Is using animals for their fur moral or immoral?

[Lost_Wanderer]

Humanity is an attribute of humans. Where is the humanity of someone who is cruel to an animal and allows his housekeeper to abuse his cat? Did I misunderstand what you said? Your cat has shown restraint and love.

You’re being contradictory. Restraint and love on the level that you have spoken of require a sense of humanity. Now that you have conceded that only humans have that attribute, you cannot say the same about my cat. Furthermore, I do tell my housekeeper to go easy on it. The thing drives away rats and its belly makes a nice squash ball. Anything that hampers that ability is automatically bad news as I’ve suffered under rats long enough.

The only reason, and the most obvious one, why my cat stays is simply because of food, food, and more food. Heck it’s even annoying sometimes on how it’s always whining for more. This keeps up, it’s gonna end up like a gray, Filipino version of Garfield.

I watched that video and was horrified. I am also horrified at the waste of those who can afford to go to fast food joints. Perhaps they should order less and give the money saved to their hungry countrymen. I have been to malls in Manila and have been puzzled at how Filipinos can afford even the buns and cakes at bakeries but they do buy them. There is an American fast food outlet on every street, who patronises them? Why are essentials like rice, soap and oil more expensive than most other countries in Asia?

LOL!!! ROFL!!!
Please, why do you all act like as if big fancy Manila is the representative face of all Filipinos? I’ll have you know plenty of people here where I live tend to have a negative impression of Manila Filipinos. You’ll find fewer and smaller malls the more you go down south, trust me. Instead you’ll find more of the palengke, the carinderia, the banancue stands, as well as simple farm and country folk.

Growing up, I can tell you that most of it was spent having parents telling me to be thrifty and prudent with money and resources. They taught me only to be practical and realistic. Why do you think they’ve refused to buy me a pet bird when I was a small boy? Why do you think they’ve discouraged me from spending too much time and money on pets? It’s for the same reason they’ve discouraged me from spending too much time and money on toys, games, malling, and television.

Again, please. Dispel the notion you have from your impression of the excessive urbanites of the capital. There are plenty of Filipinos whose poverty or simply sense of practicality prevent them from excess luxuries. Such luxuries however, include pets and any fanciful treatment of farm fauna.

 

[gurneyhalleck1]

That’s not my observation of my wife’s family’s financial situation or my wife’s zillions of friends. None of them are doing “well” financially but all have enough money to blow on what I think are wasteful things. Surely they can afford to throw some scraps at their pets and it doesn’t cost anything to be kind to an animal, pet one, or give one water, right? There are enough scraps left over at my wife’s family’s table to feed an army…

Now, that being said, people at Smokey Mountain or the shanty towns I see outside of Manila, or the street beggers and uber poor, I can understand those people not owning a pet much less taking care of one. But the average pinoy can

a) throw some scraps to the local animals
b) be kind to them (which doesn’t cost any pesos, right? )

I’m not expecting each barangay to furnish dogs and cats with diamond collars and cavear, just kindness and a little humane care. That’s all I’m saying…

Not for most people. I’ve said that to you already too. I even said, good for ya that you can contribute to both causes.

Sadly that’s not the case for most people here. It’s like either eat this chicken, sell this pig, or slaughter this cow or I’m a starved man.

 

[severus68]

]QUOTE=Lost Wanderer;7751456]You’re being contradictory. Restraint and love on the level that you have spoken of require a sense of humanity. Now that you have conceded that only humans have that attribute, you cannot say the same about my cat. Furthermore, I do tell my housekeeper to go easy on it. The thing drives away rats and its belly makes a nice squash ball. Anything that hampers that ability is automatically bad news as I’ve suffered under rats long enough.

The only reason, and the most obvious one, why my cat stays is simply because of food, food, and more food. Heck it’s even annoying sometimes on how it’s always whining for more. This keeps up, it’s gonna end up like a gray, Filipino version of Garfield.

No I am not, you used the word "humanity’ with respect to your cat. By definition, it can only apply to humans. I have to disagree, animals can and feel love. By “restraint” I meant that an animal or human is likely to react negatively to abuse, your cat does not.

I assume that reference to squash ball is just to push my buttons.

LOL!!! ROFL!!!
Please, why do you all act like as if big fancy Manila is the representative face of all Filipinos? I’ll have you know plenty of people here where I live tend to have a negative impression of Manila Filipinos. You’ll find fewer and smaller malls the more you go down south, trust me. Instead you’ll find more of the palengke, the carinderia, the banancue stands, as well as simple farm and country folk.

Growing up, I can tell you that most of it was spent having parents telling me to be thrifty and prudent with money and resources. They taught me only to be practical and realistic. Why do you think they’ve refused to buy me a pet bird when I was a small boy? Why do you think they’ve discouraged me from spending too much time and money on pets? It’s for the same reason they’ve discouraged me from spending too much time and money on toys, games, malling, and television.

