Is tithing feasible in modern society?

[Socrates92]

I don’t think you understand rural poor and the costs of running transit in a radius of 20+ miles from town. It isn’t cheaper than owning a car.

Look at it this way. It’s about population density. In a city you can have 1,000 people in a 5 mile area (so 25 sq miles). You’re looking at 40 people per mile. If everyone pays $20 for a monthly bus pass that’s several hundred dollars per mile…enough to maintain a bus, pay drivers, etc.

In a rural area you might have 200 people in a 20 mile area (400 sq miles). That’s half a person per mile. A $20 bus pass, therefore, would not even cover fuel

Yes, so the solution probably wouldn’t involve a _conventional_bus system. Maybe it would start up with smaller vehicles. Btw, what kind of figure are you using for yearly driving expenses? $20/month is only $240/yr. I tend to think of driving costs as being somewhere between 10-20x this, or more.

 

[Xanthippe_Voorhees]

Xanthippe_Voorhees:

In a rural area you might have 200 people in a 20 mile area (400 sq miles). That’s half a person per mile. A $20 bus pass, therefore, would not even cover fuel.

Yes, so the solution probably wouldn’t involve a conventional bus system.

The only way I see it being feisable is driverless cars. Then you’re down to maintience and gas and not paying a person. In a rural area, this would be ideal, opposed to a route in the city which may benefit from having a person.

Remember, even the highly successful Uber and Lift have trouble in rural areas.

 

[DarkLight]

The sprawl really is the biggest issue. So I might actually be the only one in my tiny town who needs to go into a specific area for work - and then the next person might be 15min away to be picked up, and only one there, and so forth. You end up with a situation where you’d effectively be running a taxi service more than anything else, and there’s a reason that private car ownership really is cheaper than using a taxi on a regular basis.

 

[Socrates92]

The only way I see it being feisable is driverless cars. Then you’re down to maintience and gas and not paying a person. In a rural area, this would be ideal, opposed to a route in the city which may benefit from having a person.

Right, so maybe the most that can be done at the moment is some uber-like technology reducing costs for those that happen to have overlapping routes.

 

[JoeFreedom]

I liked your comment LittleLady. I personally like to try and increase what I give every year a little bit, exactly like how you describe… Just a little bit more, and do that over and over again…

I know how much I give at church each month, so I just up it some the following year. I think this is both a good way to gradually and slowly increase what you give so it isn’t so demanding by trying to do so much all at once (and it also a good way to save and pay down debt). I’m not saying this to toot my own horn, but doing the “boil a lobster” approach makes me not miss it, because I do little bits at a time. Once I start not having that little bit of extra money, it just sort of makes it’s way out of the spending budget. This way I don’t have to really work so hard at the will of doing it all at once. I find it works for me.

Just my two cents

 

[Xanthippe_Voorhees]

Xanthippe_Voorhees:

I don’t think you understand rural poor and the costs of running transit in a radius of 20+ miles from town. It isn’t cheaper than owning a car.

Look at it this way. It’s about population density. In a city you can have 1,000 people in a 5 mile area (so 25 sq miles). You’re looking at 40 people per mile. If everyone pays $20 for a monthly bus pass that’s several hundred dollars per mile…enough to maintain a bus, pay drivers, etc.

In a rural area you might have 200 people in a 20 mile area (400 sq miles). That’s half a person per mile. A $20 bus pass, therefore, would not even cover fuel

Yes, so the solution probably wouldn’t involve a _conventional_bus system. Maybe it would start up with smaller vehicles. Btw, what kind of figure are you using for yearly driving expenses? $20/month is only $240/yr. I tend to think of driving costs as being somewhere between 10-20x this, or more.

$20 a month is the fee for the handicapped/child fee in a nearby metro. However, most people have cars that can carry their entire families. Adults are more like $50. So for a two adult, two kid family you’re looking at $140 a month. In a city, one could make arguments for or against cars. But there is just no way that per capita you could fund even a simple bus system in rural areas. That’s the point. People in cities have options due to their density.

It is affordable to run a bus in a city because you have enough people to pay and contribute per mile. 40 people per square mile at $20 each nets the bus company $800 or about $26 per day, per mile covered on the average 30 day month.

