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TheProphet
Guest
In the name of Allah, the Most Beneficent, the Most Merciful!
I want to ask the question in the thread title to Catholics here.
I want to ask the question in the thread title to Catholics here.
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Fergal
Guest
No. The Vatican is only a district. (see below)
The Pope is the representative of Jesus Christ. He is called the Vicar of Christ. Since Jesus Christ is true God and true Man then the Bishop of Rome becomes God’s representative.
According to Catholic dogma, the Pope is God’s representative on earth and God guides him as he cares for his flock.
Your title for God is Allah therefore the Pope is Allah’s representative.
New Advent states: The territory on the right bank of the Tiber between Monte Mario and Gianicolo (Janiculum) was known to antiquity as the Ager Vaticanus, and, owing to its marshy character, the low-lying portion of this district enjoyed an ill repute. The origin of the name Vaticanus is uncertain; some claim that the name comes from a vanished Etruscan town called Vaticum. This district did not belong to ancient Rome, nor was it included within the city walls built by Emperor Aurelian. In the imperial gardens situated in this section was the Circus of Nero. At the foot of the Vatican Hill lay the ancient Basilica of St. Peter. By extensive purchases of land the medieval popes acquired possession of the whole hill, thus preparing the way for building activity. Communication with the city was established by the Pons Ælius, which led directly to the mausoleum of Hadrian. Between 848 and 852 Leo IV surrounded the whole settlement with a wall, which included it within the city boundaries. Until the pontificate of Sixtus V this section of Rome remained a private papal possession and was entrusted to a special administration. Sixtus, however, placed it under the jurisdiction of the urban authorities as the fourteenth region.
The Pope is the representative of Jesus Christ. He is called the Vicar of Christ. Since Jesus Christ is true God and true Man then the Bishop of Rome becomes God’s representative.
According to Catholic dogma, the Pope is God’s representative on earth and God guides him as he cares for his flock.
Your title for God is Allah therefore the Pope is Allah’s representative.
New Advent states: The territory on the right bank of the Tiber between Monte Mario and Gianicolo (Janiculum) was known to antiquity as the Ager Vaticanus, and, owing to its marshy character, the low-lying portion of this district enjoyed an ill repute. The origin of the name Vaticanus is uncertain; some claim that the name comes from a vanished Etruscan town called Vaticum. This district did not belong to ancient Rome, nor was it included within the city walls built by Emperor Aurelian. In the imperial gardens situated in this section was the Circus of Nero. At the foot of the Vatican Hill lay the ancient Basilica of St. Peter. By extensive purchases of land the medieval popes acquired possession of the whole hill, thus preparing the way for building activity. Communication with the city was established by the Pons Ælius, which led directly to the mausoleum of Hadrian. Between 848 and 852 Leo IV surrounded the whole settlement with a wall, which included it within the city boundaries. Until the pontificate of Sixtus V this section of Rome remained a private papal possession and was entrusted to a special administration. Sixtus, however, placed it under the jurisdiction of the urban authorities as the fourteenth region.
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oat_soda
Guest
the vatican is just the city state of the bishop of rome and is its own country. the pope is a bishop with a special charism. all bishops are shepards and servants of the faithful.
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TheProphet
Guest
In the name of Allah, the Most Beneficent, the Most Merciful
And how you can be very sure that Jesus chose the chosen Pope? Isn’t the Pope elected by men?
And the second question, why the decree from Vatican is seen as infallible?
And how you can be very sure that Jesus chose the chosen Pope? Isn’t the Pope elected by men?
And the second question, why the decree from Vatican is seen as infallible?
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exoflare
Guest
Baited questions like this are funny.
But anyway, he sure is elected by men. Just like how men actually put ink to paper when listening to the words of another man when writing the words of the Quran.
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tTt
Guest
The magisterium is the visible representation of ABBA, the father.
