Is using animals for their fur moral or immoral?

[gurneyhalleck1]

To each his own, I don’t eat any beef LOL. Haven’t since 1989. When I smell it now, oh man, I want to puke. My wife got off beef about 10 years ago, too. She said it gives her nausea to get a wiff of it!

that depends on where you buy your beef. I know my beef personally. My boss raises black angus. We purchase our beef from him. At best there might be two cows in my hamburger, but it is all pasture, free range beef.

 

[severus68]

Thank you for your response. It may be that Satan appeared on Earth far before man came into existence. And if evolution is really true rather than just appearing to be factual, I would be somewhat inclined to say that Satan, rather than God, created life (those Gnostics were probably right about something), or at least that the Devil took control of the world very early on.

That is an interesting thought. The only thing is is that I was taught that Lucifer (Satan) was the most beautiful of God’s angels and rebelled against God for creating Man. So I am not sure .

 

[Lost_Wanderer]

It’s not anthropomorphism. It’s called being humane. God did give us dominion over animals, as you love to remind us. Nobody is debating that. But does God give animals feelings and us a reponsibility to care for them in a humane way? Obviously. My cats in my house have empathy whether you want to believe that or not. When you’re sick, they sense it and come to you. When you’ve had a lousy day at work, it’s almost eerie how they rush over and sit on your lap, purr, and lick your hand.

I’ve called my cat stupid, foolish, and fat all for the lulz yet it still comes home and whines for us to feed it. It hardly squirms when I grab it and start ruffling its fuzz or giving it little noogies. All it does is make cute little mews with a blank face like this -w- or owo. It doesn’t hiss or screech when I squeeze its increasingly bulging belly in my hand. And despite how angry or rough my housekeeper is with it, it always lies about and tries to cuddle up to her leg.

That tells me a lot about a cat’s level of humanity… or intelligence.

I found filipinos to waste a lot of food. I also notice they spend huge amounts of pesos on food. Perhaps one could go to college if a few less fiestas were held!

Apparently, it sounds like you need to be more aware of just how wide the discrepancy there is amongst Filipino social classes. Take this video for instance. Mind you, I’ve had the same people come over to our house (which is hardly a mansion) just to ask for our leftovers.

**We don’t CLAIM to have spent billions on you guys, we DID and still do…your government and its corruption needs to be dealt with. When the people get fed up and are ready to do something about it, it’ll change. Filipinos are too easy going. It’s an observation I’ve always had. It’s a blessing and a curse. I hope you realize how much money the United States has pumped into the Philippines for not only improving the country, but helping with poverty and disaster relief. I think our $$$ contributions have always gone rather unappreciated, sadly. **

You think I’m blind to how stupid my government is? I’m proud to be a Filipino. I’m proud of my country’s heritage both cultural and natural. However, I have hardly, if ever been, proud of my government and its history for botching up.

Then again, compared to you guys who’ve had more than a hundred years of independence, it’s not so much of a surprise. Why do you think I’m one of those in such a rush in leaving this mess? I’m sick of how underfunded everything is, not just animal shelters. I’m sick of seeing dirty streets with dirty animals and even dirtier beggars all the while being unable to do a thing about it.

I don’t really doubt the money being sent here. It’s pretty obvious that with our government’s history of corruption, we’re pretty much an Asian version of Mexico.

Also, it seems your observation has missed something. The masses are easily fooled when it comes politics. (Just look at our elections. What a joke! XD)

Well-paid? Most agricultural areas like mine have the highest unemployment in the country. Wages for agricultural workers are LOOOOOOW. Why do you think illegal Mexican immigrants are used to work on farms, pick fruit and nuts, and to do the hard labor? Sad fact of life here. Agriculture is a tough business with few rewards for the worker…

Yet people over here are dying and pushing their kids to college courses they don’t want just so they could get those “low wages”. Are you aware of just how many OFWs are domestic workers and laborers in the Middle East? You’ll find a sizable amount I’m sure. It’s the same with America. I’d bet a public school teacher earns way more there than they do here or I wouldn’t be setting my sights anywhere else. Ever thought of seeing how our currency is still puny compared to yours? A low wage there is enough to fuel a middle-class life here.

