Is This What Protestantism Is Really About??

[OneTrueCathApos]

Well writing in caps usually means you’re YELLING at me as per internet etiquette. And thanks for using quotations in calling me a “Roman Catholic.” I guess that means that you have the personal qualifications and powers given you to judge how “Catholic” I am. I would not presume to do that to you. This is the problem we’re facing right now in CAF and in circles like these. We’re judging just how Catholic a person is. It stinks. I never said that Protestantism is a “good thing.” Can you please go find that in my post? My point was that protestantism significantly contributed to the development of Western Civilization and democracy. Surely as an intelligent person you can agree with that, correct? The Reformation led to the rise of nations, a separation of church and state, new focus on secular art, secular science, and individual freedoms all that didn’t exist in that manner or at that level during the Middle Ages. Martin Luther is considered heroic by many because he risked his life to fight for what he believed in. He was courageous and I believe sincere in his desire to get European society right with God. You can yawn and shrug all you want with me and judge how good or evil a person I am all you want as well. You don’t know me. You also don’t know Martin Luther or the reformers. I think it’s important to always assume that your adversaries or opponents have good intentions. Disagree with a person but don’t assume they have no character or bad motives. I think Luther had a very dark side and many dubious opinions. I have a vast myriad of disagreements with this guy. I simply happen to find many of his actions heroic.

I also resent you telling me that I need to go and study the doctors of the church and learn my faith. It’s arrogant, condescending, and assumes that I have not already. I have read a great deal, friend, and have come to different conclusions than you at times apparently. Instead of deciding and judging my sincerity or motives, just disagree with me. Notice I haven’t used any caps or yelled?

When you said that Martin Luther changed the Gospel to fit his views and own mindset, the same could be said by protestants about Catholicism. It’s not that simple. You claim the Church has never made mistakes or errors. Some would disagree with that statement. I hope they don’t, though, or risk receiving a condescending, arrogant post like the one I just finished responding to!

**Your own profile states that you are ROMAN CATHOLIC.
**I do NOT agree with Martin Luther, I do not agree his contribution of divorcing himself from the true church Christ founded to establish the Reformation, is anything but a troubled, manipulative, power hungry, wanna-be-prophet who caused an uprise in the Catholic church. What nerve he had to change the Doctrines of the Catholic church when the church had them for 2,000 years untouched and unblemished handed from Apostle guided by the Holy Spirit.
The church as far as the Word of God HAS NEVER CHANGED a single syllable. Doctrines never change. Do I think there were some bad popes? Well, out of 266 popes, 68 are saints, 12 were so-called “bad” and I even think that number’s high.
And BTW, I NEVER met a “Roman Catholic” whose had so much bad to say about the church that Christ founded.
There is a book out titled “Catholicism For Dummies”, I suggest you read it.

 

[OneTrueCathApos]

So moral relativism wouldn’t have happened if Catholics had stayed in charge of the West? People are people, sins and all…and I disagree with you a bit. Not all protestants are ignorant of history as you assume. I have debated with some that are mind-bogglingly astute and well-studied in history. You’re right that the rise of nations played a role in the reformation but it was not the sole impetus or purpose of the reformation. Maybe Luther, Calvin, Cranmer, Zwingli, and the rest actually believed in what they fought for?

If you so strongly agree with these heretics, why aren’t you in a Protestant church? Then you can’t complain about the Holy Catholic church in which Jesus Christ founded.

 

[OneTrueCathApos]

OneTrueCathApol, your posts in this thread sound like Chick tracts.

Nuff said.

Rebuke intended.

Wake up, fellow. Don’t be a “noisy gong or a clanging cymbal.” (1 Cor 13:1)

God bless us all with the virtue of charity,

Ruthie

"Always be ready to take a defense, for the hope that is in you"–St. Peter

 

[OneTrueCathApos]

The idea of “accepting Jesus as ones Personal Savior” began with the revivalism of the 19th century. It was completely unknown before that.

Luther did not translate metanoia “do better”. He translated it “repent” which is what it means. Jerome erred when he translated it “do penance”.

Here is St. John Chrysostom on the Jews:

And that’s just one quote, he wrote and delivered eight Homilies Against the Jews. the quotation here is from the first. I didn’t have to look far.

I don’t point this out to exonerate Luther but to point out that such rhetoric was quite common through all ages of the church and it is just as right to single Chrysostom out for it as Luther.

This is taken from an Anti-Catholic website and doesn’t appear to be true.

 

[jb80]

This is taken from an Anti-Catholic website and doesn’t appear to be true.

I don’t think Fordham.edu, a Jesuit University website, exactly qualifies as being anti-catholic…

Look, I’m sure you have the best intentions, but this is not the right way to approach it at all. Starting a topic that attacks people is not the way to try to convince them to see things your way…

 

[OneTrueCathApos]

I don’t think Fordham.edu, a Jesuit University website, exactly qualifies as being anti-catholic…

Look, I’m sure you have the best intentions, but this is not the right way to approach it at all. Starting a topic that attacks people is not the way to try to convince them to see things your way…

Excuse me, I have not started a thread with the intentions of "attacking " people. This isn’t about seeing things “my way” but about seeing things that are historical facts and taken from the mouth himself, namely Martin Luther. I’ll say it again, is this what Protestanism really about?

