Is This What Protestantism Is Really About??

[adstrinity]

To answer OneTrueCathApos’s thread title, “Is This What Protestantism Is Really About??” The answer is, “No. It is not.”

Thank you for the answer. Simple and goes back to the original post.

Let me tell you what I see (to everybody here). I see somebody who loves Catholocism and Catholic apologetics and is upset when his fellow Catholics do not love it as much as he does. While it is good and fine that Protestants inform us that we are in error and taking things out of context, and explaining what Luther meant and the extenuating circumstances, and I thank you for all the charitable answers and differing points of view, we fellow Catholics on this forum should have given OneTrueCathApos the benefit of the doubt and understand where he is coming from before jumping on the attacks on him. If he needs correction, fine, even so, have Catholic sources to back up claims. At times, it amazes me how many Catholics on this forum do not back up Catholocism.

 

[Steadfast]

Anybody note the irony of someone who claims the source a Protestant cites is anti-Catholic and then proceeds to whip out that prince of slanderers, O’Hare?

Combined with the fact that he is obviously so careless that he didn’t even take the time to access the source I gave (that wasn’t a typo, a typo is when you make a physical error making key-strokes, not when you reject an authority because you disagree with the person presenting it) this has made for some very entertaining reading.

 

[Steadfast]

Thank you for the answer. Simple and goes back to the original post.

Let me tell you what I see (to everybody here). I see somebody who loves Catholocism and Catholic apologetics and is upset when his fellow Catholics do not love it as much as he does. While it is good and fine that Protestants inform us that we are in error and taking things out of context, and explaining what Luther meant and the extenuating circumstances, and I thank you for all the charitable answers and differing points of view, we fellow Catholics on this forum should have given OneTrueCathApos the benefit of the doubt and understand where he is coming from before jumping on the attacks on him. If he needs correction, fine, even so, have Catholic sources to back up claims. At times, it amazes me how many Catholics on this forum do not back up Catholocism.

And it amazes me that the Catholics on this forum leave it to the Protestants to correct him. Instead we hear excuses made for him, “Well, he just loves Catholicism so much…” as though that covers slander, misrepresentation and rank uncharitability.

We’ll give that a shot the next time a bible thumping fundy wanders in here and tells you all you’re going to hell for worshiping statues.

 

[gcnuss]

And it amazes me that the Catholics on this forum leave it to the Protestants to correct him. Instead we hear excuses made for him, “Well, he just loves Catholicism so much…” as though that covers slander, misrepresentation and rank uncharitability.

Steadfast,

I was heartened by the number of Catholics who actually took issue with the OP’s remarks.

 

[happilycatholic]

Martin Luther:

"If men believe in Christ and accept Him as their personal savior, His justice will be imputed to them and they will go straight to Heaven. It does not matter what evil they have done during their lives. It does not matter whether they are, or not, repentful of their sins. It does not matter at the moment of their death whether they have contrition or not, or if they are in a state of Grace. If they accepted Christ as their “personal” Savior, they will be saved."

"I do not wish to see or hear anything of Moses. If we allow the Ten commandments any influence on our conscience they become the cloak of evil, heretics, and blasphemers. If Moses should intimidate you with his Ten Commandments, tell him right off to chase himself to the Jews. Moses should forever be looked about with suspicion, even as a heretic, damned, even worse than the pope and the devil."

Luther changed Scriptures so that wherever it said to “do pennance”, he wrote, “to do better”. In Acts 19:18 where it says, “Many of them came and confessing their sins”, he wrote, “They came acknowledging the miracles of the Apostles.” In the Annunciation where it said “Full of Grace”, he changed it to “Thou gracious one”. In Romans where it said “We account a man to be justified by faith”, he wrote “We hold man justified by faith alone without the works of the Law”.

