Is transgender a sin?

[Zoe_Brain]

I think Satan has a grip on these people and puts these thoughts in their minds and then uses them to fly in the face of God.

Why?
Why do you think this?
Exorcism has been tried as a cure for transsexuality, for example. It didn;t work in the long term.

Given the mountain of evidence now that transsexuality is at least associated with a cross-gendered neurology, that it is always associated with a specific Intersex condition, one measurable by MRI scans and autopsies, why do you hold this position?

Do you hold the same position about other conditions which can only be detected by ultrasounds, X-rays, CAT, PET or MRI scans? That these are all unreal and the result of Satanic influence?

Do you believe that remedying other congenital anomalies such as cleft palates, hare lip, heart and hearing defects are “going against God’s will” or implying that God makes mistakes?

And if not - why not? Why is this situation different?

 

[aspawloski4th]

I think that people who have the surgery are telling God he made a mistake and God does not make mistakes.
It is mutalation of the body and our body’s are Temples of the Holy Spirit.
I think Satan has a grip on these people and puts these thoughts in their minds and then uses them to fly in the face of God.
Remember Satan is evil and cunning and will do anything to insult God.
What better way for Satan to insult God than to have the people He loves so much tell him he made a mistake.
Remember Satan is so evil he is capabale of doing this.

Antrim

Simplistic medieval (at best) thinking. God made the design, nature made the body. With that archaic type thinking. We have to leave hermaphrodites as is, we can separate conjoined twins, heck the baby born with a tumor shaped like a foot in his brain would have to leave it as is. Walk a few miles in my shoes and we will see if you are singing that worn out tune still.

 

[kelicious]

Simplistic medieval (at best) thinking. God made the design, nature made the body. With that archaic type thinking. We have to leave hermaphrodites as is, we can separate conjoined twins, heck the baby born with a tumor shaped like a foot in his brain would have to leave it as is. Walk a few miles in my shoes and we will see if you are singing that worn out tune still.

Exactly. It seems to be human nature to quickly dismiss “x” as sin – if it’s not something you’ve ever had to deal with.

My question is, what’s the greater sin – transitioning (which in turn made me a happy, secure person and a better parent) or committing suicide because I simply couldn’t bear living that way anymore, thus leaving my children without a supporting, loving parent?

Choice A hurts no one. My children are fine. They love me. They have no problems with having two Mom’s. I always was one anyway.

Choice B ends my life. It leaves my children without a parent. It leaves friends mourning loss. It leaves my employer without a faithful employee to keep things running smoothly.

There was no Choice C for me. It was, quite literally, transition or die. You (meaning the judgmental person who says transition is sin) may not understand that. That’s on you, not me. It’s easier for you to dismiss my medical problem as sin. It’s much harder to open your mind a bit, do a little research, and have a little understanding. Some of you need to do what you preach about all the time and take the hard road for a change so that others don’t have to needlessly take the road that leads to death.

 

[toknowservelove]

This is a difficult issue, to be sure. Pope John Paul the Great’s Theology of the Body (what I could understand of it) helped me to deepen my understanding of human sexuality. Not the sex that is doing but the sex that is being. For a clear discussion of this I would highly recommend Dr. Peter Kreeft’s talk “Sex in Heaven”. You can find it on iTunes under his name or at his websits www.peterkreeft.com.

 

[Antrim]

