Is toplessness sinfull

[Phil_Marinus]

I Agree…

If I see my step daughter without a top does that make me a Sinner... Nope.

I have no lustful thoughts about her at all… not even .000001 %
Does it make her a sinner ? doubt it…
It’s all up to you ,yourself as an individual … it’s all about contex …
don’t look for sin at every human whatever…

 

[ClearWater]

So typical of north-americans to go the close-minded pervert approach on the subject. Boobies are not some kind of sin cannons shooting hellfire sin-rays at anyone looking :doh2: The more taboo you put on showing skin the more tempting and sexually loaded it will get.

Someone who is used to toplessness will not give in to lustfull thougths/fantasies at the mere sigth of someone suntanning… Get yourself together. Our lord made us naked in the beginning, why should it be such an astonishingly extreme source of shame? And don’t think of me as a nudist now… come on I am talking about the beach not being topless in the general store…

It is fun and rejuvenating, aswell as it is optional. And if you can’t handle it then by all means, hop into that jumpsuit of yours and stay away from the beaches, problem solved?

Edit: I am assuming the OP is talking about the beachgoing holiday aspect of european toplessness. Because if you are talking about walking in the city exposed i have no clue what continent you are refering to as Europe

I see from your post that you list yourself as Catholic. The Catechism of the Catholic Church talks about modesty. The Bible spoke, again and again, about modesty. The saints spoke repeatedly about modesty.

In fact, one saint had a vision about hell, and the woman in question was condemned to hell for all eternity for simply wearing the fashion of that day! So, I tend to think it’d be even more so for someone who went naked from the waist up.

Granted, you may be from a country where this all seems “normal” to you.

Yes, Our Lord created us naked from the beginning, and at that time, we had no shame in our nakedness. However, keep in mind, we are now AFTER the fall of Adam and Eve, NOT before! After the fall of Adam, this all changed. Once they ate of the fruit of good and evil, neither could withstand being in the presence of God without clothing. They both ran to cover themselves!

After that, modesty suddenly became an issue. Now, if you want to listen to the pagans on morality, that’s your decision. However, if you are truly Catholic, the Church, popes, Bible, Catechism have all said in so many words it’s NOT okay to go topless, no matter what they may be doing at this time in Europe!

Further, Our Lady of Fatima (one of the very few accepted apparitions of the Blessed Virgin Mary), have said Our Lord does NOT change and she predicted that there would be some fashions which would be very offensive to God. However, she implored us not to follow these.

Again, as a Catholic, I invite you to research this for yourself. You don’t have to take my word for it. Here’s a link which gives the exact position of the Church on this issue:

vatican.va/archive/ccc_css/archive/catechism/p3s2c2a9.htm

Scroll down to 2521.

This is in violation of the 9th commandment, specifically.

One saint asked us who is more at fault in sexual sin, the one who set the trap or the one who fell into it? He thought the one who set this trap was actually MORE responsible than the one who fell.

Men are notoriously visual. That’s why so many like porn. We’ve had a man on this forum admit that he can feel aroused just from seeing a lady in tight hot pants and that his reaction was immediate.

Some men have complained how difficult it has been in modern times remaining pure when temptation was everywhere.

We are not even supposed to THINK impure thoughts! Now, you’re saying it’s normal in some countries, that therefore nobody gets aroused. I doubt that.

One way to put something to the test is to ask the question if the saints, or the Blessed Virgin Mary, lived today, would they do this. Can you see ANY of the saints doing this, or promoting this? If not, it’s probably something we don’t want to be doing.

Lastly, you don’t have to take my word on this. If you have a question about this, go ask your priest!

 

[bilop]

Can someone please explain to me why a woman would want to let a bunch of strangers see her topless?

God Bless

 

[Phalanx]

In fact, one saint had a vision about hell, and the woman in question was condemned to hell for all eternity for simply wearing the fashion of that day! So, I tend to think it’d be even more so for someone who went naked from the waist up.

“2524: The forms taken by modesty vary from one culture to another.”

