Is this true?

[Jacob21]

There have always been those within the Church seeking to change it to their own liking. The Church’s greatest enemies are from within.

None of this wild speculation and appeal to exaggeration proves anything.

Exactly. Finger pointing wont help to solve anything. We have to admit that there are problems in the Church today. Abuses and irreverence at Mass, downplay of the Real Presence of Christ in the Eucharist to no belief in the Real Presence at all. No matter what it is we must work TOGETHER to solve these issues and all issues plaguing the Church today. So please join me in praying:

Hail Mary full of grace, the Lord is with thee. Blessed art’ thou amongst women, and blessed is the fruit of thy womb, Jesus. Holy Mary, Mother of God, pray for us sinners, now and at the hour of our death. Amen

Hail Mary full of grace, the Lord is with thee. Blessed art’ thou amongst women, and blessed is the fruit of thy womb, Jesus. Holy Mary, Mother of God, pray for us sinners, now and at the hour of our death. Amen

Hail Mary full of grace, the Lord is with thee. Blessed art’ thou amongst women, and blessed is the fruit of thy womb, Jesus. Holy Mary, Mother of God, pray for us sinners, now and at the hour of our death. Amen

Ave Maria gratia plena, Dominus tecum. Benedicta tu in mulieribus, et benedictus fructus ventris tui, Jesus. Sancta Maria, Mater Dei, ora pro nobis peccatoribus, nunc et in hora mortis nostrae. Amen.

Ave Maria gratia plena, Dominus tecum. Benedicta tu in mulieribus, et benedictus fructus ventris tui, Jesus. Sancta Maria, Mater Dei, ora pro nobis peccatoribus, nunc et in hora mortis nostrae. Amen.

Ave Maria gratia plena, Dominus tecum. Benedicta tu in mulieribus, et benedictus fructus ventris tui, Jesus. Sancta Maria, Mater Dei, ora pro nobis peccatoribus, nunc et in ora mortis nostrae. Amen

Hail, holy Queen, Mother of mercy. Our life, our sweetness, and our hope. To thee do we cry, poor banished children of Eve. To thee do we send up our sighs, mourning and weeping in this valley of tears. Turn the, most gracious advocate, thine eyes of mercy towards us. And after this our exile, show unto us the blessed fruit of thy womb, Jesus. O clement, O loving, O sweet Virgin Mary. Pray for us O Holy Mother of God. That we may be made worthy of the promises of Christ.
Let us pray.
O God, our refuge and our strength, look down with mercy on Thy people who cry to Thee; and by the intercession of the glorious and immaculate Virgin Mary, Mother of God, of St. Joseph her Spouse, of Thy blessed Apostles Peter and Paul, and of all the Saints, in mercy and goodness hear our prayers for the conversion of sinners, and for the liberty and exaltation of our holy Mother the Church. Through the same Christ our Lord. Amen

Salve Regina, Mater misericordiae. Vita dulcedo, et spes nostra salve. Ad te clamamus, exsules filii Evae. Ad te suspiramus gementes et flentes in hac lacrymarum valle. Eia ergo, Advocata nostra, illos tuos misericordes oculos ad nos converte. Et Jesum, benedictum fructum ventris tui, nobis, post hoc exilium, ostende. O clemens, O pia, O dulcis Virgo Maria. Ora pro nobis, sancta Dei Genitrix. Ut digni efficiamur promossionibus Chrisit.
Oremus.
Deus, refugium nostrum et virtus populum ad te clamantem propitius respice: et intercendente gloriosa et immaculata Virgine Dei Genitrice Maria, cum beato Jospeh, ejus Sponso, ac beatis Apostolis tuis Petro et Paulo, et omnibus Sanctis, quas pro conversione peccatorum, pro liberate et exaltatione sanctae Matris Ecclesiae, preces effundimus, misericors et benignus exaudi. Per eumdem Christum Dominum nostrum. Amen
Saint Michael the Archangel, defend us in battle; be our protection against the wickedness and snares of the devil. May God rebuke him we humbly pray: and do thou, O Prince of the heavenly host, by the power of God, cast into hell Satan and all the evil spirits, who prowl about the world seeking the ruin of souls. Amen

Sancte Michael Archangele, defende nos in praelio, contra nequitiam et insidias diaboli esto praesidium. Imperet illi Deus, supplices deprecamur: tuque, Princeps militiae coelestis, Satanam aliosque spiritus malignos, qui ad perditionem animarum pervagantur in mundo, divina virtute, in infernum detrude. Amen

Most Sacred Heart of Jesus, have mercy on us.
Most Sacred Heart of Jesus, have mercy on us.
Most Sacred Heart of Jesus, have mercy on us.