Zoe Brain These are two different situations. A person born with a Cleft Palate has nothing whatsoever to do with a person born Male or Female and then decide to have their gender changed by Medical Surgery.
Is the Church accepting the mountain of evidence about all of this stuff?. I dont think so.
What is happening people are trying to find reasons to justafy these wrong doings. They dont want to hurt their feelings or give them a Guilty Consience because it might make them feel bad.
WE have a moral obgligation as Catholics to teach the truth no matter what.
A good example of not making people feel guilty is saying Alcoholism is a disease. Alcoholism is not a disease it is a condition caused by the people themselves.
Hermaphrodites is also a differnt situation. It is not their fault that they were born that way.
When a person gets married and has children and then decides to have the Sex change operation. It is devasting to the spouse and the children in most cases. The other spouse is getting cheated out of their conjugal rights for the rest of their lives. That is mental cruelty. The children are confused and wonder what is going on. To do this is selfish and self centered without any consideration deep down about the other spouse and the children.
When we die there is no justifacation or ratifacation. We did or we did not do it. To say it was have the surgery ar commit suacide is not a reason and the church does not accept that.
When the church teaches it does not say that we can do this or that to justafy a wrong doing. In this case have a sex change operation to not commit suaside.
A good example is the United States Supreme Court when the Justices voted to overturn Roe V Wade. The christian and Catholic Judges said they voted against it on political grounds. That does not justafy their actions. Millions of Babies are still being murdered because they did not overturn Roe V Wade and when they go brfore God they will have to answer for it.
Simplistic Medieval. God’s laws never change no matter what Century it is.
As Catholics we must except the Dogma of the Church and not take matters into our own hands for our own selfish reasons.
These are the reasons I say Satan has a grip on these people and is using them to insult God and causing them to gamble with their Eternal salvation.

Antrim

 

[pathia]

A good example of not making people feel guilty is saying Alcoholism is a disease. Alcoholism is not a disease it is a condition caused by the people themselves.
Hermaphrodites is also a differnt situation. It is not their fault that they were born that way.

So some people are born that way and it’s ok, and some people are born that way and it’s not OK? Where’s the logic?

 

[Dale_M]

Exactly. It seems to be human nature to quickly dismiss “x” as sin – if it’s not something you’ve ever had to deal with.

Yes, dismissing foreign concepts as sin keeps every thing nice and tidy inside our minds, that way we don’t have to deal with messy reality which a good deal more complex.

It’s easier for you to dismiss my medical problem as sin. It’s much harder to open your mind a bit, do a little research, and have a little understanding. Some of you need to do what you preach about all the time and take the hard road for a change so that others don’t have to needlessly take the road that leads to death.

I wish it were possible to give this particular comment a high rating. It makes an excellent point. Sometimes the cross we have to bear involves being open to foreign experiences and understanding.

Nobody chooses to be transsexual. It is a condition which is forced upon them by birth. Ask yourself, who would choose to be mentally male, while having a female body? Transitioning so that the body and mind are in agreement is often the only viable option. We should thank God that it is possible, just as we thank God for curing other potentially fatal conditions.

 

[kelicious]

Zoe Brain These are two different situations. A person born with a Cleft Palate has nothing whatsoever to do with a person born Male or Female and then decide to have their gender changed by Medical Surgery.

Hermaphrodites is also a differnt situation. It is not their fault that they were born that way.

And this is the crux. In my opinion, you and the church are wrong. It is a medical condition as much as being physically intersexed with ambiguous genitalia is, and there is scientific evidence to back that statement up. As many Christians are fond of telling non-Christians, “Just because you believe something doesn’t exist, doesn’t make it so…”

When a person gets married and has children and then decides to have the Sex change operation. It is devasting to the spouse and the children in most cases. The other spouse is getting cheated out of their conjugal rights for the rest of their lives. That is mental cruelty. The children are confused and wonder what is going on. To do this is selfish and self centered without any consideration deep down about the other spouse and the children.

You think it’s hard on kids? My kids are fine with it. I have proof of that which I will share with you if you don’t believe me. What makes it hard on kids is, quite bluntly, narrow-minded people who make an issue out of it and ostracize transgender people and their families (read: their children!). In other words, quite frankly, people who think like you are the problem. That may sound harsh, but it’s true.

Further, try being a kid having to grow up this way. Try being ostracized by other kids because you were different and not having any understanding of why you were different. Try being a kid dealing with parents who don’t understand and who punish you for being and acting in a way you can’t help. Yeah, being transgender hurts kids, but not in the way you think.