But when you have half a person per mile at $20 or a total of $10 a month or 33 CENTS a day per mile covered in a 30 day month.

Again, taxis often can’t make enough money in rural areas. Nor can Uber or Lift. People who are willing to do things basically for nothing. That tells you something.

 

[Socrates92]

$20 a month is the fee for the handicapped/child fee in a nearby metro. However, most people have cars that can carry their entire families. Adults are more like $50. So for an two adult, two kid family you’re looking at $140 a month. In a city, one could make arguments for or against cars. But there is just no way that per capita you could fund even a simple bus system in rural areas. That’s the point.

Ok, but I was asking more about the costs of car ownership for comparison’s sake. In Canadian terms, for a 30mile roundtrip, I would presume yearly expenses would be something like this: 30mi x $0.50/mi x 2 x 250days + $1500 (insurance) ~ $9,000/yr
whereas, the standard bus pass is $1000-1200/yr - although in an urban area an argument could be made for charging, say, 4 or 5 times this and it would still be under the car figure

 

[Socrates92]

Taxis are inefficient because they generally only carry one passenger. Also, there are expensive licensing requirements, etc.

 

[Xanthippe_Voorhees]

Xanthippe_Voorhees:

$20 a month is the fee for the handicapped/child fee in a nearby metro. However, most people have cars that can carry their entire families. Adults are more like $50. So for an two adult, two kid family you’re looking at $140 a month. In a city, one could make arguments for or against cars. But there is just no way that per capita you could fund even a simple bus system in rural areas. That’s the point.

Ok, but I was asking more about the costs of car ownership for comparison’s sake. In Canadian terms, for a 30mile roundtrip, I would presume yearly expenses would be something like this: 30mi x $0.50/mi x 2 x 250days + $1500 (insurance) ~ $9,000/yr
whereas, the standard bus pass is $1000-1200/yr - although in an urban area an argument could be made for charging, say, 4 or 5 times this and it would still be under the car figure

I’m looking at the factors on the bus side. A person in a city isn’t going to have to travel 30 miles to do anything…whereas a person in a rural area is going to have to travel 30 miles round trip to do everything. The cost per mile is prohibitive.

 

[Socrates92]

Socrates92:

Xanthippe_Voorhees:

$20 a month is the fee for the handicapped/child fee in a nearby metro. However, most people have cars that can carry their entire families. Adults are more like $50. So for an two adult, two kid family you’re looking at $140 a month. In a city, one could make arguments for or against cars. But there is just no way that per capita you could fund even a simple bus system in rural areas. That’s the point.

Ok, but I was asking more about the costs of car ownership for comparison’s sake. In Canadian terms, for a 30mile roundtrip, I would presume yearly expenses would be something like this: 30mi x $0.50/mi x 2 x 250days + $1500 (insurance) ~ $9,000/yr

whereas, the standard bus pass is $1000-1200/yr - although in an urban area an argument could be made for charging, say, 4 or 5 times this and it would still be under the car figure

I’m looking at the factors on the bus side. A person in a city isn’t going to have to travel 30 miles to do anything…whereas a person in a rural area is going to have to travel 30 miles round trip to do everything. The cost per mile is prohibitive.

Ok, but driving costs money per mile as well, although many people don’t think about it that way, because the cash flows in lump payments.

 

[Xanthippe_Voorhees]

Taxis are inefficient because they generally only carry one passenger. Also, there are expensive licensing requirements, etc.

Again, the logistics systems should make Uber and Lyft feasible then…but it doesn’t. They don’t have the licensing requirements. The tech should be there. But it still isn’t working because humans are expensive.

Driverless cars, I tell you.

 

[Xanthippe_Voorhees]

Ok, but driving costs money per mile as well, although many people don’t think about it that way, because the cash flows in lump payments.

Yes, driving costs money per mile. But you’re doing the labor yourself, so it’s going to be cheaper unless you can pool your money with other people and have such a large group of money you can pay someone to do the labor for you. When empty buses run in a city, they are most likely going to have a paying customer within a mile. In rural areas you’d be paying for a person to drive dozens of miles for no other reason besides getting the car/minivan/bus to the person who needs it.

 

[DarkLight]

Yeah, when I had to have a bus pass it was $50/month for a pass for an individual.

