Is traditional Catholic music dying?

[austenbosten]

Do you know how to play the organ?

Sadly, No

 

[ProVobis]

I actually made this suggestion to my organ teacher.

He was not amused. :tsktsk:

I’m willing to bet your organ teacher won’t let you play the pedals without your shoes on too, right? Personally, I don’t know why that practice is frowned on; to me playing with your shoes on is like playing the piano with gloves. Although I have managed to play a couple of Bach fugues on the organ (mostly for the neighbors), I feel limited because I have very wide feet. I can’t fit into those thin shoes organists usually put on just for playing.

 

[Cat]

I’m willing to bet your organ teacher won’t let you play the pedals without your shoes on too, right? Personally, I don’t know why that practice is frowned on; to me playing with your shoes on is like playing the piano with gloves. Although I have managed to play a couple of Bach fugues on the organ (mostly for the neighbors), I feel limited because I have very wide feet. I can’t fit into those thin shoes organists usually put on just for playing.

Pretty much, although I think if I was actually better at the pedals without shoes, he would probably let me get away with it!

No kidding, ProVobis, I am sooooo bad at the pedals. If there were a barfing smiley, I would post it here.

But I do enjoy practicing, and I feel that I’ve made some small progress. Last year at this time, I didn’t know what a diapason was.

Frankly, I am looking to see a growing interest in the organ among children and young people–it’s a giant machine, almost as complicated as the typical cell phone. Perfect for kids! But parents need to step up.

It’s a tough decision, I know–organ lessons vs. soccer team. Soccer might lead to a college scholarship–sweet! But playing the organ will lead to a life-long income–even Catholic churches pay their organists, sometimes anyway.

In fact, maybe that would make a difference–if the Catholic churches in the U.S. were to announce that all musicians WILL be recompensed for their service, then maybe parents would be willing to make the financial and time sacrifice to get their kids involved with organ lessons.

But at the moment, what is the motivation, other than wishing to serve the Lord? But there are plenty of ways to serve the Lord without paying $250.00 month to learn, and then being criticized constantly by fellow Catholics for playing not the way they want you to play.

Being an organist will earn you no money (at least in most Catholic churches). That’s a tough sell nowadays to parents who are already strapped financially due to high taxes, private schools, and all the other expenses of life in 2012 in the U.S.

 

[The_Curt_Jester]

No, this is wrong for so many reasons.

Why would you be willing to accept a badly-played organ instead of a well-played piano or guitar?

I think a lot of the problems in the Catholic Church have developed over the decades because Catholics are not willing to put in the work to do things they way they should be done, with excellence and beauty. I’m not talking “perfection”–I’m talking doing things right.

First, an organ keyboard is nothing like a piano keyboard, even though they look alike. There is a totally different attack to play the organ, and if a player tries to play the organ like the piano, it sounds simply awful. (I should know by now!) Choppy, puny, and disconnected. Not conducive to worship at all, in fact, distracting because of its wrongness.

Second, there are the registrations. At what settings should the manuals only be played? There should be different settings for different hymns; Joyful Joyful We Adore Thee should not be played with the same registration as Beautiful Savior or Faith of Our Fathers. Echh.

Third, the pedals are not just “extras.” They make the hymns sound full and “masculine.” They complete the chords. Of course there are times when it is appropriate to play only the manuals even on the hymns. But to leave out the pedals just for the sake of having an organ instead of a piano is simply incorrect.

In addition to the pedals, there are other devices on the organ that are played with the feet; e.g., the dynamics pedals. These shouldn’t be ignored. To play all hymns at the same dynamic level would be grating and incorrect.

Finally, there is a progression to playing the organ, and indeed, little children will play the organ on manuals only, as they are usually too small to reach the pedals. But most of the people in attendance at Mass are not little children, they are adults who deserve adult music. Forcing them to listen to children’s music week after week is just not good form.

Again, why in heaven or earth would anyone be willing to accept something that is incorrect?

That kind of thinking has no place in Christian life. If we are willing to go along with an organ played incorrectly, then how many other incorrect things will we be willing to accept? E.g., why not just read a small portion of the Bible instead of considering the passages in context, and why not just read them on our own instead of correlating our studies with the Catholic Church? After all, it’s the Bible, and reading the Bible is good, even if the technique for reading it is totally incorrect, right?! Wrong! This is what many Protestants do–they read the Bible on their own and impose their own interpretations on a Book that was never meant to be studied outside of the safety of the Magisterium.