 

[goofyjim]

Zoe Brain These are two different situations. A person born with a Cleft Palate has nothing whatsoever to do with a person born Male or Female and then decide to have their gender changed by Medical Surgery.
Is the Church accepting the mountain of evidence about all of this stuff?. I dont think so.
What is happening people are trying to find reasons to justafy these wrong doings. They dont want to hurt their feelings or give them a Guilty Consience because it might make them feel bad.
WE have a moral obgligation as Catholics to teach the truth no matter what.
A good example of not making people feel guilty is saying Alcoholism is a disease. Alcoholism is not a disease it is a condition caused by the people themselves.
Hermaphrodites is also a differnt situation. It is not their fault that they were born that way.
When a person gets married and has children and then decides to have the Sex change operation. It is devasting to the spouse and the children in most cases. The other spouse is getting cheated out of their conjugal rights for the rest of their lives. That is mental cruelty. The children are confused and wonder what is going on. To do this is selfish and self centered without any consideration deep down about the other spouse and the children.
When we die there is no justifacation or ratifacation. We did or we did not do it. To say it was have the surgery ar commit suacide is not a reason and the church does not accept that.
When the church teaches it does not say that we can do this or that to justafy a wrong doing. In this case have a sex change operation to not commit suaside.
A good example is the United States Supreme Court when the Justices voted to overturn Roe V Wade. The christian and Catholic Judges said they voted against it on political grounds. That does not justafy their actions. Millions of Babies are still being murdered because they did not overturn Roe V Wade and when they go brfore God they will have to answer for it.
Simplistic Medieval. God’s laws never change no matter what Century it is.
As Catholics we must except the Dogma of the Church and not take matters into our own hands for our own selfish reasons.
These are the reasons I say Satan has a grip on these people and is using them to insult God and causing them to gamble with their Eternal salvation.

Antrim

You don’t knwo their situation until you have walked in their shoes.

 

[Antrim]

I should have said Hermaphrodites are a different situation. I put the word also in by mistake.
So the Church is wrong, Christ is wrong, The Pope is wrong and I am wrong because we do not condone your wrongdoing. We would be liers if we condoned it.
This is a normal typical responce from people when the Church Etc does not agree with what they are doing wrong. This backs up what I said earlier about people trying to find excuses to condone their wrongdoings.
It seems to me there was a lack of religius upbringing somewhere along the way and that is how Satan got in.
This is Satan at work. Not only is he ruining indivavidual lives he is ruining families.
Your children are young right now and maybe dont fully understand what is going on. I hate to tell you this but chances are the day will come when they may tell you that you ruined their lives and their mothers. It may not happen but chances are it will.
It is not normal for children to be raised by two men or two women in that kind of situation. It is not what God intended and there is the risk of giving them scandal and bad example.
What I am saying about what could happen down the road. Johnie down the street is going to little league with Mom and Dad not two Moms.
Think about it.
Antrim

 

[kelicious]

IYour children are young right now and maybe dont fully understand what is going on. I hate to tell you this but chances are the day will come when they may tell you that you ruined their lives and their mothers. It may not happen but chances are it will.
It is not normal for children to be raised by two men or two women in that kind of situation. It is not what God intended and there is the risk of giving them scandal and bad example.
What I am saying about what could happen down the road. Johnie down the street is going to little league with Mom and Dad not two Moms.
Think about it.
Antrim

LOL, you think I never gave any of that any thought? My children are well aware of what is going on. How do you even know how old they are, as I never told you?

And I would really like to know how I ruined their lives, aside from the fact that they may have to deal with bigoted folk who have nothing better to do but stick their noses and their opinions in where they are neither wanted nor needed. Fortunately the world outside of the church is fairly progressive and they may not have to endure any of that, particularly if they stay away from churches filled with people who think as you do.

As for ruining their other Mother’s life; not at all, as she is also gay, as I am and we are pretty good friends who co-parent very well together. We did not divorce due to my transition. In fact, we divorced in part because of my NOT transitioning sooner, but mostly for other reasons having nothing to do with transition.

As a Christian lady once said, “Normal is only a setting on your dryer.” How true that is, and the sooner the church realizes that, the sooner the church will actually become relevant again. The present regard the church has of transgender people is about as relevant and truthful as teaching that the world is flat. Denial rarely, if ever, solves anything.