Cor Jesu sacratissimum, miserere nobis.
Cor Jesu sacratissimum, miserere nobis.
Cor Jesu sacratissmum, miserere nobis.

^Prayers to be recited after Low Mass.

 

[Ockham]

. Many criticisms of the Novus Ordo are based on speculation and exaggeration.

That’s what I’m getting at.

Such as?

Just because you can make an argument doesn’ mean it’s a good one. One could argue that too many Italian popes causes the Novus Ordo.

 

[reggieM]

Such as?

Apostolic: The EF grew organically from the time of Christ. The OF was written by Archbishop Bugnini in the late '60s who was not an apostle. Although only forty years old it is already in its third revision. Many of the OF standards today did not come from the Vatican but rather through disobedience now condoned.

Catholic: You can go to an EF anywhere in the world and be able to participate fully. Not so with the OF as it depends on which venacular it is being said.

One: Although there are low and high EFs, with the OF you can walk into a plethora of themes (jazz, polka, folk, soccer, marti gras, outdoor, etc).

 

[bkovacs]

Apostolic: The EF grew organically from the time of Christ. The OF was written by Archbishop Bugnini in the late '60s who was not an apostle. Although only forty years old it is already in its third revision. Many of the OF standards today did not come from the Vatican but rather through disobedience now condoned.

Catholic: You can go to an EF anywhere in the world and be able to participate fully. Not so with the OF as it depends on which venacular it is being said.

One: Although there are low and high EFs, with the OF you can walk into a plethora of themes (jazz, polka, folk, soccer, marti gras, outdoor, etc).

Agreed!. Just spoke to a Deacon in the Allentown Archdiocese today at the Cathedral. He pretty much told me that this new translation (Roman Rite 3rd edition) will not change the OF Mass to much. You will still have all those abuses in my opinion. He also was not to keen on the EF Mass. But was glad to see that the Bishop has allowed it in “one” parish church. We kept on talking. But he pretty much said that I won’t see it ever become mainstream or even common place in my lifetime. So guess what?. Back to my Eastern Orthodox Church. I’m through with Catholicism. The damage is done. And I will not see it repaired in my lifetime. I’m through with getting my hope ups. only to have them come crashing down. Can’t even begin to imagine what will happen when the next Pope is elected.

 

[reggieM]

Agreed!. Just spoke to a Deacon in the Allentown Archdiocese today at the Cathedral. He pretty much told me that this new translation (Roman Rite 3rd edition) will not change the OF Mass to much. You will still have all those abuses in my opinion. He also was not to keen on the EF Mass. But was glad to see that the Bishop has allowed it in “one” parish church. We kept on talking. But he pretty much said that I won’t see it ever become mainstream or even common place in my lifetime. So guess what?. Back to my Eastern Orthodox Church. I’m through with Catholicism. The damage is done. And I will not see it repaired in my lifetime. I’m through with getting my hope ups. only to have them come crashing down. Can’t even begin to imagine what will happen when the next Pope is elected.

Just for clarification, those weren’t my arguments - I was pointing them out as exaggerations.

 

[bkovacs]

Just for clarification, those weren’t my arguments - I was pointing them out as exaggerations.

To bad they are not exaggerations. They are spot on. Hence my leaving. Good Bye everyone!.

 

[Ockham]

Just for clarification, those weren’t my arguments - I was pointing them out as exaggerations.

Exactly what is an exaggeration? Please be specific.

 

[bkovacs]

My new home.

colinmil.home.comcast.net/~colinmil/stphilip/index.html

 

[reggieM]

Exactly what is an exaggeration? Please be specific.

Ok, this may help:

Apostolic: The EF **grew organically **from the time of Christ.

You are using the term “Apostolic” here to describe a liturgical form. This is a mis-match of terminology. The way you’ve described the so-called apostolic nature of the Tridentine Mass is to say that it “grew organically”. But again, as I showed - Popes simply abolished prayers and added or deleted various elements of the Rite over time. To call the St. Pius V’s codification “Apostolic” is an exaggeration, especially since what he did was a somewhat radical innovation. The Roman Rite had never been uniformly legislated like that before. I pointed out other, entirely approved, innovations to the Tridentine Mass as well. So, even the term “organically” is an exaggeration itself. There’s no way to prove or even define what that term means – and it has no doctrinal or official status in Catholic dogma. One can equally claim that the Novus Ordo is Apostolic since it preserved aspects of the long-standing Roman tradition.