We should play the organ correctly, the way it is meant to be played. We should fix the problem, not gloss over it with half-measures that meet our immediate desires, but don’t ultimately provide for the needs of the Church.

The fix for the problem is for more children and young people to begin taking organ lessons, and for local parishes to make their organs available at no cost for these young musicians to practice. That’s the answer to the problem of a lack of organ music in our parishes.

If this were done right now, starting today, I guarantee that within a few years, there would be plenty of good organists for all Masses. Children and teens learn a lot faster than people my age, and if they are allowed to play on a regular basis for Mass, even at the earliest stages when they will make mistakes, they will quickly become very skilled.

I have a little bit of a different take on it. In regard to congregational accompaniment, both a guitar and a piano are very poor instruments. Neither one can really accomplish a proper hymn accompaniment in the way that an organ can. Therefore, a well-played piano or guitar is still falling well short of satisfactory. Also note that because someone doesn’t use the pedals (at least not initially) does not mean that the organ is not played well. Hymns can still be played on the manuals (I know this isn’t the “full” organ), but it will still be much more suited to its task than other instruments. Also, there is a lot of organ repertoire out there that doesn’t have pedals, and it’s not all kiddy music - far from it. Bach composed some more complicated manuals-only (at least not three staves) music.

Someone who is just starting out, unless a prodigy, is going to take some time to become comfortable with the pedals to the point of playing hymns with them. Does this mean that the person can’t play for the Mass? No. Actually, being able to play for the Mass is very beneficial in the learning process. I had been taking organ lessons prior to having a job at a church, and while I could play certain pieces with the pedals, I never developed an ability to just play pedals by sight until I had the experience of working in the church. Yes, I started my first job playing mostly manuals. Within a year I was doing pedals for most pieces. But first-hand experience is what got me there. Did the music sound awful and poorly-done before I could use them? No (except on a couple of occasions, but I guarantee certain mistakes would sound just as bad on the piano!). The organ had more bass in the manuals than the piano had.

If we’re going to say that the organ has to be left alone until some virtuoso can come along and play it, then it’ll be sitting around gathering dust for ages because that would be a very unreal expectation. You want it played well? Then get someone playing it. There has to be a starting point somewhere and experience is the best teacher. You don’t get that except on the job. That’s not settling. Settling is playing an unsuitable instrument because you think you can’t do better. Until that mindset changes, then nothing else will.

Finally, there’s a form of music that’s beautiful and preferred by the Church, and it doesn’t require any accompaniment at all. No organ, no piano, no guitar. Yes, it’s chant. Where has it gone?

 

[Cat]

I have a little bit of a different take on it. In regard to congregational accompaniment, both a guitar and a piano are very poor instruments. Neither one can really accomplish a proper hymn accompaniment in the way that an organ can. Therefore, a well-played piano or guitar is still falling well short of satisfactory. Also note that because someone doesn’t use the pedals (at least not initially) does not mean that the organ is not played well. Hymns can still be played on the manuals (I know this isn’t the “full” organ), but it will still be much more suited to its task than other instruments. Also, there is a lot of organ repertoire out there that doesn’t have pedals, and it’s not all kiddy music - far from it. Bach composed some more complicated manuals-only (at least not three staves) music.

Someone who is just starting out, unless a prodigy, is going to take some time to become comfortable with the pedals to the point of playing hymns with them. Does this mean that the person can’t play for the Mass? No. Actually, being able to play for the Mass is very beneficial in the learning process. I had been taking organ lessons prior to having a job at a church, and while I could play certain pieces with the pedals, I never developed an ability to just play pedals by sight until I had the experience of working in the church. Yes, I started my first job playing mostly manuals. Within a year I was doing pedals for most pieces. But first-hand experience is what got me there. Did the music sound awful and poorly-done before I could use them? No (except on a couple of occasions, but I guarantee certain mistakes would sound just as bad on the piano!). The organ had more bass in the manuals than the piano had.