A ridesharing program might actually be a good idea, but I doubt it would completely eliminate the need for individual vehicles. Don’t forget there are other costs than commuting to work - you have to go to the store and the doctor, if you have kids they have to be taken to school and activities, all sorts of things.

For car costs: I’m paying less than $100 a year for my insurance (mind, that’s with a completely clean driving record for someone over 25). Most of my commute is highway, so I’m likely doing about 33mpg, at $2.40 for a gallon, so I’m paying closer to $0.07/mile for gas. If you have a decent car, budget around $500 a year for repairs. So I think your numbers may be bit high for car ownership down here as well.

 

[Socrates92]

Again, the logistics systems should make Uber and Lyft feasible then…but it doesn’t. They don’t have the licensing requirements. The tech should be there. But it still isn’t working because humans are expensive.

Driverless cars, I tell you.

I’m with you on driverless cars… maybe… still making up my mind how much that idea creeps me out. ;/

I think the idea towards profit needs to change for this particular problem. Taxis aren’t feasible because they are run as standard businesses; drivers operate similar to other employees in that they carry out an activity that they otherwise would not, and expect to make a certain (albeit variable) amount for a certain amount of time put in. The time spent (and expense incurred) has no other purpose for them except to earn a wage or profit.

A more feasible model would be built on reducing costs, rather than earning a profit in the usual sense. A driver who makes $.50/mi traveling a route that he would otherwise travel anyways saves $.50/mi. The equivalent taxi driver (or standard uber driver for that matter) would not be able to cover upkeep, gas, insurance, etc, let alone turn a profit on this.

 

[Xanthippe_Voorhees]

Yeah, when I had to have a bus pass it was $50/month for a pass for an individual.

A ridesharing program might actually be a good idea, but I doubt it would completely eliminate the need for individual vehicles. Don’t forget there are other costs than commuting to work - you have to go to the store and the doctor, if you have kids they have to be taken to school and activities, all sorts of things.

For car costs: I’m paying less than $100 a year for my insurance (mind, that’s with a completely clean driving record for someone over 25). Most of my commute is highway, so I’m likely doing about 33mpg, at $2.40 for a gallon, so I’m paying closer to $0.07/mile for gas. If you have a decent car, budget around $500 a year for repairs. So I think your numbers may be bit high for car ownership down here as well.

I don’t know how you’re getting $100 a year for insurance–mine is more like $400. My car does about 30mpg, so similar to you. You’re about right on repairs, I have an 2010…and even if you factor in cost (it was 6k used) per year, I’ve had it for 3 years so that’s 2k this year. I spend about $600 in gas…which has been floating around $2 a gal near me–around 8k miles a year. Oh and registration–about 100.

so 2k + $400+$600+$500+$100 is around $3,600 not near 9k. Considering I often have my husband and more than one kid with me (sometimes mommy gets to go to the grocery store all by herself!!! ) that’s a breakdown of about $900 per person annually to go wherever I want, when I want and not on anyone else’s schedule. Considering that I drive about 8k annually a year that’s like 11 cents per mile per person. Which would be like a person on a $50 bus pass traveling about 5,400 miles annually—which is ludicrous…that’s over 15 miles a day every day of the week.

 

[Socrates92]

Yeah, when I had to have a bus pass it was $50/month for a pass for an individual.

A ridesharing program might actually be a good idea, but I doubt it would completely eliminate the need for individual vehicles. Don’t forget there are other costs than commuting to work - you have to go to the store and the doctor, if you have kids they have to be taken to school and activities, all sorts of things.

For car costs: I’m paying less than $100 a year for my insurance (mind, that’s with a completely clean driving record for someone over 25). Most of my commute is highway, so I’m likely doing about 33mpg, at $2.40 for a gallon, so I’m paying closer to $0.07/mile for gas. If you have a decent car, budget around $500 a year for repairs. So I think your numbers may be bit high for car ownership down here as well.

Maybe. I was just using the IRS mileage estimate rounded down. (Their estimate is $.535/mile as of 2017). Without context, it gives me a nice number which I can presumably apply to the average case.

However, that’s some cheap gas; I’m envious. It’s about twice that here. Also, $100/yr for insurance!?!? Are you sure you didn’t forget a zero? How much does the decent car cost initially? (including financing costs if you didn’t buy it outright) You have to add that averaged over its expected lifespan, added to annual repair costs to get a truly accurate measure. Driving does seem to be relatively cheaper where you are though, so maybe my negative impression is skewed.

