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FAB
Guest
Many things are done out of ignorance not out of disrespect. I certan she was chastised, and also forgiven, that is our way.
Peace,
FAB
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Peace,
FAB
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Lycorth
Guest
Amen to every word! Vatican II never called for what we see now - give 'em an inch and they will take a mile, as the old saying goes. That’s precisely what happened - an inch was given and modernists have been taking miles ever since. Things which were only intended for emergency use are being taken advantage of, and the price has been paid dearly.
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Monica4316
Guest
I agree with this… and many of the changes were actually done in disobedience to the Vatican: ie: receiving Communion in the hand. The Vatican later gave an indult cause - well I guess it was too late… but even so, the indult became the norm
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Ockham
Guest
It’s this simple: the EF shares the four marks of the Church (One, Holy, Catholic, Apostolic) whereas the OF doesn’t.
We’ve had a series of popes reluctant to enforce the rules. That’s why a mile was taken when an inch offered in many situations such as the liturgy, seminary approvals, etc.
The Church has suffered worse than this recent post council chaos. It will take a long time to recover as it’s easier to destroy then build. The history books will be kind to those who stuck to the traditions of the Church as the Truth never changes.
We’ve had a series of popes reluctant to enforce the rules. That’s why a mile was taken when an inch offered in many situations such as the liturgy, seminary approvals, etc.
The Church has suffered worse than this recent post council chaos. It will take a long time to recover as it’s easier to destroy then build. The history books will be kind to those who stuck to the traditions of the Church as the Truth never changes.
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archangel04
Guest
Very true. It’s like we are never satisfied lol. But I am glad that the road block of Truth is being placed on the modernist to stop there mile long runs.
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Hesychios
Guest
"What many do not know is that long before Vatican II, there were heretics who infiltrated the Church from Communists and Masons, who wanted to destroy faith in the Liturgy (the true presence of Christ in the Eucharist), because that is the heart of the faith. "
Whenever I see this charge, the wacko-meter goes off.
Whenever I see this charge, the wacko-meter goes off.
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ProVobis
Guest
Which way?
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ProVobis
Guest
And I’m sure she was applauded as well. That is our society’s way.
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FAB
Guest
From the catechism of the Church:
Please explain why you think the OF does not contain these four elements, when it certainly does.
Peace,
FAB
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reggieM
Guest
Many of the “new things” that crept in over time were codified at Trent. As a result of the implementation of Trent, several very ancient liturgies were abolished. The Mass of Trent was also imposed on communities that never used it – it was quite new for them.
Pope Pius V himself changed the Missal and added the feast of Our Lady of Victory
His immediate successor, Pope Gregory XIII, changed the name of this feast to “The Most Holy Rosary of the Blessed Virgin Mary”
Pius V’s work in severely reducing the number of feasts in the Roman Calendar (see this comparison) was very soon further undone by his successors. Feasts that he had abolished, such as those of the Presentation of Mary, Saint Anne and Saint Anthony of Padua, were restored even before Clement VIII’s 1604 typical edition of the Missal was issued.
While keeping on 8 December what he called the feast of “the Conception of Blessed Mary” (omitting the word “Immaculate”), Pius V suppressed the existing special Mass for the feast, directing that the Mass for the Nativity of Mary (with the word “Nativity” replaced by “Conception”) be used instead. Part of that earlier Mass was revived in the Mass that Pope Pius IX ordered to be used on the feast.
In the 300 years after Trent (before Vatican II), many “new things” had crept into the Mass also
Protestant music: Bach, Hassler, Tallis
Vernacular hymns
Translations of the Mass texts into English
The use of handmissals
Dialogue Mass
A completely new Holy Week ceremony
A comparison between Pope Pius V’s Tridentine Calendar and the General Roman Calendar of 1954 shows the changes made from 1570 to 1954. Pope Pius XII made a general revision in 1955, and Pope John XXIII made further general revisions in 1960 simplifying the terminology concerning the ranking of liturgical celebrations.