If we’re going to say that the organ has to be left alone until some virtuoso can come along and play it, then it’ll be sitting around gathering dust for ages because that would be a very unreal expectation. You want it played well? Then get someone playing it. There has to be a starting point somewhere and experience is the best teacher. You don’t get that except on the job. That’s not settling. Settling is playing an unsuitable instrument because you think you can’t do better. Until that mindset changes, then nothing else will.

Finally, there’s a form of music that’s beautiful and preferred by the Church, and it doesn’t require any accompaniment at all. No organ, no piano, no guitar. Yes, it’s chant. Where has it gone?

I disagree with you that the piano cannot provide a good accompaniment to congregational singing.

It depends on the player.

I consistently receive compliments whenever I accompany the congregation for Mass. I was trained by excellent church musicians and I know how to play piano for a congregation.

And even more important–whenever I play, the people sing. That’s the important thing in congregational music–the congregation, for the most part, should be singing.

Think about how many choral pieces were written with piano accompaniments. This indicates that the piano is an excellent choice for accompanying a large group of singers. I played for a conference this weekend in which the piano provided accompaniment for a group of 250 singers–a typical small congregation. The piano did it quite well.

My husband and I both grew up in large evangelical churches, and we grew up during a time when these churches were still singing a large number of traditional hymns that are still used in Catholic parishes today (e.g., Holy God We Praise Thy Name, For All The Saints, Joyful Joyful We Adore Thee, etc.). In my church, both the piano and organ were used together to accompany a large congregation of at least 500. But often only the piano was used. In my husband’s church (Assemblies of God), the piano was often the only instrument used to accompany a service that included several thousand people. It worked beautifully–people came to that church specifically for the music, including the congregational singing.

OTOH, you don’t see too many choral pieces written with a guitar accompaniment, so I would agree with you that accompanying a congregation with a guitar is more of a challenge. It can be done with a really good guitarist and the proper selections of hymns/songs. Guitar really doesn’t sound very good on the traditional hymns, but it is beautiful on the more contemporary hymns, and also on the more contemplative traditional hymns (e.g., Beautiful Savior).

I agree with you that an instrumentalist must be allowed to “practice” on the congregation. We have an organist who plays only the manuals–it’s definitely lacking. It’s like playing a stringed instrument without the vibrato–yes, it works, but it’s pretty thin. But I can definitely agree that a young person should be allowed to gain the experience. For me, this wouldn’t work. I would feel that I was playing like a baby and providing the congregation with 3rd rate baseball park organ music.

Finally, as for where chant has gone–that has been discussed often on CAF, and I still stick with my theory that most congregations lack the skill to sing even the simplest chant. The experiment was tried at my parish (7000 people) last autumn and winter, when the music director selected a very simple chant Mass (modern) with the new translation. Oh, it was dreadful. It got to the point where hardly anyone was singing, only the people who read music and who happened to know where the chant was in the hymnal (which is not OCP, BTW). Very few of the cantors (two or three only) could sing the chant correctly, so this confused the people even more. Even my husband eventually gave up–he felt that the chant was ugly and random. So did I, but I kept faithfully singing it, hoping that others around me would be able to learn it and join in.

Finally after the new year, the music director dumped the chant Mass setting and is now using a very pretty contemporary setting. I think it’s a little effeminate and the intervals still seem a little random at times (as though the setting was generated by a computer, if that makes sense). But at least there is a discernible melody, and people are singing again.

I think that a lot of parishes have the same music literacy problem that ours has. Those of you who have had success with chant probably have some external circumstance that makes chant more learnable for your congregation; e.g., you live in a university town which gives you a larger number of skilled musicians, or you have a music director who teaches chant well. (That’s not really fair to our music director–he’s very skilled, and he tried like a scout to teach people the chant month after month, but to no avail. He can’t make bricks without clay.)

 

[whipp711]

This thread has motivated me to go back and re-read “Why Catholics Can’t Sing.”

Regarding traditional hymns, our musical director introduced a toe tapping, almost country western song at the end of Mass last Sunday. A group of kids started bouncing up and down (like a country hoedown (sp). The mother joined in. At the end, clapping and applause broke out.

The OP’s original question… dead in my parish.

Like nails being dragged down a blackboard. Thank you OLOL.

On a positive note, I’ve attended Mass here and there. Still find traditional music alive and well.

