Is This What Protestantism Is Really About??

[Steadfast]

If there is no church extant today that was founded by Christ, then Christ has been made a liar:

“And so I say to you, you are Peter, and upon this rock will I buld my church, and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it. I will give you the keys to the kingdom of heaven. Whatever you bind in earth shal bebound in heaven; and whatever you loose on earth shal be loosed in heaven” (Matthew 16:18-19)

The Roman Catholic Church predeates all of the Protestant offshoots by a mininum of 1500 years. The Protestant churches were OBVIOUSLY not founded by Christ. If the Catholic Church was not founded by Christ either, then that means the original Christ-founded Church is dead, something our Lord promised would not happen. You cannot have it both ways. Either the Catholic Church is the Church founded by Christ, or Christ’s Church has been overcome by the Gates of Hell.

You’re assuming that historical pedigree trumps, or at least outweighs confessional solidarity.

Christ did establish only one church and, today, there is still only one church made up of all those He has purchased with His blood.

The signs on the buildings where they gather are testimony to their brokenness and the abiding nature of original sin. They are shameful and perhaps counter-productive when it comes to our standing before the world, but they do no violence to the real unity we enjoy.

 

[thirdn6]

Another Catholic admiring Luther…God give me strength…

Deliver us from evil. I mean from every evil. All evil. That’s what we pray everyday as Catholics, yet…

They seem to not know who the enemy is. In the gesture of being charitable they seem to be tolerant of false beliefs.
I see same names in here since my first posts. Same instruments of strange doctrines. Hindering people seeking the true faith.

We don’t condemn the sinner, we condemn the sin they always say but I don’t understand why one self-confessed catholic can not condemn false teachings (which also lead to sin) even spoken by an angel who comes from heaven. False teachings spread about by these teachers of bogus authority.

Be strong. I’m with you on this one, my friend.

 

[jmcrae]

Thoughts:
A man not raised in the church reads the Bible.

Where does he find a Bible, and how does he know he should read it?

He becomes a Christian. His conversion had nothing to do with anyone sharing their theology.

Somehow, he found out that the Bible isn’t a work of fiction, history, or poetry. Somehow, he knew in advance that the Bible was a way of learning about how to worship God. Which means that, somewhere along the way, someone shared a kind of theology with him.

He is baptized by a Baptist preacher but does not have any more dealings with the Baptist preacher other than his baptism (read about the Baptist pastor baptizing people in a river, even during the winter on Saturdays).

How did he meet the preacher? How did he think of going to Church to be baptized? (Why didn’t the preacher invite him to come to Sunday School?)

He starts a church, originally with only his wife and one elderly neighbor. He does not attend a Bible school but is self taught. Whether you agree or disagree with his actions, how is what Luther said relevent to him?
I am not this person but I know him quite well. He is my pastor.

I seriously doubt that your pastor’s experience was quite as pur laine as all that. He was influenced by something or someone, somewhere along the line, or else he never would have picked up a Bible and read through the whole thing (most people who just pick up a Bible at random and start reading it usually put it down and forget about it, half way through Leviticus), nor gone to a Baptist church to be baptized. (Why not Catholic or Anglican? The buildings look much more “church-like” than Baptist meeting halls do.)

 

[happilycatholic]

You’re assuming that historical pedigree trumps, or at least outweighs confessional solidarity.

Christ did establish only one church and, today, there is still only one church made up of all those He has purchased with His blood.

The signs on the buildings where they gather are testimony to their brokenness and the abiding nature of original sin. They are shameful and perhaps counter-productive when it comes to our standing before the world, but they do no violence to the real unity we enjoy.

You are absolutely right and let’s put this back into perspective.

The catholic Church is the one who follows the laws of God, practices the faith as Jesus and His Aposles did and mirrors the life of Christ. All others are still a part of the Church and have been since baptism, however far removed they may be.

**Edit to clarify: The catholic Church is the place to be if you want to mirror the life of Christ and not just prove you believe in God and read your Bible.

 

[Rightlydivide]

Where does he find a Bible, and how does he know he should read it?

He has read his whole life. Thats what he does. He had even read the Koran in college he once told me. My understanding is that he bought it at Borders because he had heard about it his whole life!

Somehow

 

[happilycatholic]

We know that the Protestant faith is not summed up to the OP’s rant about Luther. But I think the differences between us on this thread vary. I have Protestant parents who are nothing like what the OP describes. But, did that even need to be said? I don’t think it even deserves a serious reply but this is mine:

This is just my experience but I think for a lot of Protestants who convert to catholism, it may be common.

