you for posting it.

I agree completely.

 

[Cruciferi]

I think we’ve done all that we can do. The current state of the world won’t last forever; however, I don’t see it changing peacefully or without great strife.

 

[glencor63]

In Ireland and Quebec the Catholic church was extremely authoritarian and autocratic. The vote in Ireland and The Quiet Revolution in Quebec is a rejection of a state church. The Catholic church should teach the faith. People have free will to reject or accept its teachings. The Catholic church has to come to terms with the reality that even with thorough catechesis people still say no.

 

[Cruciferi]

The Catholic church has to come to terms with the reality that even with thorough catechesis people still say no

Woe to them, for they will not be able to plead ignorance before the King.

2 Timothy 4:4

“They will turn their ears away from the truth and turn aside to myths.”

 

[niceatheist]

Invective and extreme partisanship has been a part of democratic politics since the beginning. If democracy could survive the Know Nothings, it can survive the internet.

 

[dvdjs]

Invective and extreme partisanship

But the ease of identifying those susceptible to fake news and mass communicating tailored fake news to them - that is new. We have people here living in disjoint fact worlds, happy to dismiss news from any source, no matter the actual track record, that does not match preconceptions. Its often the first line of argument - skip the facts and go right to talk of bias no matter how strained.

In the long term more and better education would help; but it is not clear how we get through the short term.

 

[Carmel]

 I  agree with  you  about  the  scandals-  but  that  is  still not  a reason  to  vote  for  abortion !

Anyone who votes for abortion has no moral compass. Why blame it on the Church ?
I’m older generation Irish and had relatives and friends who were priests and nuns. Most, but not all of them dedicated their lives to the service of God abroad and their lives were very fulfilled and faithful.
I believe the Irish Church will recover.