The OF was written by Archbishop Bugnini in the late '60s who was not an apostle.

It’s important to know that none of the proper prayers of the Tridentine Mass were written by apostles. They were simply composed and added to the Mass. There’s nothing “organic” about that. Some of the prayers were actually written over 1,200 years after the Apostolic era. Prefaces, sequences and collects were written by a variety of authors – many not even saints of the Church. So again, you’re providing a false dichotomy.

Although only forty years old it is already in its third revision.

Again, the Tridentine Mass has had many more revisions than that. The number of revisions is irrelevant.

Many of the OF standards today did not come from the Vatican but rather through disobedience now condoned.

The same is very true of some EF standards including the insertion of the Filioque in the Creed which was disobediently added to the Mass and fought against by Pope Leo III, but then was accepted by Rome later and has been used ever since.

Catholic: You can go to an EF anywhere in the world and be able to participate fully. Not so with the OF as it depends on which venacular it is being said.

This again is an exaggeration. The claim is that one can “participate fully” but given that participation in the Mass does not depend on an intellectualization of any of the texts (or illiterate people would never be able to fully participate in Tridentine Masses), then the language question is irrelevant.

One: Although there are low and high EFs, with the OF you can walk into a plethora of themes (jazz, polka, folk, soccer, marti gras, outdoor, etc).

As above – the Missa Luba was fully approved for use with the Tridentine Mass.
It’s also an exaggeration to use these terms from the Creed to refer to a single liturgical rite and not all of them. We don’t say that the Church is “One” because everybody follows the same liturgical rite. That would ignore the many Eastern Rites which have radically different practices than the Tridentine Mass.
You’ve also proposed some of the worst abuses and excesses as if they’re the norm (soccer, marti gras, etc).
Finally, the soldiers in WWII were very glad to celebrate the Tridentine Mass outdoors – as were just about every missionary society in the Church, including the North American martyrs.

 

[Ockham]

Popes simply abolished prayers and added or deleted various elements of the Rite over time.

Exactly. The pope is the successor of St. Peter (an Apostle). Annibale Bugnini was not (nor up for sainthood). The EF grew slowly and gradually over time. The Novus Ordo was by comparison a shock to liturgical continuity.

the soldiers in WWII were very glad to celebrate the Tridentine Mass outdoors – as were just about every missionary society in the Church, including the North American martyrs.

You accuse me of exaggeration and then cite WWII battlefield liturgical practices?

Many resistors to the EF claim they can’t partipate in a foreign language. By extension they are limited to Masses in the language they speak. The EF becomes universal when Catholics understand liturgical Latin, the official language of the Church.

 

[reggieM]

Exactly. The pope is the successor of St. Peter (an Apostle). Annibale Bugnini was not (nor up for sainthood). The EF grew slowly and gradually over time. The Novus Ordo was by comparison a shock to liturgical continuity.

You’re entitled to your opinion, of course. When novel practices were added to the EF, on what basis do you say they were added “slowly”? Additionally, what difference does it make from God’s perspective if a Pope added something slowly or quickly? Your answer assumes that you can respond from God’s perspective.

Because, when we have a debate over the meaning, accuracy and rightness or wrongness of things like “shock” or “continuity” or “organic” or “growth” (e.g. how could the liturgy always “grow” when Popes removed prior practices? Are novelties always something good to add? Pope Pius X wanted to “restore” the liturgy – thus it wasn’t just growth and progress) – someone needs to determine who is right or wrong here.

You accuse me of exaggeration and then cite WWII battlefield liturgical practices?

You cited outdoor Masses as being a characteristic of the Novus Ordo. I should have pointed out (actually, I did) that missionaries for several centuries offered outdoor Masses, and it wasn’t just WWII, but rather any battlefield Masses. From apostolic times, Mass was offered in private residences and even in caves.

So, the evidence I gave (and give now) is far beyond your claim (e.g. the Novus Ordo is not “Catholic” because it has been offered outdoors).
Let’s face it, that’s a ridiculous claim on your part and you can’t defend it.

But I will say again, you’re entitled to your opinion even if it doesn’t convince anyone but yourself. The problem is though, if you’re trying to convince other people, I think you need better arguments (and that was my original point).

Many resistors to the EF claim they can’t partipate in a foreign language. By extension they are limited to Masses in the language they speak. The EF becomes universal when Catholics understand liturgical Latin, the official language of the Church.