239 By calling God “Father”, the language of faith indicates two main things: that God is the first origin of everything and transcendent authority; and that he is at the same time goodness and loving care for all his children. God’s parental tenderness can also be expressed by the image of motherhood,62 which emphasizes God’s immanence, the intimacy between Creator and creature. the language of faith thus draws on the human experience of parents, who are in a way the first representatives of God for man. But this experience also tells us that human parents are fallible and can disfigure the face of fatherhood and motherhood. We ought therefore to recall that God transcends the human distinction between the sexes. He is neither man nor woman: he is God. He also transcends human fatherhood and motherhood, although he is their origin and standard:63 no one is father as God is Father. CCC
239 By calling God “Father”, the language of faith indicates two main things: that God is the first origin of everything and transcendent authority; and that he is at the same time goodness and loving care for all his children. God’s parental tenderness can also be expressed by the image of motherhood,62 which emphasizes God’s immanence, the intimacy between Creator and creature. the language of faith thus draws on the human experience of parents, who are in a way the first representatives of God for man. But this experience also tells us that human parents are fallible and can disfigure the face of fatherhood and motherhood. We ought therefore to recall that God transcends the human distinction between the sexes. He is neither man nor woman: he is God. He also transcends human fatherhood and motherhood, although he is their origin and standard:63 no one is father as God is Father. CCC
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TheProphet
Guest
In the name of Allah, the Most Beneficent, the Most Merciful
Explore,
Baited questions like this are funny.
Explore,
Baited questions like this are funny.
But anyway, he sure is elected by men. Just like how men actually put ink to paper when listening to the words of another man when writing the words of the Quran.
Since when you always try to avoid question by using that invalid “you too” argument? If you want to discuss about Holy Quran, make another thread.
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exoflare
Guest
It’s not a “you too” argument… I’m asking how you find man’s involvement in the Pope’s election somehow nullifies any claim the papacy has to God’s protection, yet you overlook man’s involvement with things like your prophet and the now-defunct position of Caliph (wasn’t he selected by men too?). So, what’s the difference?
You’re only using the same old double standard found in the trite “laws of men” argument.
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George_Waters
Guest
This seems to be your forte!
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TheProphet
Guest
In the name of Allah, the Most Beneficent, the Most Merciful
Expore,
It’s not a “you too” argument… I’m asking how you find man’s involvement in the Pope’s election somehow nullifies any claim the papacy has to God’s protection, yet you overlook man’s involvement with things like your prophet and the now-defunct position of Caliph (wasn’t he selected by men too?). So, what’s the difference?
George,
This seems to be your forte!
But that’s the fact and you can’t deny it. Sadly, both of you keep on repeating again and again.
Expore,
It’s not a “you too” argument… I’m asking how you find man’s involvement in the Pope’s election somehow nullifies any claim the papacy has to God’s protection, yet you overlook man’s involvement with things like your prophet and the now-defunct position of Caliph (wasn’t he selected by men too?). So, what’s the difference?
You’re only using the same old double standard found in the trite “laws of men” argument.
We are talking about Vatican Decree, and not Bible or Quran. I offered you to open another thread. But you use the “you too” argument by saying implicitly, “But you too …your Quran…” That’s not a valid argument. Clear?George,
This seems to be your forte!
But that’s the fact and you can’t deny it. Sadly, both of you keep on repeating again and again.
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st.jerome
Guest
The one God in three persons does not abandon the Church. Jesus instituted the Church as the Holy Spirit guides and protects it. As the Church is constituted of human beings, we receive the inspiration of the Holy Spirit to avoid grievous errors. In such a way does the Vatican avoid significant fallacies. I should add that no person is immune form making mistakes, but the Gates of Hell do not prevail against the Church.
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BillyT92679
Guest
We believe that Jesus Christ is God, you do not. You believe that Mohammad is a prophet, we do not. From believing in the Deity of the Most Holy Savior of the world, we believe that Jesus Christ in His plan for us selected the Apostle Peter to be the visible sign of unity for His Church. And He gave Peter a special protection when Peter and his successors teach from their throne, they will be protected from teaching error.
You can defend what you believe, we defend what we believe, but we come from very different perspectives, and neither one of us is going to change.
You can defend what you believe, we defend what we believe, but we come from very different perspectives, and neither one of us is going to change.