When questioned about his addition of the word “alone” he stated,

"If your pope annoys you with the word, tell him that I will have it that way. Popes and asses are one and the same thing. To the devil with anyone who censures my translation without my will or knowledge. I will have it that way. I am the doctor of all the doctors of popidom. These popish asses are not able to appreciate my labors."

Regarding the Jews, he wrote,

"Burn their Synagogues and schools. Put them on fire, their homes, their prayer books and their Rabbi’s."

Yes, insomuch as the hair in your soup today became your lunch.

 

[RobHom]

And it amazes me that the Catholics on this forum leave it to the Protestants to correct him.

This is definitely not the case…

Instead we hear excuses made for him, “Well, he just loves Catholicism so much…” as though that covers slander, misrepresentation and rank uncharitability.

One may have, the rest of us have not.

We’ll give that a shot the next time a bible thumping fundy wanders in here and tells you all you’re going to hell for worshiping statues.

I would hope that you would not lower yourself to the level of that which you decry! I would think that you would be above that. At least I hope so…

 

[adstrinity]

And it amazes me that the Catholics on this forum leave it to the Protestants to correct him. Instead we hear excuses made for him, “Well, he just loves Catholicism so much…” as though that covers slander, misrepresentation and rank uncharitability.

We’ll give that a shot the next time a bible thumping fundy wanders in here and tells you all you’re going to hell for worshiping statues.

We don’t leave it to the Protestants, but, I thank the Protestants who, in theory, may be more educated in Protestantism. There is a right way and a wrong way to correct somebody, not finding out what OneTrueCathApos was getting at is not correct. We give more courtesy to those who attack us.

WHEN is the last time ANY arguement against one of the anti-Catholic’s are pursuayed by any arguement?

Steadfast,

I was heartened by the number of Catholics who actually took issue with the OP’s remarks.

One may have, the rest of us have not.

ARGH!!! THIS IS WHAT I WAS TALKING ABOUT!!!..

 

[gcnuss]

ARGH!!! THIS IS WHAT I WAS TALKING ABOUT!!!..

Adstrinity,

I hope that I haven’t been the cause of that cry of anguish. If so, I apologize.

 

[RobHom]

ARGH!!! THIS IS WHAT I WAS TALKING ABOUT!!!..

Uhhhhh, I do believe that you misunderstood my statement.

I was referring to the fact that it appeared that only one made excuses, the rest of us issued reproaches and corrections.

 

[adstrinity]

Adstrinity,

I hope that I haven’t been the cause of that cry of anguish. If so, I apologize.

Bah. No worries.

…Are you a synod Lutheran?

 

[CWBetts]

Lutherans do not believe they are following Luther as far as I can tell. In fact, it seems it is very insulting to any Lutheran from my basic research. They follow Jesus Christ.

No Protestant follows Jesus as much as they think they do. If they did, they would accept the authority of the Church established by Christ Himself, and not a church established by Martin Luther, John Wesley, John Calvin, or their followers.

 

[Rightlydivide]

Thoughts:
A man not raised in the church reads the Bible. He becomes a Christian. His conversion had nothing to do with anyone sharing their theology. He is baptized by a Baptist preacher but does not have any more dealings with the Baptist preacher other than his baptism (read about the Baptist pastor baptizing people in a river, even during the winter on Saturdays). He starts a church, originally with only his wife and one elderly neighbor. He does not attend a Bible school but is self taught. Whether you agree or disagree with his actions, how is what Luther said relevent to him?
I am not this person but I know him quite well. He is my pastor.

 

[Rightlydivide]

No Protestant follows Jesus as much as they think they do. If they did, they would accept the authority of the Church established by Christ Himself, and not a church established by Martin Luther, John Wesley, John Calvin, or their followers.

They do not think the Catholic Church is that church. Whether you agree with them or not. You already know that.

 

[Steadfast]

What I have seen from Catholics is not correction, but hand wringing and clucking, and the effort to say that Lutheranism, of all the kinds of Protestantism seems to have fallen closest to the tree, ain’t that nice?