 

[notsmart]

"Always be ready to take a defense, for the hope that is in you"–St. Peter

Correction:

Always be ready to make a defense for the hope that is in you

Guess that rules out launching an offense.

Peter is telling us that we are to defend the gospel message.

 

[With_Questions]

**Martin Luther:

“If men believe in Christ and accept Him as their personal savior, His justice will be imputed to them and they will go straight to Heaven. It does not matter what evil they have done during their lives. It does not matter whether they are, or not, repentful of their sins. It does not matter at the moment of their death whether they have contrition or not, or if they are in a state of Grace. If they accepted Christ as their “personal” Savior, they will be saved.”

“I do not wish to see or hear anything of Moses. If we allow the Ten commandments any influence on our conscience they become the cloak of evil, heretics, and blasphemers. If Moses should intimidate you with his Ten Commandments, tell him right off to chase himself to the Jews. Moses should forever be looked about with suspicion, even as a heretic, damned, even worse than the pope and the devil.”

Luther changed Scriptures so that wherever it said to “do pennance”, he wrote, “to do better”. In Acts 19:18 where it says, “Many of them came and confessing their sins”, he wrote, “They came acknowledging the miracles of the Apostles.” In the Annunciation where it said “Full of Grace”, he changed it to “Thou gracious one”. In Romans where it said “We account a man to be justified by faith”, he wrote “We hold man justified by faith alone without the works of the Law”.

When questioned about his addition of the word “alone” he stated,

“If your pope annoys you with the word, tell him that I will have it that way. Popes and asses are one and the same thing. To the devil with anyone who censures my translation without my will or knowledge. I will have it that way. I am the doctor of all the doctors of popidom. These popish asses are not able to appreciate my labors.”

Regarding the Jews, he wrote,

“Burn their Synagogues and schools. Put them on fire, their homes, their prayer books and their Rabbi’s.”**

Yup this is what “Protestantism” is all about.

We try to keep this stuff hidden so that only the insiders know about it. Once you are a fully indoctrinated Protestant and we can trust you with our secrets, then you get to know what we really are all about.

But you’re onto us OneTrueCathApos. I don’t know how you did it, but you uncovered us.

Curses. Foiled again.

 

[FollowTheWay]

Luther basically started Protestantism and the Lutheran religion is apart of it still, so yes. I believe you should live like a christian (christ-like) or live like a catholic ( be a universal church) but I dont go for religion I go for relationship, this relationship is defined by the Lord not by man

 

[OneTrueCathApos]

Luther basically started Protestantism and the Lutheran religion is apart of it still, so yes. I believe you should live like a christian (christ-like) or live like a catholic ( be a universal church) but I dont go for religion I go for relationship, this relationship is defined by the Lord not by man

Let me point out that Catholics were the first Christians. There wasn’t a Protestant around to see the light of day. So please stop dividing the word “Christians” and then you add “The Catholics”. Catholics are more Christ like than anyone because we are in the church Jesus founded.
Catholic means “Universal”, which means everyone should be in the Universal church. If you agree, then why aren’t you in Christ’s Universal church?
Every religion is man-made except for the Catholic church…unless you call Jesus the man.

 

[notsmart]

Luther basically started Protestantism and the Lutheran religion is apart of it still, so yes. I believe you should live like a christian (christ-like) or live like a catholic ( be a universal church) but I dont go for religion I go for relationship, this relationship is defined by the Lord not by man

Everyone should strive to be christ-like.
catholic and non catholic christians agree on this.
Religion is not a four letter word that one should shun as if it is the tool of Satan.
Relationships are defined by the Lord. Covenants are defined by the Lord.
Let me ask you why you are feeling so superior to your fellow christians, in that you don’t “stoop” to a religion.
And, what makes you think that Lutherans, or Catholics or any other Christian community is unable or void of a “relationship” as you claim to have?

 

[O.S.Luke]

Let me point out that Catholics were the first Christians. There wasn’t a Protestant around to see the light of day. So please stop dividing the word “Christians” and then you add “The Catholics”. Catholics are more Christ like than anyone because we are in the church Jesus founded.
Catholic means “Universal”, which means everyone should be in the Universal church. If you agree, then why aren’t you in Christ’s Universal church?
Every religion is man-made except for the Catholic church…unless you call Jesus the man.

You’ve yet to answer questions about the sources of your quotes - which discredits you, OneFalseCathApos.

I have worlds of respect for the Catholic Church. But you sir, are underhanded and false in your assertions.

 

[OneTrueCathApos]

You’ve yet to answer questions about the sources of your quotes - which discredits you, OneFalseCathApos.

I have worlds of respect for the Catholic Church. But you sir, are underhanded and false in your assertions.

The sources of my quotes as I already told you is the Biography of Luther and his other works. And?