 

[The_Curt_Jester]

Finally, as for where chant has gone–that has been discussed often on CAF, and I still stick with my theory that most congregations lack the skill to sing even the simplest chant. The experiment was tried at my parish (7000 people) last autumn and winter, when the music director selected a very simple chant Mass (modern) with the new translation. Oh, it was dreadful. It got to the point where hardly anyone was singing, only the people who read music and who happened to know where the chant was in the hymnal (which is not OCP, BTW). Very few of the cantors (two or three only) could sing the chant correctly, so this confused the people even more. Even my husband eventually gave up–he felt that the chant was ugly and random. So did I, but I kept faithfully singing it, hoping that others around me would be able to learn it and join in.

Singing simple chant doesn’t take a lot of skill. If you’re going into the more complicated chant, yes, it can be somewhat difficult, but if anyone who can sing On Eagles Wings tells me they can’t sing a simple chant, I have a hard time believing it. When I work with a person long enough, I learn what that person’s skill level is and what they can and cannot do. I have had some people tell me that they “can’t” sing something and I know full well that they can. It’s not a “can’t” but a “don’t wanna!” There are probably some people who legitimately cannot sing something, but these are most likely those who learn by repetition — which means they have to hear it a lot. Again, though, much of a person’s “ability” rests in whether they want to do it or not. If they do not like the music, many will not make any effort at all and just say they can’t do it if you ask.

Those churches that have a successful chant program have a priest who supports it, a director who can do it well, some singers who buy into the idea (if they won’t, it will be awful because they won’t put in any effort), and a congregation that goes to Mass to go to Mass, not to be entertained.

 

[Cat]

Singing simple chant doesn’t take a lot of skill. If you’re going into the more complicated chant, yes, it can be somewhat difficult, but if anyone who can sing On Eagles Wings tells me they can’t sing a simple chant, I have a hard time believing it. When I work with a person long enough, I learn what that person’s skill level is and what they can and cannot do. I have had some people tell me that they “can’t” sing something and I know full well that they can. It’s not a “can’t” but a “don’t wanna!” There are probably some people who legitimately cannot sing something, but these are most likely those who learn by repetition — which means they have to hear it a lot. Again, though, much of a person’s “ability” rests in whether they want to do it or not. If they do not like the music, many will not make any effort at all and just say they can’t do it if you ask.

Those churches that have a successful chant program have a priest who supports it, a director who can do it well, some singers who buy into the idea (if they won’t, it will be awful because they won’t put in any effort), and a congregation that goes to Mass to go to Mass, not to be entertained.

Most of the people in our parish don’t sing “On Eagle’s Wings,” so perhaps that’s why they can’t learn chant. They do OK with traditional hymns that are familiar, but they are flummuxed by anything “new” old.

Our priests support it, our music director does it very well, and we have a few singers who will buy into the idea (I’m one of them). I can’t speak for 7000 people; I doubt they go to Mass to be entertained because our Masses are definitely not entertaining, and if they really want entertainment, they can go to the megachurch down the block.

I think the main reason why people don’t sing is not because they have a rotten attitude, but because they lack the skills due to abysmal music education in our public schools, at least in our city.

Another reason why people do not sing is because the song/hymn selections are not suitable for corporate singing, but are better suited for solo voices.

Another reason why people don’t sing is because of a prevailing attitude that singing is for Professionals Only, not for regular folk. This attitude is rampant in faith communities, including Catholic parishes.

A final reason why people don’t sing in church is that notion that they don’t have to sing, because they can worship the Lord in the privacy of their hearts without joining in the congregational singing. There are quite a few people on CAF who say this about themselves, but it’s not just Catholics who feel this way. I’m not sure I will ever understand this attitude coming from someone who has a voice.

 

[fastenatingguy]

Funny you should mention this.

I am a skilled and experienced pianist (I’ve played in churches since I was in grade school) who is classically trained, and I just celebrated one year of taking lessons in pipe organ from the best teacher in our area.

I can now play three hymns. Three hymns. That’s 3 hymns. And one is a Christmas carol.

I can kind of play one of the Bach preludes, but usually I make a lot of mistakes, so I wouldn’t call it ready to go for Mass yet.

And I can play two Vierne pieces, but they are pretty flawed at this point.

I make a lot of mistakes in my hymns, too.

That’s it! Three hymns, a Bach, and two Viernes!