Well again – for the vast majority of the history of the Church and of the Roman rite, virtually none of the faithful understood the liturgical language of Latin. In the first place, they were illiterate. Secondly, handmissals were forbidden (actually, they did not exist until the 1500s and then Latin-only). Your claim here is that people have to understand Latin to participate. Or, that the Mass is not universal until people can understand Latin. That is a hard condemnation of the liturgical past (and the Church has never claimed such a thing either).

I’ll go farther and wonder how much Latin a person needs to be fluent in. Are you able to understand all of the propers of the Mass (including readings) in Latin? How about sermons in Latin? Should there be any vernacular in the liturgy at all? If so, why? Is using a Latin/English handmissal wrong?

Again, your opinions have value and I appreciate them. But it’s also important for Catholics to recognize that we have a Church that is the final decision maker. I don’t think we should ignore that. There are many reasons why the Novus Ordo exists today and it’s essential to understand those as much as possible – objectively (dispassionately), broadly and as accurately as we can.

A war against the Novus Ordo may actually not be what God wants from us – and if that’s true then we really need to be concerned. So to avoid that very serious problem, it’s best to be cautious and not over-state our opposition.

 

[Ockham]

You’re entitled to your opinion, of course.

For such a long post you’d think some accuracy would be inevitable.

The UA is centuries old. If a saint’s name was added to the Canon it was a big deal. The Novus Ordo is forty years old and contains more changes than the EF ever knew. It is a rupture in liturgical continuity.

My argument isn’t that the Novus Ordo isn’t universal because it is sometimes celebrated outdoors. You are taking statements out of context. Perhaps you don’t understand my argument or deliberately spinning it to something you feel you can disprove.

I stand by my comparison of the two forms based on the four marks of the Church. Of course you are entitled to your opinion.

 

[FAB]

Apostolic: The EF grew organically from the time of Christ. The OF was written by Archbishop Bugnini in the late '60s who was not an apostle. Although only forty years old it is already in its third revision. Many of the OF standards today did not come from the Vatican but rather through disobedience now condoned.

The celebration of the mass in the early Church did not resemble at all the EF. A tour of various Churchs in Rome and one can see that as the mass changed, so did the architecture, which is a flaw in your conclusion. The OF more resembles the early practice of the mass than does the EF, it is closer to early traditon.

Catholic: You can go to an EF anywhere in the world and be able to participate fully. Not so with the OF as it depends on which venacular it is being said.

I can anywere in the world and participate in the OF. The language is less important thatn the common sacrafice that we share around the world which make us catholic, not the Latin or form of the mass

One: Although there are low and high EFs, with the OF you can walk into a plethora of themes (jazz, polka, folk, soccer, marti gras, outdoor, etc).

We are one united in Christ as His brothers and sisters. The “themes” as you call them reflect the multitude and the variaty of the family of God. The OF recognized those wonderful differences. The need to adjust to people for the celebration based on culture was recongized hundreds of years ago by the Jesuits. It was a Euopean culture that insisted to adherhance to Latin and a the EF of the mass.

One problem, you want to apply the marks of the Church as they apply to the mass and not to the Church as a whole as intended.

Peace,
FAB

 

[Ockham]

The celebration of the mass in the early Church did not resemble at all the EF.

I never said it did, so that would be a flaw in your argument.

The Novus Ordo was written forty years ago by a dubious bishop. Vatican II never called for a new Mass. The OF today is different than what Bugnini originally created. You can’t go anywhere in the world and actively participate in the OF nor be assured of what to expect.

This is a new one: the OF is more traditional than the EF as it better resembles the earliest Masses.

If the OF was solid there would not be winds of change coming from the Vatican. Clearly the typical OF is in need of reform or correction.

 

[bkovacs]

The celebration of the mass in the early Church did not resemble at all the EF. A tour of various Churchs in Rome and one can see that as the mass changed, so did the architecture, which is a flaw in your conclusion. The OF more resembles the early practice of the mass than does the EF, it is closer to early traditon.

Wrong!. The Liturgy of Saint James is the oldest complete form of the Divine Liturgy still in use among the Christian churches. And the OF doesn’t even come close in resemblance.

I can anywere in the world and participate in the OF. The language is less important thatn the common sacrafice that we share around the world which make us catholic, not the Latin or form of the mass

Wrong!. Go to Montreal the Cathedral of Notre Dame. Their is no OF Mass in English. And there is no French/English Missals, like there is for the Latin Mass Latin/English.

We are one united in Christ as His brothers and sisters. The “themes” as you call them reflect the multitude and the variaty of the family of God. The OF recognized those wonderful differences. The need to adjust to people for the celebration based on culture was recongized hundreds of years ago by the Jesuits. It was a Euopean culture that insisted to adherhance to Latin and a the EF of the mass.

