Is Traditional Catholicism an impediment to The Roman Catholic Church Today?

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With all due respect, do you believe God chose some questionable members in the hierarchy before? I thought the Holy Father approves those who are to be Cardinals or bishops in the Latin Rite (but God still calls them to Holy Orders). I could be wrong.
the Sacrament of Holy Orders is not a right for followers to have. no one can lay claim on receiving it. that is why we say those who become priests are “called”, because the decision of making someone a priest comes from Jesus, through the priests

but receiving Holy Orders doesn’t make one perfect nor lose their free well. they are still human and they can sin again. not just because you are called means you can’t sin anymore. don’t forget, Judas was called as well
I find the best way to get over the Traditional versus the rest divide is to begin to look at how Vatican II can be found in a “hermeneutic of continuity” as the Holy Father says.

Here is some comments on the “Mass of Vatican II” from Fr. Joseph Fessio.
ignatiusinsight.com/features2005/fessio_massv2_1_jan05.asp
ignatiusinsight.com/features2005/fessio_massv2_2_jan05.asp

Let’s not forget about the “Spirit of Vatican II.”
scdiocese.org/files/Pastoral_Letter_updated100809.pdf

I cannot find that the Church exists today in the way that Vatican II intended. Overemphasis and misinterpretation is what caused this divide between Traditionalists and the rest.

Best,
fish90
i don’t think there is a general divide between Traditionalists and the rest. its what some people here make you thinnk, but i don’t believe it. there’s a few with a personal agenda who uses the veil of Traditional Catholicism as an excuse to practice bigotry against fellow Catholics. what they’re doing has nothing to do with Traditional Catholicism, but they just make it sound that way to justify their actions

and most people here like myself who have spoken against these few people have nothing against Traditional Catholicsm. what we are against are those who claim to be Traditional Catholics, but act like a bunch of bigots
 
Bongos, tambourine, woodland flute, electric keyboard, soprano saxophone… :cool:

(Just nothing offensive that has no place in Mass like pipe organs or Gregorian chant or other related nonsense).
Oooh! You’re our man! Head on over!

P.S. Do you have any felt? We need to make more peace banners.👍
 
I forgot to ask. What’s Gregorian Chant?
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gregorian_chant
Gregorian chant is the central tradition of Western plainchant, a form of monophonic liturgical music within Western Christianity that accompanied the celebration of Mass and other ritual services. It is named after Pope Gregory I, Bishop of Rome from 590 to 604, who is traditionally credited for having ordered the simplification and cataloging of music assigned to specific celebrations in the church calendar. The resulting body of music is the first to be notated in a system ancestral to modern musical notation. In general, the chants were learned by the viva voce method, that is, by following the given example orally, which took many years of experience in the Schola Cantorum. Gregorian chant originated in monastic life, in which celebrating the ‘Divine Office’ eight times a day at the proper hours was upheld according to the Rule of St. Benedict. Singing psalms made up a large part of the life in a monastic community, while a smaller group and soloists sang the chants. In its long history, Gregorian chant has been subjected to many gradual changes and some reforms.
 
Michael:

I grew up in HMC before Vatican II and have never stopped being a traditional Catholic. I know that there are some on this forum who think that I am Genghis Khan’s right-hand man and define me as ultra-traditionalist. I don’t attend an EF parish. I attend a reverent OF cathedral parish where I have sung in the choir for 20 years and have served in the Ministry to Alienated/Inactive Catholics as well as taught Confirmation classes.

I am going to be charitable and to gently tell all those who didn’t live through the period, that there were a whole bunch of us who grew up before Vatican II; whose consciences were formed before Vatican II; and who really didn’t like what happened in 1967 on but submitted to the magesterium of HMC. We are not dead. Most of us have prayed for 45 years that HMC would regain her senses.

I have driven 25 miles one way since 1983 to attend my reverent OF cathedral parish because both of the geographic parishes I resided in …well, I am not going to cast aspersions on either but suffice it to say that …well, I am not going to go there. I “paid for it” in '83 because I had to get permission from my local pastor to be released to join the cathedral parish. “If you are dieing, I will not attend” is the response I got from my local pastor.

I get really depressed by some of the posts on this forum. I got taken to task because I wanted to have a Missa Cantata at my cathedral parish where the choir already sings chant and sacred motets in Latin. I was castigated because I did not consign myself to the 9:30 indult TLM (Low Mass) at a local parish even though I have been a fully functional member of my cathedral parish since 1983. What is wrong with me asking to have the same High Mass (Missa Cantata) that I grew up with as the norm in the 50s and 60s?

To make things even worse, I was asked to form a male schola which I had to decline since I don’t have the musical background to do so. Fr. has since retired and has been replaced by a wonderful priest who served as our assistant pastor back in the 80s.

My kids did not grow up with Glory and Praise or with the a’strummin’ and a’grinnin’ folks. They grew up hearing chant and sacred motets (even if we were forced to use our Anglican brethren’s English translations for some ten years. They can chant the Kyrie, Sanctus, and Agnus Dei in Latin that I learned as a child. My oldest took it upon himself to learn the Pater Noster.