I was raised Baptist, though never baptized in that faith. I have nothing against Protestants. However, in attending many,many churches over the years (I’m 41) in many different denominations, it wasn’t until I went to a catholic wedding and then a catholic funeral (in the same family, several years apart) that I realized what I was missing.

To me the difference between a Protestant church and the catholic Church is the difference between laying your hand on a Bible and actually being able to step into the Bible and live it in real time with Jesus and the Apostles and all the people they gathered to them.

I have been into several Protestant churches (not all) and you can’t see a mark anywhere of God or Jesus. No angels, no Jesus, no cross. Just empty space and places to sit. That is truly sad.

We as catholics live our faith deeply by means of our sacraments. Even the way we read the scripture and the Gospel in our Mass is so very different than going to hear a pastor share what’s on his mind or heart at the time with the help of scripture.

And nothing in this world can take the place of the Eucharist which is the center of every mass. Christ is right there! We genuflect to Him upon entering and leaving, we take Him into our bodies and we know He is present. It’s truly beautiful every single time I go to mass. Even if I just go to the chapel and be near my Lord for some reason or to pray, I know I’m in His presence. We all know it. Our chapels have a candle that is burning at all times so as to let people know Christ is present in the Tabernacle.

And we have the Font. It’s not stuck up high in a tank, hidden behind a curtain where you can’t get to it, like the church owns it or something or like it’s a tool and only used when needed for a job. It’s not only a beautiful reminder of our baptism, it is an everflowing abundance of blessed water. We can bless ourselves coming in so as to cleanse our minds, bodies and souls so that we can hear the Word of the Lord and take it into our hearts. And we can bless ourselves when we leave and go out into the world covered in God’s protection.

The catholic faith is a beautiful expression of God’s love for us and His willingness to let us BE a part of Him and walk with Him along our journey.

Nothing less will do, nothing less.

Peace Be With You

 

[Rightlydivide]

Beginner? I went to a “Fundamentalist” Bible college that was virulently anti-Catholic. According to the Scriptures, Peter had primacy among all the apostles. Its throughout Acts. Don’t believe me? Look it up. I can tell you this, it was the One True Church that truly brought me to Jesus. Only since becoming Catholic have I found a true relationship with the Lord. Now when I pray, I’m not just talking into the air, but I am talking diectly to the Triune Godhead, as well as with the Blessed Mother and all the Saints. Granted none of this power came through me, or through my priest, or even the Holy Father. This came through the power of God. Since you have never been in the presence of the Lord, I don’t expect you to understand. When Catholics worship, the Christ is the central focus. The reason for Mass is the oppertunity to recieve the Body and Blood of our Savior in the Holy Eucharist. The center of Protestant worship is not Jesus, but a man. Protestants go to hear a fallible man speak at a service that is has more in common with a social gathering than true worship. They have rejected the commands of Christ, and view their “Lord’s Supper” as merely a symbol. But Jesus said “Amen, amen, I say to you, unless you eat the flesh of the Son of Man and drink his blood, you do noat have life within you. Whoever eats my flesh and drinks my blood has eternal life, and I will raise him on the last day” (John 6:53-54). The Catholic Church accepts Christ at his word. This was the greatest crime of the Reformation. Thousands were taken away from Christ.

It is nice to know that everyone who eats and drinks his blood goes to heaven. I was not aware that was your official doctrine…
Heck, just join the church, take the Eucharist once and you are good to go?
You way oversimplify everything. You **are **a beginner if you got your info on the Catholic Church at a fundamentalist college. I would never trust one of my own on this matter. You have to dig deeper or all you get is Jack Chick.
I could provide some links but I could care less what church you go to. Knock yourself out man.

 

[CWBetts]

You misunderstand. The reason I am a Catholic is because there is no truth in the Fundamentalist movement. None. Zero. I am a Catholic because the best testamony of Christian life I have ever seen has come from Catholics. My info on the Catholic Church comes from prayerful study. I have firm belief that the Catholic Church was founded by Christ himself, and not by a rebellious monk or selfish monarch. I care very much about what church I go to. In fact, if you had any knowledge of Catholicism at all, you would realize there is a nine month process of education and rites before you are fully accepted into the Church, unlike the used-car salesman approach of Fundamentalists (What can I do to get you to accept Christ TODAY?) Pick a Catholic doctrine, and I Can justify it. Try me.