I’m not going to beat around the bush here and drop hints. Straight out, here’s what I’m trying to say here–playing the pipe organ is really hard. Those people who play the “Baptist” instrument called a piano are not likely to be able to switch to the pipe organ.

It’s those darn peddles! Those of us who are pianists have a very difficult time with the pedals. My hands keep trying to play what my feet are supposed to play, and my feet keep missing the pedals and playing mush instead.

Oh, one more thing–it’s costing me $250.00/month for my lessons, plus I’ve spent around $500.00 acquiring a very small collection of organ music.

In our city, there are only a few pipe organ students, and all but one are old (I’m 55). The one who is young is a man in his 20s studying at a Lutheran college and is looking forward to getting hired and receiving a nice salary at one of the large Lutheran churches in the Chicago area.

So if you’re wondering why there isn’t a lot of pipe organ in the Catholic Church these days, maybe my comments will help you understand.

If there are parents reading this who long for “traditional” Catholic Masses, I encourage you to think very seriously about getting your children into pipe organ lessons while they are young. If you don’t, well, then remember this post in ten years when the only Masses you can attend feature piano or guitar only, and most of the Latin Masses are done without any instrumental music.

---

We have a beautiful pipe organ that was completely reconditioned at our Basilica (Queen of All Saints in Chicago). It is only played at some masses, but it sure is wonderful

 

[Holly3278]

Piano music doesn’t bother me at Mass. However, guitar music definitely bothers me at Mass. I was at a charismatic Mass recently (didn’t realize it was going to be a charismatic Mass before I go there) and they played the guitar for the music. I did not like that at all.

 

[clem456]

Our liturgy director is a beast. He can play anything on a pipe organ or piano while turning his own pages, has a beautiful baritone voice, and knows liturgical music and history very well. Our choir does everything from medieval to modern, and also joining the Hispanic choir complete with guitars, horns, and drums. Just an unbelievable gifted guy, and he has no preconceived notions towards traditional or modern music. He provides a wide variety of music.

 

[Cat]

Piano music doesn’t bother me at Mass. However, guitar music definitely bothers me at Mass. I was at a charismatic Mass recently (didn’t realize it was going to be a charismatic Mass before I go there) and they played the guitar for the music. I did not like that at all.

I love a guitar at Mass, but then, I was raised in the evangelical Protestant churches, and to me, a guitar IS a reverent instrument. In the Baptist church, we really didn’t listen to secular rock music, and never entered a bar or lounge, so when I hear a guitar, I don’t think of those things–I think of worshipping the Lord in the beauty of holiness.

I also love a plucked guitar (not a strummed guitar) during Holy Communion (not during the Consecration!). I think it’s difficult to hold a hymnal/sing a hymn while kneeling after receiving the Lord, so I prefer a meditative instrumental, and IMO, guitar is perfect at this time. Very quiet and reflective, and reminiscent of the harp used by King David for his many psalms.

I believe that the guitar is an older instrument than the organ, although I won’t bet on that!

And as I mentioned before, there are certain hymns that are better for guitar, and there are hymns that sound better with piano, and hymns that sound better with organ. Ideally in a Mass, all three instruments would be used depending on the hymn/song. May the day come soon when we are so blessed with instrumentalists that all three instruments can be played during Mass!

 

[andrewstx]

Most organs have couplers which make it possible to play the pedals from the manuals. An example is the pedal to great coupler.

Don’t know why this did not come to my mind earlier.

Many of us came of age in the 70s, when guitars and folk Masses were the rage. In my first parish the Hammond (ugh) was just unpluggedand guitars ruled the day.

Later someone donated an Allen organ, which sounds much like a pipe organ.

I played organ with pedals, but no-one was nterested, and now since I had a stroke I can’t play anymore. And the organists are dying off.

Parishes should if at all possible pay their organists. You can’t survive on nothing but lessons.

 

[The_Curt_Jester]

Most organs have couplers which make it possible to play the pedals from the manuals. An example is the pedal to great coupler.

Most organs? I’ve yet to play an organ that has one of those. The closest I’ve seen is my home organ which has a “manual bass”. It takes the lowest played not in the hand and adds the pedal stops to it.

 

[ProVobis]

Very quiet and reflective, and reminiscent of the harp used by King David for his many psalms.

A kithara actually. (It’s mentioned in Psalm 42.)