Question. If i were to move to Rhode Island tomorrow. Will I be cast to hell for my fashionable clothing while living in Sweden? Maybe i should go live with the natives in New Guinea, then i should be safe. Because by their cultural modesty standards i would probably be the most prude person they laid eyes upon

Yes, Our Lord created us naked from the beginning, and at that time, we had no shame in our nakedness. However, keep in mind, we are now AFTER the fall of Adam and Eve, NOT before! After the fall of Adam, this all changed. Once they ate of the fruit of good and evil, neither could withstand being in the presence of God without clothing. They both ran to cover themselves!

Soooo… what exactly would they have to confess? Of being naked or being ashamed of being naked? Both? Then why were they naked?

After that, modesty suddenly became an issue. Now, if you want to listen to the pagans on morality, that’s your decision. However, if you are truly Catholic, the Church, popes, Bible, Catechism have all said in so many words it’s NOT okay to go topless, no matter what they may be doing at this time in Europe!

Frankly you have no buisness comparing me to pagans or pondering wether i am a true Catholic or not. Kindly mind your pride sister.

Further, Our Lady of Fatima (one of the very few accepted apparitions of the Blessed Virgin Mary), have said Our Lord does NOT change and she predicted that there would be some fashions which would be very offensive to God. However, she implored us not to follow these.

I do not consider being topless at a beach for the sake of ones suntan as a fashion choice. We are not debating if “Borat” suits are ok to wear in public here.
As i stated in previous post i am writing here with the assumption that the OP is talking about beachgoers, because there is nothing topless about europe on the streets.

Men are notoriously visual. That’s why so many like porn. We’ve had a man on this forum admit that he can feel aroused just from seeing a lady in tight hot pants and that his reaction was immediate.

Im glad that you have all men figured out. I wish I knew as much about women, because i see no reason why girls drool over muscles and six-pack abs… right?

Some men have complained how difficult it has been in modern times remaining pure when temptation was everywhere.

We are not even supposed to THINK impure thoughts! Now, you’re saying it’s normal in some countries, that therefore nobody gets aroused. I doubt that.

You are overestimating the word normal… Most women are NOT topless. And yes of course someone will get aroused. But it is not like everyone gets all fired up and start humping. If you find it sexual then its your own struggle, dont expose yourself to it?

One way to put something to the test is to ask the question if the saints, or the Blessed Virgin Mary, lived today, would they do this. Can you see ANY of the saints doing this, or promoting this? If not, it’s probably something we don’t want to be doing.

How could i possibly know? There are so many saints.

Lastly, you don’t have to take my word on this. If you have a question about this, go ask your priest!

…what? Thanks… i guess?
Lastly. If you like ice-cream, go buy it at your store! :tiphat:

Edit: Grammar

 

[SuperLuigi]

I am puzzled.

How do they qualify as a part of the topic concerning Catholic opinion on european toplessness? And also as far as Im aware they are already in jumpsuits and away from beaches (cued in much?) so what is your point?

Well, to keep the thread from wandering too much with these specific yet understandable questions, there are two points:

First of all, Western Europe is not assimilating their immigrants.

Second, there is a problem of culture shock when visitors and aspiring residents in your country come from a place where a woman showing her ankle in public would mean criminal penalties.

I assume you mean the muslim immigrants?

Well, there’s a lot of Muslims, but really Sweden has a serious problem with non-citizen crime directed at women. Having a sexualized culture doesn’t help that cause, either.

 

[ClearWater]

“2524: The forms taken by modesty vary from one culture to another.”

Question. If i were to move to Rhode Island tomorrow. Will I be cast to hell for my fashionable clothing while living in Sweden? Maybe i should go live with the natives in New Guinea, then i should be safe. Because by their cultural modesty standards i would probably be the most prude person they laid eyes upon

Soooo… what exactly would they have to confess? Of being naked or being ashamed of being naked? Both? Then why were they naked?

Frankly you have no buisness comparing me to pagans or pondering wether i am a true Catholic or not. Kindly mind your pride sister.