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TheProphet
Guest
In the name of Allah, the Most Beneficent, the Most Merciful
Billy,
We believe that Jesus Christ is God, you do not. You believe that Mohammad is a prophet, we do not. From believing in the Deity of the Most Holy Savior of the world, we believe that Jesus Christ in His plan for us selected the Apostle Peter to be the visible sign of unity for His Church. And He gave Peter a special protection when Peter and his successors teach from their throne, they will be protected from teaching error.
Billy,
We believe that Jesus Christ is God, you do not. You believe that Mohammad is a prophet, we do not. From believing in the Deity of the Most Holy Savior of the world, we believe that Jesus Christ in His plan for us selected the Apostle Peter to be the visible sign of unity for His Church. And He gave Peter a special protection when Peter and his successors teach from their throne, they will be protected from teaching error.
You can defend what you believe, we defend what we believe, but we come from very different perspectives, and neither one of us is going to change.
We believe that Jesus is a prophet. But I believe that none in your Bible said that Vatican is a representative of God and can make infallible decree. If you have verses, put them all here.
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Tanith
Guest
Why making such a fuss? Islam will be found as a false way. There will only be another Pope after this Benedict, for it has been written in the Book of Life.
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Cyber_Knight
Guest
When would that be found?.. just curious…
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exoflare
Guest
Excuse me? A “you too” argument consists of not answering the question posed to you, and then throwing the very same charge at your opponent. It’s a diversionary tactic.
Notice I directly answered your question that yes, the Pope is elected by men… I take no issue whatsoever with this statement. However, when I proceed to ask you for the reason why your logic of man’s involvement somehow proving lack of divine intervention only applies to the Pope, and not to the Quran or the office of Caliph (which are also the products of human activity), you avoid answering my question and then accuse me of a logical fallacy that I had never committed in the first place.
So, put quite simply… I already answered your question; now please answer mine.
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Semper_Fi_1
Guest
The Holy Bible is not the only part of our deposit of faith. We have the Magisterium of the Catholic Church, the Extraordinary Magisterium of the Catholic Church and the Ecumenical Councils, and the writings of the Early Christian Fathers from around 70AD onward and the Bible. You have the Quran and Hadith, this is our structure. We believe the words of Jesus when he told Saint Peter, “On this rock [Peter] I will build my Church, and the Gates of Hell shall not prevail.” Ss. Peter & Paul were martyred in Rome, and founded the Church there. As such, all of his successors, through the laying on of hands, are rightly in Peter’s authority given to him by Jesus Christ to be shepherd of the Church through apostolic succession. One more thing, the Pope as a man isn’t infallible, but as the leader of the Church on Earth, when speaking ex cathedra in the matters of faith and morals is declared to be infallible. This is because we believe Jesus’ words when He said “the gates of Hell shall not prevail.” We also believe that the Holy Spirit, the 3rd person of the Blessed Trinity guides His church during Papal elections.
Written around 107 AD, by the Holy Martyr Saint Ignatius of Antioch (who studied under the Apostles who new the Christ personally and died at the colosseum at Rome):
Saint Ignatius of Antioch:
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TheProphet
Guest
In the name of Allah, the Most Beneficent, the Most Merciful
Tanith,
Why making such a fuss? Islam will be found as a false way. There will only be another Pope after this Benedict, for it has been written in the Book of Life.
The most ridiculous and baseless answer from a Catholic that I’ve ever heard.
Exoflare,
Excuse me? A “you too” argument consists of not answering the question posed to you, and then throwing the very same charge at your opponent. It’s a diversionary tactic.
Notice I directly answered your question that yes, the Pope is elected by men… I take no issue whatsoever with this statement. However, when I proceed to ask you for the reason why your logic of man’s involvement somehow proving lack of divine intervention only applies to the Pope, and not to the Quran or the office of Caliph (which are also the products of human activity), you avoid answering my question and then accuse me of a logical fallacy that I had never committed in the first place.
So, put quite simply… I already answered your question; now please answer mine.
See again your answer. You throw a confession that your pope is elected by men - and not by God, so can he be a representative of God?