 

[Xanthippe_Voorhees]

Xanthippe_Voorhees:

Again, the logistics systems should make Uber and Lyft feasible then…but it doesn’t. They don’t have the licensing requirements. The tech should be there. But it still isn’t working because humans are expensive.

Driverless cars, I tell you.

I’m with you on driverless cars… maybe… still making up my mind how much that idea creeps me out. ;/

I think the idea towards profit needs to change for this particular problem. Taxis aren’t feasible because they are run as standard businesses; drivers operate similar to other employees in that they carry out an activity that they otherwise would not, and expect to make a certain (albeit variable) amount for a certain amount of time put in. The time spent (and expense incurred) has no other purpose for them except to earn a wage or profit.

A more feasible model would be built on reducing costs, rather than earning a profit in the usual sense. A driver who makes $.50/mi traveling a route that he would otherwise travel anyways saves $.50/mi. The equivalent taxi driver (or standard uber driver for that matter) would not be able to cover upkeep, gas, insurance, etc, let alone turn a profit on this.

So what you’re suggesting is a government subsidy. Should the city people subsidize rural areas? Their prices would likely more than quadruple to even get close to breaking even. And professional driving isn’t exatly unskilled labor.

 

[Xanthippe_Voorhees]

Maybe. I was just using the IRS mileage estimate rounded down. (Their estimate is $.535/mile as of 2017). Without context, it gives me a nice number which I can presumably apply to the average case.

However, that’s some cheap gas; I’m envious. It’s about twice that here. How much does the decent car cost initially? (including financing costs if you didn’t buy it outright) You have to add that averaged over its expected lifespan, added to annual repair costs to get a truly accurate measure.

Decent new small car (sedan) expect to have no issues for about 3 years—around $20k.

Used small car 3-5 years old, about 6-10k–expect about $500 in repairs a year

Used small car 5-10 years old, 3-7k—expect about 1k in repairs a year.

Of course, you can get even lower on used if you do peer to peer and not small dealership.

Most dealerships offer no financing fees and 0% interest on new cars for 2 years. Used cars also, mostly get no financing fees and around 2-4% APR depending on credit score.

 

[Socrates92]

Decent new small car (sedan) expect to have no issues for about 3 years—around $20k.

Used small car 3-5 years old, about 6-10k–expect about $500 in repairs a year

Used small car 5-10 years old, 3-7k—expect about 1k in repairs a year.

Of course, you can get even lower on used if you do peer to peer and not small dealership.

Most dealerships offer no financing fees and 0% interest on new cars for 2 years. Used cars also, mostly get no financing fees and around 2-4% APR depending on credit score.

Ok, one more piece. You said you have insurance for under $100/yr. You meant $1000, right? (still <1/2 of what I’d expect to pay at age 25)

 

[Xanthippe_Voorhees]

Xanthippe_Voorhees:

Decent new small car (sedan) expect to have no issues for about 3 years—around $20k.

Used small car 3-5 years old, about 6-10k–expect about $500 in repairs a year

Used small car 5-10 years old, 3-7k—expect about 1k in repairs a year.

Of course, you can get even lower on used if you do peer to peer and not small dealership.

Most dealerships offer no financing fees and 0% interest on new cars for 2 years. Used cars also, mostly get no financing fees and around 2-4% APR depending on credit score.

Ok, one more piece. You said you have insurance for under $100/yr. You meant $1000, right? (still <1/2 of what I’d expect to pay at age 25)

Darklight gets hers for under $100.

Mine is under $400. Actually, it was last time I got it by myself it was around $380 annually I think. My husband and I don’t even pay $1,000 annually for both of us…it’s around $700ish…and quite frankly, at this point, that’s mostly him. He was paying $600 a year before we got married. (same company, same coverage) When he added me it was only an extra $100 year. In reality, that’s because when a guy gets married their insurance drops significantly…so it’s probably more like $300 me and $400 for him.

As a note, there are few things that factor in. I have comp, collision, glass, roadside and a $200 deductible. If I just had comp and had something like a 1k deductible, I could see insurance being south of $200 annually.

My city registration is under $100.