Again, please. Dispel the notion you have from your impression of the excessive urbanites of the capital. There are plenty of Filipinos whose poverty or simply sense of practicality prevent them from excess luxuries. Such luxuries however, include pets and any fanciful treatment of farm fauna.

Wasn’t that video made in Manila or another city or town with fast food outlets?

Your parents taught you well and you have a middle class lifestyle.

While it may be a luxury to buy and take care of exotic animals, why would it be a luxury to treat animals, farm or otherwise decently? If for example, someone has an ox to plough his land, he should feed, shelter and treat it properly at the least.

 

[Lost_Wanderer]

No I am not, you used the word "humanity’ with respect to your cat. By definition, it can only apply to humans. I have to disagree, animals can and feel love. By “restraint” I meant that an animal or human is likely to react negatively to abuse, your cat does not.

My cat does not because it doesn’t care. The thing you are all forgetting is that animals are in fact representative of the level that humans are reduced to when they sin or are victims of sin. I used the term humanity as something that is absent in my cat.

I make fun of my cat because know it doesn’t care, not because it shows restraint. It’s brain is not hardwired to understand. The only thing it (along with the rest of the animal kingdom) cares about is physical survival. In fact, the very reason why it’s closest to my housekeeper the most is because of this simple formula.

She = Food

She brings it our scraps. Therefore, the furball sucks up to her because this thing is always hungry.

I assume that reference to squash ball is just to push my buttons.

No, it’s really nice to squeeze that thing’s stomach. It’s getting fat, really fat.

Wasn’t that video made in Manila or another city or town with fast food outlets?

That’s no excuse to say that the captial is the face of the Filipino. In fact, it’s the face of the poor that often remind us how our country’s still stuck with the Third World label. I’m not the only Filipino who notices the discrepancy between the lifestyles of those in the north and of those further down south.

While it may be a luxury to buy and take care of exotic animals, why would it be a luxury to treat animals, farm or otherwise decently?

Exotic? I asked my parents for a pet maya (a bird you can virtually catch anywhere in this country). I pondered about owning a goat or a pig and all I got were jokes on how long it’ll be before I sell them. I’ve owned chicks who grew up but even then I knew they were just going to end up in the cooking pot.

If for example, someone has an ox to plough his land, he should feed, shelter and treat it properly at the least.

Sure farmers treat them properly.
They just let them wallow in the nearest mud hole.

That’s how cheap it gets around here when it comes to farm animals.

 

[gurneyhalleck1]

This view that animals are so repugnant, it’s just disturbing. The comparison that animals are what we are reduced to when we sin is nonsense. God made animals for Adam to love. Did you forget that fact? God made them for Adam to please him, to bring him joy and EVERYTHING God makes is “good,” right? Remember that from Genesis? All God’s creations are GOOD…

You’re right, animals aren’t intellectuals. They aren’t Harvard professors. God didn’t mean them to be. But if we can’t even treat creatures with a humane kindness who are below us, what does that say about us?

Again, it’s a mentality. Americans, by and large (not all!!) care about animals and respect them. We treat them with respect and those that don’t are the lower life forms of our country.

You talk about animals wanting food and to survive…with all due respect–duh!? Don’t you want food in your mouth and belly? I know I do! And when you’re wandering the streets starving, it’s amazing what you’ll lower yourself to do to get it. Survival is part of it. But not all the snuggling and purring and warmth cats or dogs give is because of food. They have the capacity to love their masters and they’re surprisingly perceptive about when their master is depressed, sad, hurting, or confused. It’s amazing…

If you gave them a chance, you’d be surprised…

Also, I don’t consider a cat “a thing,” but a girl or a boy cat… They’re not inanimate objects. They do have feelings

My cat does not because it doesn’t care. The thing you are all forgetting is that animals are in fact representative of the level that humans are reduced to when they sin or are victims of sin. I used the term humanity as something that is absent in my cat.

I make fun of my cat because know it doesn’t care, not because it shows restraint. It’s brain is not hardwired to understand. The only thing it (along with the rest of the animal kingdom) cares about is physical survival. In fact, the very reason why it’s closest to my housekeeper the most is because of this simple formula.

She = Food

She brings it our scraps. Therefore, the furball sucks up to her because this thing is always hungry.

No, it’s really nice to squeeze that thing’s stomach. It’s getting fat, really fat.

That’s no excuse to say that the captial is the face of the Filipino. In fact, it’s the face of the poor that often remind us how our country’s still stuck with the Third World label. I’m not the only Filipino who notices the discrepancy between the lifestyles of those in the north and of those further down south.