 

[Lost_Wanderer]

If each city started paying the police to go around and give citations to people who have emissions, things would change. The police is very lax in the Phils. And it’s too small. They need to get an aggressive police and city government presence on the roads, and nail these polluters. Also, do you realize that Honda, Toyota, Hyundai, and the other car companies REMOVE most smog devices for the Philippines before they even arrive? Our emissions are extremely strict in California and we’ve benefitted a lot from it! The Philippines doesn’t demand the car companies to comply because they don’t have aggressive standards. It has to start up top and the bureaucracy needs to follow through and give REAL penalties if you want to see a change.

Please, China’s already steaming over how incompetent and poorly funded our police are. No need to tell us twice.

Hence, we’re back to the topic of why animal rights are hardly a priority here when we have enough on our plate just trying to uphold human rights.

It’s not really the fault of the Filipinos. Our economic and political climate is just not suitable as of now to cater to the wants of you animal rights folks.

Unless it’s an endangered species of national and environmental significance (and I hardly doubt askal fall under that given that they actually add to the pollution at times), you hardly have a cause to criticize the way we treat our animals when our needs take precedence over theirs.

And I’ll repeat what I said, only the people can make things change. And while they’re making life better for humans, do it for animals also. One thing at a time is unrealistic. It’s called multi-tasking. I do it everyday. And if I can do it, so can filipinos. Filipinos are some of the most INTELLIGENT and clever people I’ve ever met, no doubt!

Multi-tasking has loads of critics. I should know. I multi-task too and 50% of the time, the results haven’t always been so clean.

 

[Young_Thinker]

That is an interesting thought. The only thing is is that I was taught that Lucifer (Satan) was the most beautiful of God’s angels and rebelled against God for creating Man. So I am not sure .

Thank you. I wonder if he might have instead rebelled out of jealousy after God began to make the university and all of its wonderful things (e.g. life).

 

[severus68]

Thank you. I wonder if he might have instead rebelled out of jealousy after God began to make the university and all of its wonderful things (e.g. life).

Heaven is the best place to be. He thought God was wrong in creating humans, that humans would go against God and has been trying to prove himself right ever since. In doing so, Lucifer himself turned against God. Satan does not have to do anything really, we have so much in ourselves we have to fight against.

 

[Young_Thinker]

Heaven is the best place to be. He thought God was wrong in creating humans, that humans would go against God and has been trying to prove himself right ever since. In doing so, Lucifer himself turned against God. Satan does not have to do anything really, we have so much in ourselves we have to fight against.

I see what you saying. However, I wonder if that perspective is really doctrinal, or is if it is just theological speculation that has long been accepted. Since if death existed before God created man, what would explain it? Somehow, I do not think that God make death a part of this wotld, even for the most primitive organisms.

 

[gurneyhalleck1]

This is the problem with your thinking. You think that money and political climates dictate compassion. That’s why you just don’t get it. Can you only be kind to people or animals when you’re making plenty of money or the economy is good or politics aren’t so hot? That makes no sense? Does our compassion have a financial requirement?
It’s not money, it’s a mentality. I happen to love the “askal” and I hope that someday you guys will wise up and care for God’s creatures as well and stop seeing them as inanimate objects of abuse and mockery.

It’s not really the fault of the Filipinos. Our economic and political climate is just not suitable as of now to cater to the wants of you animal rights folks.

Unless it’s an endangered species of national and environmental significance (and I hardly doubt askal fall under that given that they actually add to the pollution at times), you hardly have a cause to criticize the way we treat our animals when our needs take precedence over theirs.

Multi-tasking has loads of critics. I should know. I multi-task too and 50% of the time, the results haven’t always been so clean.

 

[Lost_Wanderer]

Does our compassion have a financial requirement?

Uh, yeah.
Pets aren’t cheap.

 

[gurneyhalleck1]

You keep contradicting yourself. You said that there are animals all over the place and yet you now think you have to pay to buy one? When I was in the Philippines there are cats and dogs on every street, bless their hearts, skinny and hungry because no one will feed them.

There are animals all over. It doesn’t take a lot to find one. They’re free.