 

[BW_Phillips]

OneTruCathApos, you wrote:
“Oh, I beg to differ. Luther made up the line “personal” savior in the 1500’s. Personal is not in the bible. Luther had conjured it up.
Furthermore, Luther wasn’t as concerned about alleged papal “corruption” as he was about changing church Doctrine and monkey-wrenching church authority.”

Shouldn’t we keep in mind our responsibility not to assign motives where we cannot know them. Did Luther ever state that his desire was to “change church doctrine and monkey-wrench church authority?”

If not, Christian charity demands that we not assign an evil motive (1st Corinthians 13:4-8).

Other than that, you need to cite your sources. Your unwillingness to do so even with so many asking for it makes it difficult for us not to assign evil motives. )

 

[JonNC]

happily,
I think you make some good points here.

=happilycatholic;4427143]
I have been into several Protestant churches (not all) and you can’t see a mark anywhere of God or Jesus. No angels, no Jesus, no cross. Just empty space and places to sit. That is truly sad.

I’m thankful that my parish has a beautiful, large crucifix that hangs over the altar, that our baptismal font stands prominently in the sanctuary as a reminder of Christ receiving us as His in the sacrament of baptism. But we could do more, much more, to adorn our place of worship, including likenesses of the saints who by their faith and actions, demonstrate to us how to live a godly life.

We as catholics live our faith deeply by means of our sacraments. Even the way we read the scripture and the Gospel in our Mass is so very different than going to hear a pastor share what’s on his mind or heart at the time with the help of scripture.

I’m thankful that we share this liturgical approach to worship with you.

And nothing in this world can take the place of the Eucharist which is the center of every mass. Christ is right there! We genuflect to Him upon entering and leaving, we take Him into our bodies and we know He is present. It’s truly beautiful every single time I go to mass. Even if I just go to the chapel and be near my Lord for some reason or to pray, I know I’m in His presence. We all know it. Our chapels have a candle that is burning at all times so as to let people know Christ is present in the Tabernacle.

While we practice our Eucharistic piety differently, I believe yours is beautiful and inspiring in many ways, and I’d like to see my faith tradition return to some of these practices.

And we have the Font. It’s not stuck up high in a tank, hidden behind a curtain where you can’t get to it, like the church owns it or something or like it’s a tool and only used when needed for a job. It’s not only a beautiful reminder of our baptism, it is an everflowing abundance of blessed water. We can bless ourselves coming in so as to cleanse our minds, bodies and souls so that we can hear the Word of the Lord and take it into our hearts. And we can bless ourselves when we leave and go out into the world covered in God’s protection.

You have so much to be thankful for.

The catholic faith is a beautiful expression of God’s love for us and His willingness to let us BE a part of Him and walk with Him along our journey.

I agree. God has blessed you richly.

Peace Be With You

and also with you.

Jon

 

[happilycatholic]

happily,

Thanks Jon! ALL of us who are baptized in the name of The Father, The Son and the Holy Spirit are richly blessed no matter where we worship or how we do it! Because God is great!

 

[D_M]

Hi,

Full text of Martin Luther’s On the Jews and their Lies

humanitas-international.org/showcase/chronography/documents/luther-jews.htm

It’s about 65,000 words long and it was printed in 1543 near the end of Luther’s life. The Nazis loved this book, and they re-printed it in large quantities. Its influence on the actual holocaust is debated by historians, some try to minimize’s Luther’s influence and suggest that German anti-semitism was strong regardless of Luther, while others treat him as the spiritual father of the holocaust. If you read this book, it is really not hard to see events like the Kristallnacht or the Nuremburg legislation taking form in Luther’s words.

Most people outside the german speaking world have probably never even heard of it. I’ve heard that one Nazi newspaper once called it ‘the most anti-semitic work of all time’… I am familiar with the fact that many church fathers and sainted people have likewise made judgments of the jewish people, although I really don’t think that Luther’s work is comparable to them because he not only judged them but also called for their collective murder and destruction.

This is what Chrysostom wrote:

“The synagogue is worse than a brothel…it is the den of scoundrels and the repair of wild beasts…the temple of demons devoted to idolatrous cults…the refuge of brigands and dabauchees, and the cavern of devils. It is a criminal assembly of Jews…a place of meeting for the assassins of Christ… a house worse than a drinking shop…a den of thieves, a house of ill fame, a dwelling of iniquity, the refuge of devils, a gulf and a abyss of perdition.”…“I would say the same things about their souls… As for me, I hate the synagogue…I hate the Jews for the same reason.”