Exotic? I asked my parents for a pet maya (a bird you can virtually catch anywhere in this country). I pondered about owning a goat or a pig and all I got were jokes on how long it’ll be before I sell them. I’ve owned chicks who grew up but even then I knew they were just going to end up in the cooking pot.

Sure farmers treat them properly.
They just let them wallow in the nearest mud hole.

That’s how cheap it gets around here when it comes to farm animals.

 

[Lost_Wanderer]

This view that animals are so repugnant, it’s just disturbing. The comparison that animals are what we are reduced to when we sin is nonsense.

Read the Catechism and recall how we debate things such as sexual morality. The dignity of the human being is based on the idea that we are above animals and such treatment demands we do not reduce it to their level. The major portion of Catholic morality is centered on the idea of how to be truly human with little mention of glorifying animals in that same manner. If you refuse to acknowledge that animals are at a level that a human is not supposed to reduce himself/herself to then you are on your way to violating Church teaching far more gravely than any animal abuser. Even the command of treating animals with respect, a command that you and many others have alluded, is centered towards the humanity of the human being and does not suppose any “humanity” for animals. Animals certainly don’t care about each other granted how they’re always at each other’s throats. My cat certainly doesn’t care about the rights of the roaches or rats it chases.

 

[gurneyhalleck1]

Absurdity. You’re making a strawman argument that we animal-lovers equate animals to human beings. Despite a zillion posts here you still aren’t listening. Nobody is saying animals and humans have parity. But I think you’re ignoring the catechism where it suits you!

You pick and choose the catechism to fit your agenda, Lost. You try to condemn people with compassion as worshipping lower creatures and not caring about humanity or God, which are nonsensical arguments entirely. I have told you that God made animals to bring joy to Adam. You didn’t respond to that. God didn’t give animals to Adam to demean and torture and neglect, did He? Animals are a blessing for mankind, to you they’re a nuissance.

Since you bring up the catechism so much:

Animals are God’s creatures. He surrounds them with his providential care. By their mere existence they bless him and give him glory. Thus men owe them kindness. We should recall the gentleness with which saints like St. Francis of Assisi or St. Philip Neri treated animals.

So, Lost, remember, YOU OWE THEM KINDNESS as per the catechism, right!? The Filipino culture has a long way to go in obeying this important piece…

Read the Catechism and recall how we debate things such as sexual morality. The dignity of the human being is based on the idea that we are above animals and such treatment demands we do not reduce it to their level. The major portion of Catholic morality is centered on the idea of how to be truly human with little mention of glorifying animals in that same manner. If you refuse to acknowledge that animals are at a level that a human is not supposed to reduce himself/herself to then you are on your way to violating Church teaching far more gravely than any animal abuser. Even the command of treating animals with respect, a command that you and many others have alluded, is centered towards the humanity of the human being and does not suppose any “humanity” for animals. Animals certainly don’t care about each other granted how they’re always at each other’s throats. My cat certainly doesn’t care about the rights of the roaches or rats it chases.

 

[gurneyhalleck1]

Lost Wanderer,

I’m terribly disappointed at your attitude toward God’s creatures and your disregard for the blessings, love, and trust that animals give to us to be good stewards of the earth. In my visits to the Philippines I have observed intense cruelty that has made me lose respect for the culture to some degree and I have no desire to visit the Islands any time in the foreseeable future. My wife will probably go there by herself next time. Besides catching Typhoid Fever from the terrible lack of cleanliness in food preparation over there, the animal cruelty is just too much to see.

I hope you’ll reconsider your views. Americans are not perfect people. We’re quite flawed, but we have a marvelous compassion and love for both our fellow man AND our animal friends. It’s a sign of our greatness that we love the disenfranchised and the lowly, and we appreciate the blessings God gives us all over, including animals. We hate to see suffering, inhumane practices, and neglect.

You seem determined to leave the Philippines and come to a Western country, etc. May God bless your attempts to leave the Phils. But I hope when you come to, say, the U.S. or Canada or the UK, you will take note of our compassion and perhaps learn something. You are an intelligent person but I think you have a lot of room to grow in the compassion to animals department. I hope when you emigrate you’ll learn this wonderful aspect of the West…

I’m unsubscribing to this thread as it is pointless and like a cat chasing its tail. God bless…I hope you reconsider…

 

[severus68]

My cat does not because it doesn’t care

. The thing you are all forgetting is that animals are in fact representative of the level that humans are reduced to when they sin or are victims of sin. I used the term humanity as something that is absent in my cat.

I make fun of my cat because know it doesn’t care, not because it shows restraint. It’s brain is not hardwired to understand. The only thing it (along with the rest of the animal kingdom) cares about is physical survival. In fact, the very reason why it’s closest to my housekeeper the most is because of this simple formula.