I do not consider being topless at a beach for the sake of ones suntan as a fashion choice. We are not debating if “Borat” suits are ok to wear in public here.
As i stated in previous post i am writing here with the assumption that the OP is talking about beachgoers, because there is nothing topless about europe on the streets.

Im glad that you have all men figured out. I wish I knew as much about women, because i see no reason why girls drool over muscles and six-pack abs… right?

You are overestimating the word normal… Most women are NOT topless. And yes of course someone will get aroused. But it is not like everyone gets all fired up and start humping. If you find it sexual then its your own struggle, dont expose yourself to it?

How could i possibly know? There are so many saints.

…what? Thanks… i guess?
Lastly. If you like ice-cream, go buy it at your store! :tiphat:

Edit: Grammar

Accuse me of whatever sins you like. Still, the issue remaining is one of toplessness. Is it, or is it not, acceptable for Catholics?

I have shown to you that popes have spoken out against it, the Catechism, the Bible, and the saints.

This is not New Guinea where people have never heard of Jesus, the Bible, the 10 commandments, the Catechism, the pope, the saints. If they had heard of him, things might be different. God will judge them according to their circumstances. They often act out of ignorance.

You, however, are different. You have heard of Jesus, the Bible, the 10 commandments, the saints, the Catechism, and modesty. If you, after hearing all this, still refuse to accept any of this and go to the pagans, instead, for advice on morality, that’s your concern.

I just think you need to be honest with yourself. If you have absolutely no intention of listening to the Church, trying to adhere to its precepts, listening to the pope, saints, Bible, Catechism, then, why do you list yourself as “Catholic”? Catholic implies at least trying to adhere to a set of beliefs.

Modesty is one of the virtues, and for Catholics, it will never go out of style.

The ancient Jews were constantly surrounded by pagans and their beliefs and routinely adoped pagan customs. However, God kept telling them that even if everyone around them was doing what was wrong, it was no exuse. The Jews were STILL to adhere to all the 10 commandments and all the rest. “Because everyone else is doing it” was not considered a valid excuse. They knew better!

I have said what the Church believes. Now, you may try to say you don’t know what “modesty” means and make it out to be some elaborate, complex matter. If you had any questions on specifics, you could take those to your priest. You could ask him for guidelines as to what constitutes modest dress in your specific country.

I doubt you’ll go to your priest and ask him for guidelines of modesty in your country, because deep down, I don’t think you want to know, because it might mean you would need to change, something you don’t seem willing to consider at this moment in time.

 

[Havard]

So typical of north-americans to go the close-minded pervert approach on the subject. Boobies are not some kind of sin cannons shooting hellfire sin-rays at anyone looking :doh2: The more taboo you put on showing skin the more tempting and sexually loaded it will get.

Someone who is used to toplessness will not give in to lustfull thougths/fantasies at the mere sigth of someone suntanning… Get yourself together. Our lord made us naked in the beginning, why should it be such an astonishingly extreme source of shame? And don’t think of me as a nudist now… come on I am talking about the beach not being topless in the general store…

It is fun and rejuvenating, aswell as it is optional. And if you can’t handle it then by all means, hop into that jumpsuit of yours and stay away from the beaches, problem solved?

Edit: I am assuming the OP is talking about the beachgoing holiday aspect of european toplessness. Because if you are talking about walking in the city exposed i have no clue what continent you are refering to as Europe

Typical North-American close-minded pervert approach? What a charitable start.

If you think mammaries are “just another non-sexual body part”, neither science nor history are not on your side: human female breasts are secondary sexual characteristics and have been associated with sex (not just nursing, but the actual act of coitus) since at least ancient times.

I would suggest you read up on other primates and the relative functionality of breast size and shape when it comes to nursing. Ours are very poorly adapted for nursing. And as to why human female breasts are the only primates to have “permanent” breasts, whereas all other primates have temporary breastd which inflate. The Puritans certainly aren’t to blame here.