This is what Luther wrote:

• "There is no other explanation for this than the one cited earlier from Moses, namely, that God has struck them with “madness and blindness and confusion of mind.” So we are even at fault in not avenging all this innocent blood of our Lord and of the Christians which they shed for three hundred years after the destruction of Jerusalem, and the blood of the children they have shed since then (which still shines forth from their eyes and their skin). We are at fault in not slaying them. Rather we allow them to live freely in our midst despite an their murdering, cursing, blaspheming, lying, and defaming; we protect and shield their synagogues, houses, life, and property In this way we make them lazy and secure and encourage them to fleece us boldly of our money and goods, as well as to mock and deride us, with a view to finally overcoming us, killing us all for such a great sin, and robbing us of all our property (as they daily pray and hope). Now tell me whether they do not have every reason to be the enemies of us accursed Goyim, to curse us and to strive for our final, complete, and eternal ruin! "

I don’t think protestants subscribe to this (some do though, but that’s a different issue), although I do think that Luther as an individual was about as much as a hero as Hitler himself.

(Understandably though, it is perhaps important to some people to try to mythologize the reformation and its figures.)

God Bless,

 

[OneTrueCathApos]

Thank you adstrinity and the others who stand up for your beliefs…Luther was the start of the Reformation as soon as he nailed those 95 theses to the church doors.
Like I said in my last post, this Luther who is celebrated for calling into question the authority of the Catholic church, yet his teachings and ways of thinking were not much of a Spititual leader.
Zwigli was born in 1484 and 2 years after Luther in 1519, he started his own religion. LUTHER WAS THE FIRST. Luther PROTESTED the Catholic church, hence Protestanism began, then all the other off-shoots that followed.

 

[Rightlydivide]

You misunderstand. The reason I am a Catholic is because there is no truth in the Fundamentalist movement. None. Zero. I am a Catholic because the best testamony of Christian life I have ever seen has come from Catholics. My info on the Catholic Church comes from prayerful study. I have firm belief that the Catholic Church was founded by Christ himself, and not by a rebellious monk or selfish monarch. I care very much about what church I go to. In fact, if you had any knowledge of Catholicism at all, you would realize there is a nine month process of education and rites before you are fully accepted into the Church, unlike the used-car salesman approach of Fundamentalists (What can I do to get you to accept Christ TODAY?) Pick a Catholic doctrine, and I Can justify it. Try me.

No truth in the fundamentalist movement?

We believe in the virgin birth.
We believe in a literal resurrection.
We believe that Jesus was God.
We are Pro-Life.
Come again? No truth? Zero?
I thought we were your seperated brethren? That is your teaching?

 

[OneTrueCathApos]

OneTruCathApos, you wrote:
“Oh, I beg to differ. Luther made up the line “personal” savior in the 1500’s. Personal is not in the bible. Luther had conjured it up.
Furthermore, Luther wasn’t as concerned about alleged papal “corruption” as he was about changing church Doctrine and monkey-wrenching church authority.”

Shouldn’t we keep in mind our responsibility not to assign motives where we cannot know them. Did Luther ever state that his desire was to “change church doctrine and monkey-wrench church authority?”

If not, Christian charity demands that we not assign an evil motive (1st Corinthians 13:4-8).

Other than that, you need to cite your sources. Your unwillingness to do so even with so many asking for it makes it difficult for us not to assign evil motives. )

I have already cited my sources. Why don’t you just read up on your most glorious Reformer? It’s not rocket science…

 

[mark_a]

No truth in the fundamentalist movement?

We believe in the virgin birth.
We believe in a literal resurrection.
We believe that Jesus was God.
We are Pro-Life.
Come again? No truth? Zero?
I thought we were your seperated brethren? That is your teaching?

Most non-Catholics think they know the Catholic Church.

One thing that makes things difficult for Catholics is that we don’t know who’s who in the Protestant world.

For example:

I have a fundamentalist Baptist friend who does not know that human life is sacred from conception to natural death. Is he doomed to hell because he hasn’t been taught? Absolutely not.

 

[Rightlydivide]

Most non-Catholics think they know the Catholic Church.

One thing that makes things difficult for Catholics is that we don’t know who’s who in the Protestant world.

For example:

I have a fundamentalist Baptist friend who does not that human life is sacred from conception to natural death. Is he doomed to hell because he hasn’t been taught? Absolutely not.