After Pius V’s original Tridentine Roman Missal, the first new typical edition was promulgated in 1604 by Pope Clement VIII, who in 1592 had issued a revised edition of the Vulgate. The Bible texts in the Missal of Pope Pius V did not correspond exactly to the new Vulgate, and so Clement edited and revised Pope Pius V’s Missal, making alterations both in the scriptural texts and in other matters. He abolished some prayers that the 1570 Missal obliged the priest to say on entering the church; shortened the two prayers to be said after the Confiteor; directed that the words “Haec quotiescumque feceritis, in meam memoriam facietis” should not be said while displaying the chalice to the people after the consecration, but before doing so; inserted directions at several points of the Canon that the priest was to pronounce the words inaudibly; suppressed the rule that, at High Mass, the priest, even if not a bishop, was to give the final blessing with three signs of the cross; and rewrote the rubrics, introducing, for instance, the ringing of a small bell.
In 1911, with the bull Divino Afflatu,[36] Pope Pius X made significant changes in the rubrics. He died in 1914, so it fell to his successor Pope Benedict XV to issue a new typical edition incorporating his changes. This 1920 edition also included a new section headed: “Additions and Changes in the Rubrics of the Missal in accordance with the Bull Divino afflatu and the Subsequent Decrees of the Sacred Congregation of Rites”. This additional section was almost as long as the previous section on the “General Rubrics of the Missal”, which continued to be printed unchanged.
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tridentine_Mass
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The_Bucket
Guest
I really love how today’s Western OF is singled out in these discussions about what Mass is “most true” whereas no one talks about the forms in any of the 20+ Eastern rites. Given that those rites do not use the EF/Tridentine form, I’d think you folks would all take issue with what they’ve been doing for centuries…
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ProVobis
Guest
It may be a little disingenuous to say these these crept INTO the Mass. It may be more of participation of the congregation but they were not technically part of the Mass. The Holy Week, however, was a significant change in the Missal. OTOH, changing of the Canon by Pope John XXIII was definitely a change in the Mass.
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Ockham
Guest
Apostolic: The EF grew organically from the time of Christ. The OF was written by Archbishop Bugnini in the late '60s who was not an apostle. Although only forty years old it is already in its third revision. Many of the OF standards today did not come from the Vatican but rather through disobedience now condoned.
From the catechism of the Church:
Please explain why you think the OF does not contain these four elements, when it certainly does.
Peace,
FAB
Catholic: You can go to an EF anywhere in the world and be able to participate fully. Not so with the OF as it depends on which venacular it is being said.
One: Although there are low and high EFs, with the OF you can walk into a plethora of themes (jazz, polka, folk, soccer, marti gras, outdoor, etc).
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reggieM
Guest
That is true, technically-speaking. But personally (one man’s opinion here), I think it’s a problem to segment the Mass into “Mass parts” and then “non-Mass” parts. Again, in my opinion (and I was blessed with both an Eastern & Western liturgical background), the Mass should be viewed as a unity or wholeness. The idea, for example, that the hymns are “not a part of the Mass” is one of those rationalizing things that lead to (what I see as) the liturgical breakdown that followed Vatican II. You could pile on all sorts of “non-Mass” elements and claim that “the Mass hasn’t changed”.
This same approach is used in the opposite way. Numerous changes to the lived-experience of the Mass have been considered irrelevant as along as the Canon of the Mass stayed the same. Some will say that the Tridentine Mass goes back to the time of the apostles, but is that really an accurate response?
As one who has attended the Tridentine Mass every Sunday for over 15 years now, I think we shouldn’t exaggerate our points or take a one-sided view of history to promote it.
I wish I could make some of these points without sounding contentious – but it’s just that liturgical history is much more complicated than it is portrayed, and the Novus Ordo can be defended on a number of points that tend to get overlooked.
I don’t agree that a war against the Novus Ordo is for the good of the Church and it will force many people to take sides against the Tridentine Mass.
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reggieM
Guest
How about an EF Mass from prior to Vatican II with percussion (Tom Toms), improvisation and African rhythms?
Missa Luba
Father Guido Haazen arrived in the Belgian Congo in 1953 from Belgium. In 1954 he founded the Troubadours (named for Baudouin I of Belgium) as a choir of 45 boys aged 9 to 14 and 15 teachers from Central School in Kamina. In 1958 the ensemble toured Europe to acclaim, at one point singing with the Vienna Boys Choir. There was a high degree of improvisation in the performances, based around traditional song forms. The Sanctus is based on a Kiluba farewell song.[1]
The first recording, which dates from 1958, features solo vocalist Joachim Ngoi and was released as an album on the Philips label in 1963 in the UK (and two years later in the USA), including a selection of songs used as the basis for the Missa Luba. The contiguous “Sanctus” and “Benedictus” sections were released as a single, which spent some time on the record chart in the UK. In 2004 Philips released the original recording on CD (without the Congolese songs), plus a 2000 recording on DVD. The CD also includes the Misa Criolla and Misa Flamenca performed by other artists.