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kithara

I believe that the guitar is an older instrument than the organ, although I won’t bet on that!

Hard to say. The organ is supposedly a descendant of the hydraulis

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Water_organ

but one can claim some of today’s stops (flutes, etc.) go back much further.

 

[andrewstx]

Most organs? I’ve yet to play an organ that has one of those. The closest I’ve seen is my home organ which has a “manual bass”. It takes the lowest played not in the hand and adds the pedal stops to it.

I should have been more exact then. Small electronics and tiny tracker organs do not as a rule have couplers, but I have never played one like that. All I have played are Allens, Rodgers, and moderate sized (3 manual) pipe ogans.

Moderate and larger pipe organs have couplers, and so do the better electronic instruments like Allen and Rodgers.

The “manual bass” is from the same concept as a coupler.

 

[The_Curt_Jester]

I should have been more exact then. Small electronics and tiny tracker organs do not as a rule have couplers, but I have never played one like that. All I have played are Allens, Rodgers, and moderate sized (3 manual) pipe ogans.

Moderate and larger pipe organs have couplers, and so do the better electronic instruments like Allen and Rodgers.

I’ve played a moderate three manual pipe organ. No pedal to manual couplers. I’ve also played on a Rodgers electronic (two manual) with no pedal to manual. The other pipe organs I’ve played are all smaller, with a couple being trackers. What you talk about would be more common with churches in large cities I imagine.

The “manual bass” is from the same concept as a coupler.

Yes, it is, but it’s not quite the same thing since the standard coupler would bring the pedal stops into any note played on the manual (as long as it’s within range) and not just the low note.

 

[Cat]

Most organs have couplers which make it possible to play the pedals from the manuals. An example is the pedal to great coupler.

Don’t know why this did not come to my mind earlier.

Many of us came of age in the 70s, when guitars and folk Masses were the rage. In my first parish the Hammond (ugh) was just unpluggedand guitars ruled the day.

Later someone donated an Allen organ, which sounds much like a pipe organ.

I played organ with pedals, but no-one was nterested, and now since I had a stroke I can’t play anymore. And the organists are dying off.

Parishes should if at all possible pay their organists. You can’t survive on nothing but lessons.

I’m really sorry about your stroke. It must be hard to not be able to play anymore.

My organ teacher would never allow me to skip the pedals. That’s just not correct. If for some reason I was unable to use the pedals (e.g., amputated feet), that would be different. But for someone who can still use their feet, although clumsily, it is right and proper to play the instrument the way it is meant to be played.

Perhaps I’m just being a fussy bussy laboratory scientist (I work in a lab), but I don’t believe in messing around with the Standard Operating Procedure! Most men wouldn’t dream of using a nail file for a screwdriver if the screwdriver is available, right? I feel the same way about the organ–if you are capable and have all your body parts, then play it the way it was meant to be played and don’t take shortcuts.

We’re certainly not doing the children and young people in the congregation any good to give them half an organ. They will think that’s what the organ is supposed to sound like, and wonder why on earth such a thin instrument is considered most appropriate for Mass. IMO, we should take the time, spend the money, and expend the effort to learn to play the organ (or any instrument) properly so that the true sound can be heard.

If someone grows up hearing an incomplete organ, and then hears the “real thing,” they will be horrified at all the noise! No, let’s get the little ones used to the real thing from the beginning of their lives!

And bless you for your comment about paying the organists!

 

[Zosimus41]

What I miss is real organ, with pipes. Even pianos sound Baptist to me.

All we get here in Texas is mariachi Mass with guitars, fine for Search but not for grown ppl.

I moved from Houston up to DFW I was shocked to find theres more spanish stations up here on the radio than back in Houston When I was setting my presets I thought I was in Mexico…lol

I do however like Spanish mass Hispanics seem to have a lot of revernce when it comes to mass It just seems more tasteful more of what a Catholic Mass should be like. From what Ive seen.

But give me Latin Mass over English/Spanish NOM any day of the week!

 

[ProVobis]

If someone grows up hearing an incomplete organ, and then hears the “real thing,” they will be horrified at all the noise! No, let’s get the little ones used to the real thing from the beginning of their lives!

That’s the spirit. Bring on those 32-64 foot pipes and let’s hear VOX DEI (the voice of God).