All three of my cats were feral. I rescued them, brought them home, gave 'em a bath with flea soap, cleaned 'em all up, and they’ve been our family buddies ever since. FREE. My dog was abused by a neighbor of mine. I got her as a pup at age 8 weeks or so. Her owner, a thug, wouldn’t give her water, wouldn’t let her in the house, kept her out in the rain, didn’t feed her. I told him he should be ashamed of himself. he said “you want that stupid dog you can have her.” So while he was at work, I did just that! I took her, never looked back and now Cassie is my best buddy. We walk every night, she’s awesome to my kids, we have a blast. My parents and family love her like one of the family herself. She sleeps in our bedroom at night, rarely barks, has an awesome temperment. She was free

Like I said, it’s a mindset and being humane. Maybe someday filipinos will change that mindset. Money isn’t the issue. It’s about mindset…My wife’s uncle in Baguio is a big animal lover. He has birds and a couple of dogs and actually treats them really well. That’s a rarity in Baguio…

Uh, yeah.
Pets aren’t cheap.

 

[Lost_Wanderer]

You keep contradicting yourself. You said that there are animals all over the place and yet you now think you have to pay to buy one? When I was in the Philippines there are cats and dogs on every street, bless their hearts, skinny and hungry because no one will feed them.

The price of a pet is only a small fraction of their overall costs. You missed the part where I spoke about how costly it is to raise a stray.

Again, you worry about skinny animals on the streets when I’ve seen people who suffer the same fate? Sorry but the CCC tells me to prioritize them over animals, even if it is just only my sympathy.

Like I said, it’s a mindset and being humane. Maybe someday filipinos will change that mindset. Money isn’t the issue. It’s about mindset…My wife’s uncle in Baguio is a big animal lover. He has birds and a couple of dogs and actually treats them really well. That’s a rarity in Baguio…

Ask him how much time and money does he spend on bird food and see if the lady at the palengke can afford just as much. My dad once tried to care for fish on the same level but the demands were too much for our income and his schedule.

 

[RosalieM]

I’m sorry, I couldn’t bear to read all the posts before responding and I can only speak for myself. Many wore “skins” in the old testament and they sacrificed animals too.
Then Jesus appeared. Animal sacrifice stopped except in backward places. We have a lot of things to make clothing with, we can even make artificial fur. Gortex and other artificial clothing repels the bitterest cold.
I say let God’s beautiful, innocent creatures live their lives and keep their skins. What else do they have but their bodies? They have no possessions. We may find out so much more about them when we finally get to heaven.
As St. Paul said, we can’t see now, but then we’ll know. I’ll bet there’s way more to this subject than we can imagine now.
I can’t see destroying a life to wear fur. It brings tears to my eyes. It’s not just limited to wild animals, and endangered species. In some countries they use the fur of cats too. I love cats.
Getting back to the subject; animals who are killed for their fur die a slow and painful death, the reason being so that the fur isn’t harmed. When I went into a Canadian shop with my sister some years ago, they had a variety of real fur hats. I said “they made hats out of my friends”. And as silly as that may sound to some; I really meant it. But that’s just me. I look at my cat sometimes and think of him as a magnificent creation of God, a work of art that has the breath of life.
Watch a tiger or leopard in a zoo or on t.v. or on a photo safari, then think of a woman wearing its skin. I was repelled once when I shared an elevator with a woman wearing a real silver fox fur. The weather wasn’t even that cold.
I definitely say using animals for their fur is immoral.
I won’t be returning to this thread because I’m sensitive where the animal kingdom is concerned and am with St. Francis all the way regarding God’s beloved creatures.
and btw, I’m a vegetarian but I’ll bet you suspected that…

 

[severus68]

I’m sorry, I couldn’t bear to read all the posts before responding and I can only speak for myself. Many wore “skins” in the old testament and they sacrificed animals too.
Then Jesus appeared. Animal sacrifice stopped except in backward places. We have a lot of things to make clothing with, we can even make artificial fur. Gortex and other artificial clothing repels the bitterest cold.
I say let God’s beautiful, innocent creatures live their lives and keep their skins. What else do they have but their bodies? They have no possessions. We may find out so much more about them when we finally get to heaven.
As St. Paul said, we can’t see now, but then we’ll know. I’ll bet there’s way more to this subject than we can imagine now.
I can’t see destroying a life to wear fur. It brings tears to my eyes. It’s not just limited to wild animals, and endangered species. In some countries they use the fur of cats too. I love cats.
Getting back to the subject; animals who are killed for their fur die a slow and painful death, the reason being so that the fur isn’t harmed. When I went into a Canadian shop with my sister some years ago, they had a variety of real fur hats. I said “they made hats out of my friends”. And as silly as that may sound to some; I really meant it. But that’s just me. I look at my cat sometimes and think of him as a magnificent creation of God, a work of art that has the breath of life.
Watch a tiger or leopard in a zoo or on t.v. or on a photo safari, then think of a woman wearing its skin. I was repelled once when I shared an elevator with a woman wearing a real silver fox fur. The weather wasn’t even that cold.
I definitely say using animals for their fur is immoral.
I won’t be returning to this thread because I’m sensitive where the animal kingdom is concerned and am with St. Francis all the way regarding God’s beloved creatures.
and btw, I’m a vegetarian but I’ll bet you suspected that…