Since the 1960s the Missa Luba has been recorded by other choirs, including The Muungano National Choir of Nairobi, and the Washington Choral Arts Society.
Father Haazen died in 2004.
[edit] Musical arrangement
The “Kyrie” and the “Credo” are wholly elaborated like the “kasalas” which are still performed according to the Ngandanjika (Kasai); the “Sanctus” and the “Benedictus” were inspired by a magnificent “Parting-song in Kiluba.” The “Gloria” is improvised in the typical Kiluba-style of the Katanga. The “Hosannah” is a genuine rhythmic dance of the Kasai, and the “Agnus Dei” is a typical Bena Lulua (Luluabourg) song.
Originally the music was not written. The composition was the result of general cooperation and of a spontaneous inspiration. Later, sheet music of Haazen’s arrangement was published.
In the “Credo” the text (the crucifixion and the death of the Redeemer) is preceded by the usual announcement of death, first on the Kyondo and then on the Kikumvi (Tom-Tom). Then follows a genuine “kilio” (elegy - dead-song) without percussion accompaniment, sung by the solo voice. The doleful tone is stressed by the repeated and sustained o-sounds ("… etiam prono … bis, sub Pontio Pilato… ).
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Ockham
Guest
Well, it is no surprise that a Belgian priest in Africa took the liberty of improvisation with the Mass. The Novus Ordo didn’t spring out of nowhere. There were liturgical liberals pursuing their agenda prior to V2 and post council where the leaders of change.
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reggieM
Guest
Ok, but I think we should recognize where certain arguments are a problem.
1st – liturgical liberals didn’t come from the Novus Ordo.
Can we argue that the Tridentine Mass created liturgical liberals? The Belgian priest was formed on the Tridentine liturgy – and it ended with an African Mass. So, the Tridentine Mass is to blame?
In the opposite way, we can observe liturgical liberalism at work today in the Novus Ordo. Could we say that this liberalism actually came from the Tridentine Mass itself?
Or perhaps we could say that liberals are pushing their agenda on the Novus Ordo which would be a perfectly fine Mass if there weren’t any liberals around.
What I’m getting at is that the Rite itself is no guarantee. Nor is the pre-Conciliar era. One could attend Tridentine Masses that had liturgical abuses and approved innovations like the Missa Luba also.
Personally, I just question further – where did this liberalism come from when there was just the Tridentine Mass in the Roman Rite?
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Ockham
Guest
There seems to be this myth that Traditional Catholics are delusional and belief the world was perfect prior to Vatican II.
It is possible to take liberties and abuse the EF. I suppose if someone wanted to they could interupt the Canon and play an episode of Cheers on the wall.
No, the EF did not cause liturgical liberals, the OF, dancing, clowns, or any other red herring you can think of.
There have always been those within the Church seeking to change it to their own liking. The Church’s greatest enemies are from within.
None of this wild speculation and appeal to exaggeration proves anything.
It is possible to take liberties and abuse the EF. I suppose if someone wanted to they could interupt the Canon and play an episode of Cheers on the wall.
No, the EF did not cause liturgical liberals, the OF, dancing, clowns, or any other red herring you can think of.
There have always been those within the Church seeking to change it to their own liking. The Church’s greatest enemies are from within.
None of this wild speculation and appeal to exaggeration proves anything.
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reggieM
Guest
I’m just probing some of the arguments I’ve heard from trad Catholics over the past 35 years. Some of those arguments have changed since the '70s, so that is very good. But others need to be updated as well.
I think it’s difficult to prove that, though. The EF was virtually the only rite in use in the Roman liturgy for a period of centuries. Then we had liturgical liberals even before Vatican II. Therefore, one could argue that EF created liturgical liberals. Then after that, one could argue that the EF today will cause more liberalism.
True – but can we say that the EF was unsuccessful in preserving the Church from liturgical liberalism? If so, then will liberalism simply increase now?
I agree. But I would also agree that nothing has been proven either way. Many criticisms of the Novus Ordo are based on speculation and exaggeration.
That’s what I’m getting at.
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