She = Food

She brings it our scraps. Therefore, the furball sucks up to her because this thing is always hungry.

No, it’s really nice to squeeze that thing’s stomach. It’s getting fat, really fat.

 

[Lost_Wanderer]

You pick and choose the catechism to fit your agenda, Lost. You try to condemn people with compassion as worshipping lower creatures and not caring about humanity or God, which are nonsensical arguments entirely. I have told you that God made animals to bring joy to Adam. You didn’t respond to that.

He gave Adam dominion. From the start, you’ve been arguing with an naive, unrealistic idea that people don’t have to choose between their own welfare and that of animals. I’ve lived long enough here to say that the environment forces us to make that decision. You’re lucky that you have the luxury to choose both but that is not an option here regardless of how many Manila Pinoys you’ve met.

Since you bring up the catechism so much:

Animals are God’s creatures. He surrounds them with his providential care. By their mere existence they bless him and give him glory. Thus men owe them kindness. We should recall the gentleness with which saints like St. Francis of Assisi or St. Philip Neri treated animals.

So, Lost, remember, YOU OWE THEM KINDNESS as per the catechism, right!? The Filipino culture has a long way to go in obeying this important piece…

LOL! You consider a measly passage out of the whole Catechism regarding animals an ‘important’ piece? The fact that you cite that out of the grand bulk in which the Catechism focuses on man’s relationship with other men as well as God shows that you’re the one who has been picking and choosing.

Have you read what it says right after?

2417

 

[Lost_Wanderer]

A human being left in the wild with nothing will also care about survival.

Hence why we consider such things a violation of human rights and is therefore morally wrong. What are you trying to prove? My point? The funny thing about us humans is that our needs go beyond that of simply basic biological necessities.

Animals such as my cat on the other hand, having no humanity, don’t have any desire beyond that of survival. Hence, why give them something they don’t need? You animal lovers claim that you don’t treat animals the same as you do people but the more you talk, the more it sounds like somebody is in denial.

I treat my cat the way that befits its species, nothing more.

So you think its fun to hurt your cat?

But of course, especially after it makes a nasty mess in the hallway instead of outside. (Apparently we can’t afford a litter box). The stupid, dumb meows it makes are really cute and it hardly gives a hoot.

squeezes cats belly

Cat: Meow… -w-.

Well then, my earlier post about those eating in fast food joints be less wasteful and help their hungry country men still applies.

You’re note getting the message are you? We struggle with class discrepancy. The wasteful attitudes you see and the fact that you think such folks are the face of the Filipino people deliberately ignore this.

You obviously live a comfortable life even if you are not wealthy.

Comfortable? Sure until the overcharging water and electric bill comes in the mail.

I think you may be doing some of your countrymen an injustice. While farmers may not have the means to indulge, some do try to treat their animals kindly. This fact I have obtained from Filipinos I know. Poverty does not necessitate cruelty

Yet you folks complain about the way we roast our pigs.

 

[severus68]

Hence why we consider such things a violation of human rights and is therefore morally wrong. What are you trying to prove? My point? The funny thing about us humans is that our needs go beyond that of simply basic biological necessities.

Animals such as my cat on the other hand, having no humanity, don’t have any desire beyond that of survival. Hence, why give them something they don’t need? You animal lovers claim that you don’t treat animals the same as you do people but the more you talk, the more it sounds like somebody is in denial.

I treat my cat the way that befits its species, nothing more.

But of course, especially after it makes a nasty mess in the hallway instead of outside. (Apparently we can’t afford a litter box). The stupid, dumb meows it makes are really cute and it hardly gives a hoot.

squeezes cats belly

Cat: Meow… -w-.

You’re note getting the message are you? We struggle with class discrepancy. The wasteful attitudes you see and the fact that you think such folks are the face of the Filipino people deliberately ignore this.

Comfortable? Sure until the overcharging water and electric bill comes in the mail.

Yet you folks complain about the way we roast our pigs.

I have tried to be respectful in my posts but you do not seem to want to discuss and listen to other views. High water and electricity bills? Do you really think you have a monopoly on that ?

I could go on about your views on the treatment of non humans but I do not see any point. I just feel so very sorry for the animals you own and control, they are obviously not pets and you believe you can do whatever you want with them. God protect them.

This will be my last response to you.

 

[Lost_Wanderer]

I have tried to be respectful in my posts but you do not seem to want to discuss and listen to other views.

I could say the same for you and every other animal lover here.

High water and electricity bills? Do you really think you have a monopoly on that ?

I can’t see how that is relevant seeing as how my country’s economy makes even the middle-class income difficult to pay for such things.

I could go on about your views on the treatment of non humans but I do not see any point.

That’s what they always say.