 

[TotallyConfused]

To OneTrueCathApos

I think deep down you started this thread because you love Catholicism and you don’t like to see anyone go against it. And in your mind the biggest culprit is Luther.

But….the way you go about stating that and subsequently defend your statements leaves much to be desired.

First you gotta lay off the upper case letters. It’s super-disrespectful and gets you nowhere, and leaves people being insulted.

Then, you gotta use quotes that you can prove.

Then, you gotta stop attacking people who does not have your exact same point of view.
Honestly, you are coming across as a zealot. Someone feeling so strong about his position that he will draw his sword at the first sign of opposition. Uncool Dude.

It seems like you are about ready to go and do bodily harm to protestants you come across in the streets! Simmer down buddy.

Everyone is entitled to their opinion. There will be many, many opinions that you don’t agree with…don’t pick a fight with each of them.

You think what the Catholic Church teaches is 100% right. Sure, that’s your opinion. Other people have their opinion. And the debates on that issue has been going on for centuries….you are not going to solve that debate, and you are most certainly not going to solve it in the attacking manner you are following.

Gurneyhalleck1 made some good points on his influence and role in western society and I think to shut him and other posters down the way you did is not the way to go, it’s not the way be credible, it’s not the way to earn respect and it’s not the way to act Christ-like at all.

Why don’t you try again in a new thread, ok?

 

[emeraldcoast]

Yup this is what “Protestantism” is all about.

We try to keep this stuff hidden so that only the insiders know about it. Once you are a fully indoctrinated Protestant and we can trust you with our secrets, then you get to know what we really are all about.

But you’re onto us OneTrueCathApos. I don’t know how you did it, but you uncovered us.

Curses. Foiled again.

Do you think that we are going to have to get a new secret handshake??

 

[JRKH]

…yes if you like architectural disasters and religious heresy.

forget about doctrinal arguments. The reformation was a rebellion against foreign (papal) influence. Kings and other leaders used the excuse of the reformation to take control and nationalize the churches (which is not “Biblical”, if you know what I mean).
Yes, and look what it has wrought – we have in Europe and the US a general idea that “you believe what you want, leave me alone.” This is RELATIVISM with a capital R. The doctrinal differences came after the rebellion against papal and church authority. A lot of protestants don’t even have a cultural memory about how they got where they are.

They act like the Bible popped out of the sky and it was obvious what to do with it.

The Bolded above is an often overlooked or minimized fact of the entire Protestant Revolution.
Thank you for mentioning it.

Peace
James

 

[Contarini]

Excuse me, I have not started a thread with the intentions of "attacking " people. This isn’t about seeing things “my way” but about seeing things that are historical facts

Balderdash. When soundly refuted from primary sources, you make the ludicrous claim that Fordham University’s excellent sourcebook is an “anti-Catholic website.”

You aren’t interested in facts. If you were, you would discuss the evidence presented instead of yelling “anti-Catholic” when primary sources are cited that refute your onesided view of history.

Edwin

 

[OneTrueCathApos]

Balderdash. When soundly refuted from primary sources, you make the ludicrous claim that Fordham University’s excellent sourcebook is an “anti-Catholic website.”

You aren’t interested in facts. If you were, you would discuss the evidence presented instead of yelling “anti-Catholic” when primary sources are cited that refute your onesided view of history.

Edwin

Bottom line…it is what it is…

 

[OneTrueCathApos]

To OneTrueCathApos

I think deep down you started this thread because you love Catholicism and you don’t like to see anyone go against it. And in your mind the biggest culprit is Luther.

But….the way you go about stating that and subsequently defend your statements leaves much to be desired.

First you gotta lay off the upper case letters. It’s super-disrespectful and gets you nowhere, and leaves people being insulted.

Then, you gotta use quotes that you can prove.

Then, you gotta stop attacking people who does not have your exact same point of view.
Honestly, you are coming across as a zealot. Someone feeling so strong about his position that he will draw his sword at the first sign of opposition. Uncool Dude.

It seems like you are about ready to go and do bodily harm to protestants you come across in the streets! Simmer down buddy.

Everyone is entitled to their opinion. There will be many, many opinions that you don’t agree with…don’t pick a fight with each of them.

You think what the Catholic Church teaches is 100% right. Sure, that’s your opinion. Other people have their opinion. And the debates on that issue has been going on for centuries….you are not going to solve that debate, and you are most certainly not going to solve it in the attacking manner you are following.

Gurneyhalleck1 made some good points on his influence and role in western society and I think to shut him and other posters down the way you did is not the way to go, it’s not the way be credible, it’s not the way to earn respect and it’s not the way to act Christ-like at all.

Why don’t you try again in a new thread, ok?

I think that you are just, well…totallyconfused.

 

[jmcrae]

The majority of Protestants living today have no idea what Martin Luther taught, and don’t even consider him relevant to their faith or to their lives. So, whether he taught the stuff that you quoted or not, doesn’t even matter, because Protestants don’t get their teachings from him, anyway.

As to what “Protestantism” teaches, it varies from denomination to denomination, and even from preacher to preacher - there is no set standard of “Protestant doctrines” - such a thing does not exist.