 

[Dale_M]

I should have said Hermaphrodites are a different situation. I put the word also in by mistake.

Antrim, I realize you are not going change your views, but you might want to avoid using the word “hermaphrodite” when referring to intersex persons. Many in the intersex community find that word to be offensive.
isna.org/faq/hermaphrodite

 

[Benedict108]

Exactly. It seems to be human nature to quickly dismiss “x” as sin – if it’s not something you’ve ever had to deal with.

My question is, what’s the greater sin – transitioning (which in turn made me a happy, secure person and a better parent) or committing suicide because I simply couldn’t bear living that way anymore, thus leaving my children without a supporting, loving parent?

Choice A hurts no one. My children are fine. They love me. They have no problems with having two Mom’s. I always was one anyway.

Choice B ends my life. It leaves my children without a parent. It leaves friends mourning loss. It leaves my employer without a faithful employee to keep things running smoothly.

There was no Choice C for me. It was, quite literally, transition or die. You (meaning the judgmental person who says transition is sin) may not understand that. That’s on you, not me. It’s easier for you to dismiss my medical problem as sin. It’s much harder to open your mind a bit, do a little research, and have a little understanding. Some of you need to do what you preach about all the time and take the hard road for a change so that others don’t have to needlessly take the road that leads to death.

What exactly makes one decide that the roads to choose are only A, B, and C; further, what would give you the hubris to say :

Some of you need to do what you preach about all the time and take the hard road for a change so that others don’t have to needlessly take the road that leads to death

?
There are many of here who have bore trials and decisions, some worse than this, and have remained within church teaching. Don’t be so presumptuous as to classify all of us as healthy people who just blame others. We all all bear crosses!

In addition, no one has classified a “medical problem” as a sin, but sometimes the solution can be sinful and to let you know the road to avoid sin is most often the hardest road.

Now let me say this, I empathize with your burden, but please do remember there are many of us here who carry burdens and though they may be somewhat different it does not make it any less of a burden, but you talked about choosing death some of us don’t even have that choice it just comes to us. Please remember that.

Pax tecum.

 

[kelicious]

What exactly makes one decide that the roads to choose are only A, B, and C; further, what would give you the hubris to say :
?
There are many of here who have bore trials and decisions, some worse than this, and have remained within church teaching. Don’t be so presumptuous as to classify all of us as healthy people who just blame others. We all all bear crosses!

In addition, no one has classified a “medical problem” as a sin, but sometimes the solution can be sinful and to let you know the road to avoid sin is most often the hardest road.

Now let me say this, I empathize with your burden, but please do remember there are many of us here who carry burdens and though they may be somewhat different it does not make it any less of a burden, but you talked about choosing death some of us don’t even have that choice it just comes to us. Please remember that.

Pax tecum.

I never said no one else had any burdens. But again, until you’ve walked in someone’s shoes… And yes you’re right, some of us don’t have that choice, it just comes to us. Like the many transgender people who are killed each year because others just can’t find it within themselves to leave what someone else does a private matter between them and God.

We could argue this stuff all night long and on the road we are presently on, come to the conclusion that nothing matters because someone else always has it worse than you do, which may be true, but still doesn’t solve any problems. As for remaining in church teaching, I’m not much interested in that, to be honest. My interest here lies in the fact that I was raised in Catholicism and that I have a father who still is, and is so virulently opposed to my transitioning as to become violent – this based on what he believes to be truth based on what the church teaches.

 

[cmom]

It used to be that doctors would take one look at a newborn baby and classify it as male or female and if the parts didn’t look right, operate. However body parts do not always match up with brain orientation, and that cannot be known until the child is several years old. There seems to be a much larger variety of chromosomal abnormalities that were unheard of even 20 years ago.
In addition, there are so many estrogen-like hormones in the environment today that affect development in the womb, that this problem could be increasing over the next several generations.
I think that these situations should be considered by the Church on a case-by-case basis as to the acceptability of reassignment surgery. I think the Church after consultation with competent authorities might consider surgery an acceptable alternative to suicide.
I find it hard to condemn people over their biology, something over which they certainly had no say. The Church condemns sin, but the person involved still has their innate dignity as a child of God.