What possible threat are we to today’s parishes? I would no more do to today’s parish what was done to us in 1967-1969 than submit to a root canal.

I give thanks to the Holy Father for his Motu Proprio and sincerely wished that my bishop did more than merely issue a one paragraph statement that he acknowledged the Motu Proprio much less having the chancellor of the diocese issue a scathing editorial in the diocesan newspaper about “How nobody wants a Latin Mass”. Talk about a “chilling factor”.
Great words from a great man.
RIP my friend.🙂
 
. And the biggie, the unmitigated disgrace of not having the Catholic Charismatic Renewal Movement around to convince it’s adherants of the absolute and total requirement that everyone be slain in the spirit, speak in tongues or break in spontaneous spirit filled praise at startegically placed and orchaestrated moments in the Mass, and thus occupy a superior place in the Church to the rest of us laggards…

:D:D:D…What I would say is that Charismatic Catholics (when controlled) are of use to the Church…although when one prayed over me and I didn’t fall over (like everyone else) I felt like the devil himself:eek:
 
No felt, but I can do one heck of an interpretive peace dance! :yyeess:
I’ve got a nun here who wants to lead the show…she’s the one doing the homily today. She has some ribbons you could use. “Yeah yeah that’s the one…the one in lipstick cross legged in a trance”. You might know her from the rainbow mass or the enneagram workshop :rolleyes:

Anyone seen the clowns?
 
I’ve got a nun here who wants to lead the show…she’s the one doing the homily today. She has some ribbons you could use. “Yeah yeah that’s the one…the one in lipstick cross legged in a trance”. You might know her from the rainbow mass or the enneagram workshop :rolleyes:

Anyone seen the clowns?
“She’s lost her notes on the homily (re: feeding of 5000)”

Oh there they are… the notes…with the formula on

real miracle = sharing
 
“She’s lost her notes on the homily (re: feeding of 5000)”

Oh there they are… the notes…with the formula on

real miracle = sharing
Aye, aye there’s the statue of buddha…the one last seen doing the rounds in Assissi in the eighties
 
If this thread is really soliciting opinions whether or not Traditional Catholicism is “an impediment,” and is not just another excuse to lambaste those who love the OF and wholeheartedly embrace ALL the changes since VII, I’m happy to offer my opinion.

(Frankly, I see MUCH more criticism from this Forum about the OF folk than the other way around – and this is said from the perspective of a relatively new visitor who did not come here with any agenda or preconceived notions.)

I don’t see the TC group as any impediment at all – the Church is certainly big enough and catholic (little “c”) enough to welcome everyone in communion with it.

I was an adult at the time of VII and had been fully formed in the traditional church. I loved the ritual, the Latin, the history, the discipline and everything else about it. I was also fortunate enough to have lived in a diocese that had a whole new litter of young priests during the period of changes post VII. The Bishop and they took the time to teach and explain the changes as they were made, they involved the laity early on to assist with liturgies and new music, they were patient (SO patient) with adults who resisted any change at all and these changes in particular, and, for the most part, the transition was successful.

I realize this scenario does not represent all dioceses in America, which I blame for much of the discontent I’ve witnessed on this Forum. There was apparently little training, little explanation and a whole lot of resentment - and rightful resentment. Something precious was removed and not replaced with anything you value and which causes distress.

But that transition was made almost 40 years ago and many millions of us across the world have come to love the Mass in the vernacular, the familiar and very theologically correct music at most masses, and the greater participation allowed by laity.

I’ve also loved the change in emphasis from the church of my childhood where every other action was a sin, where we were more afraid of going to hell than of living life, where rules were more important than anything else, and where “God’s love” were only words I knew from the catechism, not from any inner realization or experience. Even though I truly loved the church before VII, I didn’t come to truly know God’s love until after VII. I was given permission to exercise my own informed conscience, to live my religious life as an adult – as I did all other aspects of my life.

I have NO desire to return to what you call Traditional Catholicism – either in liturgy or in the minutiae of regulations, and blind conformity that I personally find so oppressive. That doesn’t mean I’m not a faithful Catholic. I do regret the conservative reigning in that has taken place the last 20 years, but all things in life ebb and flow, and I trust the action of the Spirit.

There’s certainly room in my world for those of you who treasure Traditional Catholicism. From what I’ve read on this Forum, however, I wonder if there’s much room in your world for faithful Catholics who have embraced the changes and would love to see the fruition of what was begun.
 
If this thread is really soliciting opinions whether or not Traditional Catholicism is “an impediment,” and is not just another excuse to lambaste those who love the OF and wholeheartedly embrace ALL the changes since VII, I’m happy to offer my opinion.

(Frankly, I see MUCH more criticism from this Forum about the OF folk than the other way around – and this is said from the perspective of a relatively new visitor who did not come here with any agenda or preconceived notions.)