In the EF of the Roman Rite (Tridentine, Dominican, Cistercian , Ambrosian Rites, etc.) it is but one theme. In the Byzantine Rite (St John Chrysostom, St Basil, Presanctified Liturgies, etc), it is but one theme. In the OF of the Roman Rite it is many themes, a Roman Protestant hybrid. Polka Masses, Techno Masses, Teen Masses, Neocatecumical Masses, and so on. No Hermeneutic of Continuity what so ever. There all completely different

One problem, you want to apply the marks of the Church as they apply to the mass and not to the Church as a whole as intended.

Peace,
FAB

 

[bkovacs]

Originally Posted by FAB
The celebration of the mass in the early Church did not resemble at all the EF. A tour of various Churchs in Rome and one can see that as the mass changed, so did the architecture, which is a flaw in your conclusion. The OF more resembles the early practice of the mass than does the EF, it is closer to early traditon

Check this site out. liturgica.com/html/litWLMusDev2.jsp. It talks about the Old Roman Chant!. The early Roman Church, like the Eastern Churches used Chant. Not guitars, and techno music, like the OF Mass does today. And there was no liturgical dancing either.

Here is a sample FAB of Old Roman Chant. liturgica.com/cart/musicInfo.jsp?catNo=AC004. Not even close to the music in the OF Mass today. liturgica.com//mp3/AC004/AC004_09.mp3

 

[FAB]

I never said it did, so that would be a flaw in your argument.

The Novus Ordo was written forty years ago by a dubious bishop. Vatican II never called for a new Mass. The OF today is different than what Bugnini originally created. You can’t go anywhere in the world and actively participate in the OF nor be assured of what to expect.

This is a new one: the OF is more traditional than the EF as it better resembles the earliest Masses.

If the OF was solid there would not be winds of change coming from the Vatican. Clearly the typical OF is in need of reform or correction.

Actually the OF goes back to the second and third centuries. The earliest description of the celebration of the mass very closely resemble the Novus Ordo. It wasn’t created is was renewed.

Peace,
FAB

 

[FAB]

Originally Posted by FAB
The celebration of the mass in the early Church did not resemble at all the EF. A tour of various Churchs in Rome and one can see that as the mass changed, so did the architecture, which is a flaw in your conclusion. The OF more resembles the early practice of the mass than does the EF, it is closer to early traditon

Check this site out. liturgica.com/html/litWLMusDev2.jsp. It talks about the Old Roman Chant!. The early Roman Church, like the Eastern Churches used Chant. Not guitars, and techno music, like the OF Mass does today. And there was no liturgical dancing either.

Here is a sample FAB of Old Roman Chant. liturgica.com/cart/musicInfo.jsp?catNo=AC004. Not even close to the music in the OF Mass today. liturgica.com//mp3/AC004/AC004_09.mp3

The Earliest celebrations of the mass was in homes, not until the fouth century did the celebration happen in churchs. The celebration consisted of sharing the word, then the celbration of the Eucharist. The forms of the celebration varied from location to location. the body of Christ in loaves of bread not wafers were broken and given to all present to share. the deacon took the Eucharist to those who were abstance, the precious blood was also shared. I would imagine, any music would have been made with the instruments of the day, lute and harp. The organ didn’t come into existance for hundreds of years. Chants didn’t start until the advent of monestaries.

The development of the mass moved away from this communial sharing, we got high altars, communion rails, the clergy seperated from the layity, an Echuarist only being given at Easter.
The OF as I indicated before is a restoration of ancient practices much older than the EF.

Peace,
FAB

 

[ProVobis]

Well again – for the vast majority of the history of the Church and of the Roman rite, virtually none of the faithful understood the liturgical language of Latin. In the first place, they were illiterate. Secondly, handmissals were forbidden (actually, they did not exist until the 1500s and then Latin-only). Your claim here is that people have to understand Latin to participate. Or, that the Mass is not universal until people can understand Latin. That is a hard condemnation of the liturgical past (and the Church has never claimed such a thing either).

Then by your implications the understanding of the Mass should have exponentially increased with the suppression of the Latin. There has not been any evidence that the vernacular in the liturgy has increased any such understanding. If anything it has declined.

 

[Ockham]

Actually the OF goes back to the second and third centuries. The earliest description of the celebration of the mass very closely resemble the Novus Ordo. It wasn’t created is was renewed.

Peace,
FAB

Really? So Bugnini copied the ancient liturgies? Any collaborating evidence?