 

[Zoe_Brain]

Zoe Brain These are two different situations. A person born with a Cleft Palate has nothing whatsoever to do with a person born Male or Female and then decide to have their gender changed by Medical Surgery.
Is the Church accepting the mountain of evidence about all of this stuff?. I dont think so.

No more than it accepted the existence of the Moons of Jupiter at one stage, no. Yet they exist, Church acceptance or no, and are not Satan leading us astray.

Gender cannot be changed due to surgery. All that can be done is to modify the body so it is in accordance with the innate Gender.

Church policy was determined in 2000 - but was and is kept secret, so even you don’t know what it is. Snippets of information have been made public through the Vatican news service, and I’ll quote one of them:

An analysis of the moral licitness of “sex-change” operations. It concludes that the procedure could be morally acceptable in certain extreme cases if a medical probability exists that it will “cure” the patient’s internal turmoil.

But it seems you know better than the Vatican here. (More on the subject, including references, on this thread)

Most of the evidence has come in since the time this policy was formulated. Here’s just some of it, all things which you can verify yourself, as I will confine myself to resources available online.

A Sex Difference in the Human Brain and its Relation to Transsexuality by Zhou et al.

The BSTc volume in heterosexual men was 44% larger than in heterosexual women. The volume of the BSTc of heterosexual and homosexual men was found not to differ in any statistically significant way. The BSTc was 62% larger in homosexual men than in heterosexual women. A small volume of the BSTc was found in the male-to-female transsexuals. Its size was only 52% of that found in the reference males and 46% of the BSTc of homosexual males.

Male-to-Female Transsexuals Have Female Neuron Numbers in a Limbic Nucleus by Kruijver et al:

The number of SOM neurons in the BSTc of heterosexual men (32.9 ± 3.0 x 103) was 71% higher than that in heterosexual women (19.2 ± 2.5 x 103), whereas the number of neurons in heterosexual and homosexual men (34.6 ± 3.4 x 103) was similar. The BSTc number of neurons was 81% higher in homosexual men than in heterosexual women. The number of neurons in the BSTc of male-to-female transsexuals was similar to that of females (19.6 ± 3.3 x 103). In addition, the neuron number of the FMT (the single female to male transsexual) was clearly in the male range. The number of neurons in transsexuals was 40% lower than that found in the heterosexual reference males and 44% lower than that found in the homosexual males.
…
There seemed to be no clear difference in the BSTc number of neurons between early onset and late-onset transsexuals, indicating that their smaller number of neurons is related to the gender identity per se rather than to the age at which it became apparent.

fMRT zur Diagnose bei Transsexualität geprüft (ArzteZeitung 2006 - Translation)

Twelve heterosexual men and twelve heterosexual women were examined, along with twelve anatomical males who identify as women. As Dr. Elke Gizewski stressed at the Röntgenkongreß in Berlin, it was already well-known from preliminary investigations of other groups that differences between men and women appear in fMRT when they are presented with erotic stimuli.

In men, the limbic system and upper regions of the hypothalamus, the amygdalae and the insular cortex were activated substantially more strongly. “We confirmed this finding in the comparison between the heterosexual men and women of our Cohort”, said Gizewski.

This specifically male activation of the limbic system was not found in the transsexual sample. Under fMRT, the pictures corresponded rather accurately to those of the female sample.

Radiologists can now confirm what transsexuals report - that they feel “trapped in the wrong body” - on the basis of the activation of the brain when presented with erotic stimuli. There is obviously a biological correlation with the subjective feelings.

Prenatal exposure to diethylstilbestrol(DES) in males and gender-related disorders:results from a 5-year study by Scott Kerlin.

More than 150 network members (out of 500) with “confirmed” or “strongly suspected” prenatal DES exposure identified as either “transsexual, pre- or post-operative,” (90 members), “transgender” (48 members), “gender dysphoric” (17 members), or “intersex” (3 members).

And many others that space does not permit me to include, but which I’ll add in a further post.

 

[mystagogia]

When did “transgender” become a word?