I don’t see the TC group as any impediment at all – the Church is certainly big enough and catholic (little “c”) enough to welcome everyone in communion with it.

I was an adult at the time of VII and had been fully formed in the traditional church. I loved the ritual, the Latin, the history, the discipline and everything else about it. I was also fortunate enough to have lived in a diocese that had a whole new litter of young priests during the period of changes post VII. The Bishop and they took the time to teach and explain the changes as they were made, they involved the laity early on to assist with liturgies and new music, they were patient (SO patient) with adults who resisted any change at all and these changes in particular, and, for the most part, the transition was successful.

I realize this scenario does not represent all dioceses in America, which I blame for much of the discontent I’ve witnessed on this Forum. There was apparently little training, little explanation and a whole lot of resentment - and rightful resentment. Something precious was removed and not replaced with anything you value and which causes distress.

But that transition was made almost 40 years ago and many millions of us across the world have come to love the Mass in the vernacular, the familiar and very theologically correct music at most masses, and the greater participation allowed by laity.

I’ve also loved the change in emphasis from the church of my childhood where every other action was a sin, where we were more afraid of going to hell than of living life, where rules were more important than anything else, and where “God’s love” were only words I knew from the catechism, not from any inner realization or experience. Even though I truly loved the church before VII, I didn’t come to truly know God’s love until after VII. I was given permission to exercise my own informed conscience, to live my religious life as an adult – as I did all other aspects of my life.

I have NO desire to return to what you call Traditional Catholicism – either in liturgy or in the minutiae of regulations, and blind conformity that I personally find so oppressive. That doesn’t mean I’m not a faithful Catholic. I do regret the conservative reigning in that has taken place the last 20 years, but all things in life ebb and flow, and I trust the action of the Spirit.

There’s certainly room in my world for those of you who treasure Traditional Catholicism. From what I’ve read on this Forum, however, I wonder if there’s much room in your world for faithful Catholics who have embraced the changes and would love to see the fruition of what was begun.
I acknowledge The OF is not invalid…

but am very confused by your statement “I do regret the conservative reigning in that has taken place the last 20 years”. Reigning in what, pray tell?

I trust you believe and hold all the Church teaches in Faith and Morals. so what were you referring to when you spoke of “the minutiae of regulations, and blind conformity”? Just interested.

IMHO I will follow Rome (blindly if needs be) and continue to think on Hell and try to avoid sin at all cost.

Anyway in all things Charity. Peace - John
 
Traditional Catholicism will revive the Church. The first thing that should be understood is that Vatican II changed nothing for me. I was going to the same Church and worshipping the same God. They brought in a small altar, the priest faced the congregation and the Mass was now in English. Big deal. I was in Catholic school at the time.

Second, changes attributed to Vatican II were not authorized by Vatican II.

catholicnewsagency.com/column.php?n=1145

As a rank and file Catholic at the time, I had no idea why the other changes occurred. My goal was to worship God and not concern myself with what the leadership (or radicals) were doing. Obedience was the goal. I had no reason to believe at the time that anything was functionally wrong.

It was the secular onslaught beginning in 1968 that ‘helped’ too many Catholics make bad decisions. I was there. After that, Church attendance would begin a decades long decline till today. Things are turning around now.

God bless,
Ed
 
Like CAnnElizabeth, I see value both in TC and in V2 Catholicism (with some reservations about the latter; not all that parades as V2 really is, actually ;))

But there are an awful lot of people (including some on CAF) who apparently believe themselves to be “traditionally Catholic” who are no more “traditional” in the respect in which they name themselves, than some V2 Catholics are similarly in keeping with those reforms. Reactionary, Yes; ‘traditional,’ not necessarily. The traditional Roman Catholic Church (pre-V2) was more tolerant, rational, compassionate than much of the modern Church, especially of the last 10-15 years. It was less politically reactionary and less divisive – inwardly and outwardly.

I think there are some modern Catholics (of whatever chronological age) who genuinely seek a Church with a spiritually richer, liturgically richer identity than whatever they (correctly or incorrectly) identify as 'V2." I think there are others who seek to hide behind Church skirts to persecute those they politically disagree with, calling themselves “more Catholic” by those political disagreements.

Catholicism is not a giant Political Action Committee. Its purpose is to assist the indiivdual in transforming himself. A byproduct is that society can be transformed in that process of incorporating the individual witness to love, truth, justice. But as a belief system it is beyond politics. And there’s nothing attractive to the non-Catholic world (whether believers or unbelievers) in watching people who claim religious affiliation and religious justification in behaving like Inquisitors to its members and in condemning those who disagree in the slightest over radical statements for society at large. Not atractive in a Christian. Not attractive in a Muslim. Etc.
 
The Holy Father consistently wishes that V2 must be interpreted in a “hermeneutic of continuity.” There cannot be a pre or post Church.

That being said, the Church must still accept new traditions or it will stagnate. Then again, they have to be legitimate.

In my opinion, “Traditional Catholicism” will surely bring great and appropriate renewal to the Church.
 
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