You are a compassionate person Rosalie, God bless. The CCC makes statements, we do not have to do the minimum. It certainly is not out of necessity to make an animal suffer and kill it to sell its fur and for those to wear that fur when there are very affordable alternatives. I say no to fur, its immoral. I can understand someone who would die of the cold otherwise wearing fur.

I go to these threads as it is important that people know the views of those like us. I am a vegetarian too, trying to be a vegan but that may be practically impossible for personal reasons.

I strongly believe that the Church must lead the way with regard to animals. I admire Jesuit, Fr John Dear, he cares about people and animals.

 

[severus68]

I see what you saying. However, I wonder if that perspective is really doctrinal, or is if it is just theological speculation that has long been accepted. Since if death existed before God created man, what would explain it? Somehow, I do not think that God make death a part of this wotld, even for the most primitive organisms.

I agree with you, there was no death in the world God created and wanted. Sometimes I wonder about mosquitoes, lol. I have read a bit on the subject and the Church’s position on scientific discoveries about the age of the earth etc appears to be that while it will not dispute such findings, it is not concerned with such matters. Please correct me if I am wrong.

 

[Young_Thinker]

I agree with you, there was no death in the world God created and wanted. Sometimes I wonder about mosquitoes, lol. I have read a bit on the subject and the Church’s position on scientific discoveries about the age of the earth etc appears to be that while it will not dispute such findings, it is not concerned with such matters. Please correct me if I am wrong.

No, you are right as far I am aware.

 

[gurneyhalleck1]

So you have a sweet little animal that loves you unconditionally and comes back even when she’s mistreated…I fail to see how you can’t see the love as well as hunger in the animal’s eyes. If you were starving, I think you’d do some pretty “foolish” things to get food in your mouth, too, right? Starvation is humbling. But also, cats are loving creatures and very faithful. It’s a shame that the human masters can’t see that and cannot appreciate how God hardwired the animal for love and devotion…

I’ve called my cat stupid, foolish, and fat all for the lulz yet it still comes home and whines for us to feed it. It hardly squirms when I grab it and start ruffling its fuzz or giving it little noogies. All it does is make cute little mews with a blank face like this -w- or owo. It doesn’t hiss or screech when I squeeze its increasingly bulging belly in my hand. And despite how angry or rough my housekeeper is with it, it always lies about and tries to cuddle up to her leg.

.

 

[gurneyhalleck1]

I’m not sure how many times we can dance this dance, Lost. But I’ll try it one more time…I DO CARE about the starving filipinos. I’ve put my money where my mouth is MANY times in the Philippines. But I ALSO care about starving animals. It’s not “either—or” it’s both. I’ve tried to convey that to you but you keep saying I care about animals and not people. That’s not the case. I’ve made my case. I’ve repeated my love for humanity and animals. But I will say that humans who are cruel and barbaric and abusive to animals, in my personal opinion, sell out a piece of their humanity. And I’ve seen that…I find it tragic. I find human and animal degradation and suffering intolerable…BOTH.

Gusto ko ang mga animal at mga tao…

The price of a pet is only a small fraction of their overall costs. You missed the part where I spoke about how costly it is to raise a stray.

Again, you worry about skinny animals on the streets when I’ve seen people who suffer the same fate? Sorry but the CCC tells me to prioritize them over animals, even if it is just only my sympathy.

Ask him how much time and money does he spend on bird food and see if the lady at the palengke can afford just as much. My dad once tried to care for fish on the same level but the demands were too much for our income and his schedule.