I understand what you are saying. I really do. It would be a challenge. But the items I listed clearly show that any statement that fundamentalism contains zero truth is inaccurate. If they(not you) need clarification, so be it. Ask for it.

 

[mark_a]

I understand what you are saying. I really do. It would be a challenge. But the items I listed clearly show that any statement that fundamentalism contains zero truth is inaccurate. If they(not you) need clarification, so be it. Ask for it.

Dig city.

 

[JonNC]

Hi,

(Understandably though, it is perhaps important to some people to try to mythologize the reformation and its figures.)

God Bless,

DM,
Here is how my church writes about Luther’s anti-jewish writings.

Luther’s Anti-Semitism

** Q. What is the Missouri Synod’s response to the anti-Semitic statements made by Luther?**

A. While The Lutheran Church–Missouri Synod holds Martin Luther in high esteem for his bold proclamation and clear articulation of the teachings of Scripture, it deeply regrets and deplores statements made by Luther which express a negative and hostile attitude toward the Jews. In light of the many positive and caring statements concerning the Jews made by Luther throughout his lifetime, it would not be fair on the basis of these few regrettable (and uncharacteristic) negative statements, to characterize the reformer as “a rabid anti-Semite.” The LCMS, however, does not seek to “excuse” these statements of Luther, but denounces them (without denouncing Luther’s theology). In 1983, the Synod adopted an official resolution addressing these statements of Luther and making clear its own position on anti-Semitism. The text of this resolution reads as follows:

WHEREAS, Anti-Semitism and other forms of racism are a continuing problem in our world; and

WHEREAS, Some of Luther’s intemperate remarks about the Jews are often cited in this connection; and

WHEREAS, It is widely but falsely assumed that Luther’s personal writings and opinions have some official status among us (thus, sometimes implying the responsibility of contemporary Lutheranism for those statements, if not complicity in them); but also

WHEREAS, It is plain from scripture that the Gospel must be proclaimed to all people–that is, to Jews also, no more and no less than to others (Matt. 28:18-20); and

WHEREAS, This Scriptural mandate is sometimes confused with anti-Semitism; therefore be it

Resolved, That we condemn any and all discrimination against others on account of race or religion or any coercion on that account and pledge ourselves to work and witness against such sins; and be it further

Resolved, That we reaffirm that the bases of our doctrine and practice are the Scriptures and the Lutheran Confessions and not Luther, as such; and be it further

Resolved, That while, on the one hand, we are deeply indebted to Luther for his rediscovery and enunciation of the Gospel, on the other hand, we deplore and disassociate ourselves from Luther’s negative statements about the Jewish people, and, by the same token, we deplore the use today of such sentiments by Luther to incite ant-Christian and/or anti-Lutheran sentiment; and be it further

Resolved, That in our teaching and preaching we take care not to confuse the religion of the Old Testament (often labeled “Yahwism”) with the subsequent Judaism, nor misleadingly speak about “Jews” in the Old Testament (“Israelites” or “Hebrews” being much more accurate terms), lest we obscure the basic claim of the New Testament and of the Gospel to being in substantial continuity with the Old Testament and that the fulfillment of the ancient promises came in Jesus Christ; and be it further

Resolved, That we avoid the recurring pitfall of recrimination (as illustrated by the remarks of Luther and many of the early church fathers) against those who do not respond positively to our evangelistic efforts; and be it finally

Resolved, That, in that light, we personally and individually adopt Luther’s final attitude toward the Jewish people, as evidenced in his last sermon: “We want to treat them with Christian love and to pray for them, so that they might become converted and would receive the Lord” (Weimar edition, Vol. 51, p. 195).

Luther’s anti-jewish statements, as well as that of other Christians of his time, before, and since, are to be roundly and thoroughly condemned. It is clear that the Nazi’s tried to use Luther’s writings to support their crimes, though the influence of Luther’s writings can be overstated, as well as understated.

The lesson, at least for me, is that for most of Luther’s life he spoke well of the Jews, to the point of being chastized by some for doing so. But what is remembered are the cruel words, not the kind ones. With that in mind, my next post.

Jon

 

[JonNC]

To OneTrueCathApos:

In my last post to you, I included some harsh, perhaps cruel words. By comparing you to Jack Chick, I wrongfully tried to ascribe motive to you, which I am incapable of doing, as I do not know you or your heart. The comments were from anger at what you were writing, but that is no excuse.

While I do not agree with what you say, I apologize for for my reaction, and the words that followed. I pray for you His peace.

Jon