What I mean that “you too” is, after saying that, you then drag the Quran, which is not the topid OF THIS THREAD. If you want, I have politely offered you, open another thread about that. You try to devoid my further question by questioning Holy Quran in a thread design to question Vatican. Shame on you.
Semper Fi,
The Holy Bible is not the only part of our deposit of faith. We have the Magisterium of the Catholic Church, the Extraordinary Magisterium of the Catholic Church and the Ecumenical Councils, and the writings of the Early Christian Fathers from around 70AD onward and the Bible. You have the Quran and Hadith, this is our structure. We believe the words of Jesus when he told Saint Peter, “On this rock [Peter] I will build my Church, and the Gates of Hell shall not prevail.” Ss. Peter & Paul were martyred in Rome, and founded the Church there. As such, all of his successors, through the laying on of hands, are rightly in Peter’s authority given to him by Jesus Christ to be shepherd of the Church through apostolic succession. One more thing, the Pope as a man isn’t infallible, but as the leader of the Church on Earth, when speaking ex cathedra in the matters of faith and morals is declared to be infallible. This is because we believe Jesus’ words when He said “the gates of Hell shall not prevail.” We also believe that the Holy Spirit, the 3rd person of the Blessed Trinity guides His church during Papal elections.
Written around 107 AD, by the Holy Martyr Saint Ignatius of Antioch (who studied under the Apostles who new the Christ personally and died at the colosseum at Rome):
I respect you more than others, because you are really a scholar.
I will write more abou the history of Early Church then.
Tanith,
Why making such a fuss? Islam will be found as a false way. There will only be another Pope after this Benedict, for it has been written in the Book of Life.
The most ridiculous and baseless answer from a Catholic that I’ve ever heard.
Exoflare,
Excuse me? A “you too” argument consists of not answering the question posed to you, and then throwing the very same charge at your opponent. It’s a diversionary tactic.
Notice I directly answered your question that yes, the Pope is elected by men… I take no issue whatsoever with this statement. However, when I proceed to ask you for the reason why your logic of man’s involvement somehow proving lack of divine intervention only applies to the Pope, and not to the Quran or the office of Caliph (which are also the products of human activity), you avoid answering my question and then accuse me of a logical fallacy that I had never committed in the first place.
So, put quite simply… I already answered your question; now please answer mine.
See again your answer. You throw a confession that your pope is elected by men - and not by God, so can he be a representative of God?
What I mean that “you too” is, after saying that, you then drag the Quran, which is not the topid OF THIS THREAD. If you want, I have politely offered you, open another thread about that. You try to devoid my further question by questioning Holy Quran in a thread design to question Vatican. Shame on you.
Semper Fi,
The Holy Bible is not the only part of our deposit of faith. We have the Magisterium of the Catholic Church, the Extraordinary Magisterium of the Catholic Church and the Ecumenical Councils, and the writings of the Early Christian Fathers from around 70AD onward and the Bible. You have the Quran and Hadith, this is our structure. We believe the words of Jesus when he told Saint Peter, “On this rock [Peter] I will build my Church, and the Gates of Hell shall not prevail.” Ss. Peter & Paul were martyred in Rome, and founded the Church there. As such, all of his successors, through the laying on of hands, are rightly in Peter’s authority given to him by Jesus Christ to be shepherd of the Church through apostolic succession. One more thing, the Pope as a man isn’t infallible, but as the leader of the Church on Earth, when speaking ex cathedra in the matters of faith and morals is declared to be infallible. This is because we believe Jesus’ words when He said “the gates of Hell shall not prevail.” We also believe that the Holy Spirit, the 3rd person of the Blessed Trinity guides His church during Papal elections.
Written around 107 AD, by the Holy Martyr Saint Ignatius of Antioch (who studied under the Apostles who new the Christ personally and died at the colosseum at Rome):
I respect you more than others, because you are really a scholar.
I will write more abou the history of Early Church then.
B
Booklover
Guest
We wait with bated breath! I’m sure it will be from Muslim sources of course which should make it very “authentic”!
Well, it should be entertaining at the very least and non complimentary of course!Vickie
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Subrosa
Guest
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