 

[Phalanx]

Typical North-American close-minded pervert approach? What a charitable start.

Someone had to spice things up

If you think mammaries are “just another non-sexual body part”, neither science nor history are not on your side: human female breasts are secondary sexual characteristics and have been associated with sex (not just nursing, but the actual act of coitus) since at least ancient times.

Im not saying that at all. Its no secret “mammaries” play a rather large part of the sexual act, but one doesn’t have to be focused on that every second.

If a 20 year old girl would go swiming topless you’d want to judge and condemn her immediatly to hell because she is being a seductive temptress sent from satan plotting to steal all husbands and damn every male soul. What if a 50+ year old woman sat and sunbathed topless? Oh then she’s also be going to hell, but for some other wierd reason…

“Hide yo kids, hide yo wife, hide yo husband, cuz they they damning everyone to hell out hea”

There is something about this topic that upsets people way more than what it should, and it boggles my mind how unsecure people seem to be with their ability to cope with skin. It seems very naive to me, but yeah. As someone posted, maybe im “wired” differently… I will not be literally aroused by random topless women on the beach. Its childish really

 

[Phalanx]

Accuse me of whatever sins you like.
I have shown to you that popes have spoken out against it, the Catechism, the Bible, and the saints.

You, however, are different. You have heard of Jesus, the Bible, the 10 commandments, the saints, the Catechism, and modesty. If you, after hearing all this, still refuse to accept any of this and go to the pagans, instead, for advice on morality, that’s your concern.

I just think you need to be honest with yourself. If you have absolutely no intention of listening to the Church, trying to adhere to its precepts, listening to the pope, saints, Bible, Catechism, then, why do you list yourself as “Catholic”? Catholic implies at least trying to adhere to a set of beliefs.

Modesty is one of the virtues, and for Catholics, it will never go out of style.

The ancient Jews were constantly surrounded by pagans and their beliefs and routinely adoped pagan customs. However, God kept telling them that even if everyone around them was doing what was wrong, it was no exuse. The Jews were STILL to adhere to all the 10 commandments and all the rest. “Because everyone else is doing it” was not considered a valid excuse. They knew better!

I have said what the Church believes. Now, you may try to say you don’t know what “modesty” means and make it out to be some elaborate, complex matter. If you had any questions on specifics, you could take those to your priest. You could ask him for guidelines as to what constitutes modest dress in your specific country.

I doubt you’ll go to your priest and ask him for guidelines of modesty in your country, because deep down, I don’t think you want to know, because it might mean you would need to change, something you don’t seem willing to consider at this moment in time.

Wow… I think that this post alone contains more judgement on me than all post in my time on the internet combined. :clapping:

I live modestly, and i encourage modesty. I listen and learn from the Pope, bible and catechism every day. However, in my understanding of sin, being topless on the beach for the sake of the sun does not qualify. And you have not confinced me otherwise.

Why do i list myself as catholic? Oh im sorry inquisitor ClearWater, ill change that right away!

 

[wcknight]

“Sin is in the eye of the beholder”. For some guys and I would say even say most guys, topless women would be sinful, especially including myself.

The exceptions of course IF it is someone you really do NOT want to see naked. Sorry to be uncharitable, BUT there are some folks who really should not be seen topless. I would think if you are over a certain age, it definitely should be illegal/immoral/maybe downright disgusting to be topless

 

[mommamaree]

Breasts DO serve a sexual function, and it is one that is even mentioned in holy Scripture. A wife’s breasts delight her husband, according to Proverbs and Song of Songs.
There are many parts of the human body which serve two-fold functions. It is not either/or. It is both/and.
Just because some cultures, including our own, attempt to reject the truth and redefine things according to their whims does not mean Catholics should ever believe the lies.

 

[ClearWater]

I live modestly, and i encourage modesty. I listen and learn from the Pope, bible and catechism every day. However, in my understanding of sin, being topless on the beach for the sake of the sun does not qualify. And you have not confinced me otherwise.