He said archly.

 

[CWBetts]

If there is no church extant today that was founded by Christ, then Christ has been made a liar:

“And so I say to you, you are Peter, and upon this rock will I buld my church, and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it. I will give you the keys to the kingdom of heaven. Whatever you bind in earth shal bebound in heaven; and whatever you loose on earth shal be loosed in heaven” (Matthew 16:18-19)

The Roman Catholic Church predeates all of the Protestant offshoots by a mininum of 1500 years. The Protestant churches were OBVIOUSLY not founded by Christ. If the Catholic Church was not founded by Christ either, then that means the original Christ-founded Church is dead, something our Lord promised would not happen. You cannot have it both ways. Either the Catholic Church is the Church founded by Christ, or Christ’s Church has been overcome by the Gates of Hell.

 

[Rightlydivide]

If there is no church extant today that was founded by Christ, then Christ has been made a liar:

“And so I say to you, you are Peter, and upon this rock will I buld my church, and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it. I will give you the keys to the kingdom of heaven. Whatever you bind in earth shal bebound in heaven; and whatever you loose on earth shal be loosed in heaven” (Matthew 16:18-19)

The Roman Catholic Church predeates all of the Protestant offshoots by a mininum of 1500 years. The Protestant churches were OBVIOUSLY not founded by Christ. If the Catholic Church was not founded by Christ either, then that means the original Christ-founded Church is dead, something our Lord promised would not happen. You cannot have it both ways. Either the Catholic Church is the Church founded by Christ, or Christ’s Church has been overcome by the Gates of Hell.

The church has had divisions since the start. That is the central theme of Corinthians for heavens sake. When you turn to Revelation and the seven churches…division. When you turn to Peters disputes with James…division. Division division division. Perhaps the fault is in an oversimplified exegesis…

 

[CWBetts]

and sespite all of this division, the Catholic Church, founded by Christ remains, if you like I can give you an unbroken succession of Popes starting with Saint Peter

 

[gcnuss]

Bah. No worries.

…Are you a synod Lutheran?

I am a member of the ELCA (Evangelical Lutheran Church in America).

 

[Rightlydivide]

and sespite all of this division, the Catholic Church, founded by Christ remains, if you like I can give you an unbroken succession of Popes starting with Saint Peter

Please. Peter had no successor. The so called contradictory line of Popes are wishful thinking by people like Irenaues. I have posted the differeing lists several times. There is no such thing as a monarchial bishop in Rome early on. Listen, this is like debating with a beginner. I will pass. Come back in two or three years.

 

[CWBetts]

Beginner? I went to a “Fundamentalist” Bible college that was virulently anti-Catholic. According to the Scriptures, Peter had primacy among all the apostles. Its throughout Acts. Don’t believe me? Look it up. I can tell you this, it was the One True Church that truly brought me to Jesus. Only since becoming Catholic have I found a true relationship with the Lord. Now when I pray, I’m not just talking into the air, but I am talking diectly to the Triune Godhead, as well as with the Blessed Mother and all the Saints. Granted none of this power came through me, or through my priest, or even the Holy Father. This came through the power of God. Since you have never been in the presence of the Lord, I don’t expect you to understand. When Catholics worship, the Christ is the central focus. The reason for Mass is the oppertunity to recieve the Body and Blood of our Savior in the Holy Eucharist. The center of Protestant worship is not Jesus, but a man. Protestants go to hear a fallible man speak at a service that is has more in common with a social gathering than true worship. They have rejected the commands of Christ, and view their “Lord’s Supper” as merely a symbol. But Jesus said “Amen, amen, I say to you, unless you eat the flesh of the Son of Man and drink his blood, you do noat have life within you. Whoever eats my flesh and drinks my blood has eternal life, and I will raise him on the last day” (John 6:53-54). The Catholic Church accepts Christ at his word. This was the greatest crime of the Reformation. Thousands were taken away from Christ.