Ok, ok, all of our forefathers in every case, in every culture were just clueless. Only US has the steady eye on human nature, psychology, experience, etc.

If you think you are a man but born in a woman’s body, or if you think you are a woman but born in a man’s body, are you in a state of sin?

No, I suppose not.

If you organize a movement to redefine gender in amorphous ways to destroy the concept of gender, are you in a state of sin?

Yes, I suppose you are.

Do you pay a doctor more money than most families on this planet see in a year or two, to be charitable, so he can cut off your member or slice off fleshy parts of you to add a member?

I’d say you are rather ridiculously indulgent. And I’m not keen on the doctor, either.

Why should anyone care what problems you have dealing with your biological gender? Is it because you have a powerful political lobby? People in this life are born with Down’s Syndrome, or autism, or a whole host of problems.

These are unsexy afflictions, however. They do not afford us the opportunity to redefine human relations. At this late date in the broad history of human relations, “transgenders” arrive on the scene to shake our souls!!!

Sure.

 

[Zoe_Brain]

Gender change in 46,XY persons with 5alpha-reductase-2 deficiency and 17beta-hydroxysteroid dehydrogenase-3 deficiency. by Cohen-Ketternis:

Individuals with 5alpha-reductase-2 deficiency (5alpha-RD-2) and 17beta-hydroxysteroid dehydrogenase-3 deficiency (17beta-HSD-3) are often raised as girls. Over the past number of years, this policy has been challenged because many individuals with these conditions develop a male gender identity and make a gender role change after puberty. The findings also raised doubts regarding the hypothesis that children are psychosexually neutral at birth and emphasized the potential role of prenatal brain exposure to androgens in gender development…
Gender role changes were reported in 56-63% of cases with 5alpha-RD-2 and 39-64% of cases with 17beta-HSD-3 who were raised as girls. The changes were usually made in adolescence and early adulthood. In these two syndromes, the degree of external genital masculinization at birth does not seem to be related to gender role changes in a systematic way.

A sex difference in the hypothalamic uncinate nucleus: relationship to gender identity by
A. Garcia-Falgueras A and D.F. Swaab.

We showed for the first time that INAH3 volume and number of neurons of male-to-female transsexual people is similar to that of control females. The female-to-male transsexual subject had an INAH3 volume and number of neurons within the male control range, even though the treatment with testosterone had been stopped three years before death.

Certain gene sequences have been implicated - different ones for Male to Female and Female to Male syndromes:

A polymorphism of the CYP17 gene related to sex steroid metabolism is associated with female-to-male but not male-to-female transsexualism by Bentz et al.

Androgen Receptor (AR) Repeat Length Polymorphism Associated with Male-
to-female Transsexualism. by Hare et al.

Now whether you or the Church accepts reality or not, it remains reality. Moreover, 1 Corinthians 13 states that no matter how outwardly pious you are, without Charity you’ve missed the whole point. And your view in light of the extensive evidence distinctly lacks Charity. You make statements contrary to the facts, and use them to justify denigration of others as being misled by Satan.

I ask you, please examine your own views in the light of this evidence. By all means seek guidance.

 

[goofyjim]

I remember learning in school that even males start off as essentially female in the womb before forming male organs. This seems to suggest that it is phsyciologically possible for a transgender situation to occur. The brain and the chemicals that operate it are basically physcial and therefore susceptible to the same biological abnormalities that the rest of the body. It si not so farfetched to believe that some might be born with actual phsycial characteristics of the opposite gender. Or that some might be born finding their own gender attractive. None of this makes the behavior justifiable but it does support the idea that one could be born with a sexuality and yet not be a mistake because God does not make mistakes.

 

[Dale_M]

When did “transgender” become a word?

The word “transgender” was popularized in the 1970s, although its meaning has changed since then.
transgenderzone.com/library/ae/fulltext/20.htm

At this late date in the broad history of human relations, “transgenders” arrive on the scene to shake our souls!!!

Oh, no no no. Transgender expression seems to be as old as mankind. Certainly accounts of it exist in ancient Rome, Babylon, Persia and India.