Why do i list myself as catholic? Oh im sorry inquisitor ClearWater, ill change that right away!

You encourage modesty? Look back through your thread! Not only do you not encourage modesty, but you have actively attacked anyone who has tried to defend it! Be honest with yourself and us.

You just got done telling us all it’s okay to go to topless beaches!

 

[ClearWater]

Why wouldn’t a beach qualify? What’s so different?

Can’t one get a tan without baring one’s breasts?

 

[ClearWater]

As Catholics, what the Catechism of the Catholic Church, the pope and Magesterium…priests and all, put forth, we are to ACCEPT.

It’s not okay for Catholics to be cafeteria Catholics. Christ said that he gave us these representatives. What we do to his representatives, we are doing to CHRIST! So, if we say…in essence, “I’m not going to listen to what the pope, the priests, the Catechism,” say about…topless sunbathing, or anything else. I’m going to do it anyway, go on a Catholic forum, encourage everybody else there to do it, as well, in direct defiance and disobedience to the 9th commandment and all the rest.

When we disobey our representatives of our Church, we disobey Christ!

As to “judgement”, I think you may misunderstand that.

There are a lot of people in today’s time that say, “DON’T YOU DARE JUDGE ME!” So, we have people who can commit all kinds of sins, and if anyone dares, no matter how gently and well intentioned they may be, to correct, the person will get all defensive, attack and try to accuse the one who is only trying to correct (as is actually our obligation under the works of mercy…to correct those in err) that person, of judging.

What is “judging”. Is it “judging” to tell someone who is about to have an abortion that abortion is a sin?. Is it “judging” to tell someone who has a gun about to shoot someone that it’s a sin? Is it judging to tell some naked person at a nude beach that that’s a sin?

 

[Robert_Sock]

The quickest way for perversions and fetishes to develop is to keep breasts hidden from the sight of males.

 

[Phalanx]

You encourage modesty? Look back through your thread! Not only do you not encourage modesty, but you have actively attacked anyone who has tried to defend it! Be honest with yourself and us.

You just got done telling us all it’s okay to go to topless beaches!

I have multiple times made it clear that Im only ok with toplessness at the beaches.

You are mixing topics, making up secret agendas and making it your mission to somehow “prove” that im a cafeteria catholic. And if possible, brand me as a pagan.

The discussions you force seem to always pull the thread towards my indentification with religion, so i will from now on treat you as the troll you are and not continue to feed you any further.

Have a nice day!

 

[HelenRose]

Women who are wandering around with their boobs hanging out are making a statement.

The statement is: “I don’t give at @#$! what you think. I could not care less what you think because you are absolutely nothing to me.”

It is a common enough statement in other regards as well. I find it sad.

 

[GangGreen]

To me it’s easy:

If man sees breasts and has lustful thoughts, sin
If man sees breasts and does not have lustful thoughts, no sin

If a woman exposes her beasts to men fully knowing that it may cause them to have lustful thoughts, sin
If a woman exposes her beasts to men without knowing that it may cause them to have lustful thoughts, no sin

These obviously do not apply within a marriage.

The one who knowingly causes the sin is just as guilty as the one who sins.

If a woman exposes herself in a non-sexual way to among her female friends who she assumes are all heterosexual, then I wouldn’t see any fault.

 

[bilop]

I have multiple times made it clear that Im only ok with toplessness at the beaches.

So, what is the legitimate purpose to baring one’s breasts at the beach? If it’s not to attract men sexually, or be an exhibitionist, why do it?

What is better about beachgoing topless, rather than in a bathing suit?

God Bless

 

[Evania]

The quickest way for perversions and fetishes to develop is to keep breasts hidden from the sight of males.

If that was true, why doesn’t that analogy work if I put gloves on to cover my hands or socks to cover my feet? I’m not a rocket scientist, but I truly doubt that if all women were to decide to walk around topless, that it would cure men from sexual perversion and fetishes. If so, then any man who visits strip clubs or views pornography, should be saints for not having any perversions or fetishes.