 

[severus68]

QUOTE=Lost Wanderer;7748417]I’ve called my cat stupid, foolish, and fat all for the lulz yet it still comes home and whines for us to feed it. It hardly squirms when I grab it and start ruffling its fuzz or giving it little noogies. All it does is make cute little mews with a blank face like this -w- or owo. It doesn’t hiss or screech when I squeeze its increasingly bulging belly in my hand. And despite how angry or rough my housekeeper is with it, it always lies about and tries to cuddle up to her leg.

That tells me a lot about a cat’s level of humanity… or intelligence.

Humanity is an attribute of humans. Where is the humanity of someone who is cruel to an animal and allows his housekeeper to abuse his cat? Did I misunderstand what you said? Your cat has shown restraint and love.

Apparently, it sounds like you need to be more aware of just how wide the discrepancy there is amongst Filipino social classes. Take this video for instance. Mind you, I’ve had the same people come over to our house (which is hardly a mansion) just to ask for our leftovers.

I watched that video and was horrified. I am also horrified at the waste of those who can afford to go to fast food joints.Perhaps they should order less and give the money saved to their hungry countrymen. I have been to malls in Manila and have been puzzled at how Filipinos can afford even the buns and cakes at bakeries but they do buy them. There is an American fast food outlet on every street, who patronises them? Why are essentials like rice, soap and oil more expensive than most other countries in Asia?

You think I’m blind to how stupid my government is? I’m proud to be a Filipino. I’m proud of my country’s heritage both cultural and natural. However, I have hardly, if ever been, proud of my government and its history for botching up.

Then again, compared to you guys who’ve had more than a hundred years of independence, it’s not so much of a surprise. Why do you think I’m one of those in such a rush in leaving this mess? I’m sick of how underfunded everything is, not just animal shelters. I’m sick of seeing dirty streets with dirty animals and even dirtier beggars all the while being unable to do a thing about it.

I don’t really doubt the money being sent here. It’s pretty obvious that with our government’s history of corruption, we’re pretty much an Asian version of Mexico.

Also, it seems your observation has missed something. The masses are easily fooled when it comes politics. (Just look at our elections. What a joke! XD)

Yet people over here are dying and pushing their kids to college courses they don’t want just so they could get those “low wages”. Are you aware of just how many OFWs are domestic workers and laborers in the Middle East? You’ll find a sizable amount I’m sure. It’s the same with America. I’d bet a public school teacher earns way more there than they do here or I wouldn’t be setting my sights anywhere else. Ever thought of seeing how our currency is still puny compared to yours? A low wage there is enough to fuel a middle-class life here.

 

[gurneyhalleck1]

I had similar observations. The Philippines has totally been taken over by SM Malls. You can be in some armpit in Tarlac or in the middle of the provinces and there is an SM Mall in the middle of nothingness! And they don’t sell cheap stuff. It’s high end! And there are plenty of pinoys buying expensive clothes, eating fast food all the time, buying costly toys and the music store is filled, the pharmacies are filled, restaurants packed, there is a lot of $$$ being blown in those malls.

Filipinos love their groceries. They have fiestas for any reason. It could be secretaries day, lunar eclipse, leap year, or the anniversary of the invention of the cutip swab and they’ll party over it. Watching my wife’s family I was thinking, "if they just cut their fiestas 30% and stopped buying all these desserts from bakeries and pizzas and making all these bins of pancit and fancy dishes, they’d be financially set? The minute they get a peso in their hand, they run to the SM grocery store!

Humanity is an attribute of humans. Where is the humanity of someone who is cruel to an animal and allows his housekeeper to abuse his cat? Did I misunderstand what you said? Your cat has shown restraint and love.

I watched that video and was horrified. I am also horrified at the waste of those who can afford to go to fast food joints.Perhaps they should order less and give the money saved to their hungry countrymen. I have been to malls in Manila and have been puzzled at how Filipinos can afford even the buns and cakes at bakeries but they do buy them. There is an American fast food outlet on every street, who patronises them? Why are essentials like rice, soap and oil more expensive than most other countries in Asia?

 

[Lost_Wanderer]

It’s not “either—or” it’s both.

Not for most people. I’ve said that to you already too. I even said, good for ya that you can contribute to both causes.

Sadly that’s not the case for most people here. It’s like either eat this chicken, sell this pig, or slaughter this cow or I’m a starved man.