Is Worship of the Virgin Mary a Legitimate issue?

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Is worship of the Virgin Mary a legitimate issue? Yes. It is a legitimate issue, because of the fear, that protestants have instilled in Catholics, of the word ’worship’. Whether you use one of the ‘ia’ words or say ‘veneration’, it is still worship.

Now, do Catholics worship Mary as God? No.

Do Catholics worship Mary instead of God? No.

The worship of Mary is the will of God. Not because it takes anything away from the worship of God, but because the worship of Mary enhances the worship of God. Mary is God’s most perfect creation. It is because of God’s love of Mary that the universe, and we, exist. That, alone, should be enough for us to worship Mary.

As posted earlier, reading True Devotion to Mary (and, I will add, The Glories of Mary) will help you understand what worship of Mary is and that you should not be afraid or embarrassed to admit it.
 
I really don’t think any Catholics worship Mary. I seriously doubt that it is an issue at all. I have known many Catholics and none of them have ever worshiped Mary but have venerated her in the manner that she deserves since she is the Mother of God and our Queen.
The answer is to be fair is sometimes yes and by some Catholics, it is impossible to believe not one Catholic ever worshipped Mary,

Consider the Rosary is dominated by prayers to Mary and limited to God.
 
Consider the Rosary is dominated by prayers to Mary and limited to God.
The Rosary is directed to God, recalling the life of Christ, prayed with Mary.

This is how the Doctor of the Church St. Robert Bellarmine S.I. describes it in “The Hidden Secrets of the Rosary”:
The Rosary begins with that grand profession of faith, the sign of the cross, wherein is expressed a belief in the threefold mystery of the unity of God’s nature, of the Trinity of the divine persons, and of the Incarnation. Then, as though ill content with so brief an exposition of his belief, the pious follower of the Rosary is next led on to give a fuller declaration of his faith in the inspired words of the Apostles’ Creed. Thus he declares himself not only a believer but a staunch defender of all the truths from the Alpha to the Omega of Christian doctrine.
Then begins the Rosary proper. First comes the “Our Father.” Of the excellence of this prayer, it is enough to say that it is the most perfect of all prayers, having Christ Himself for its Author.
The “Hail Mary” follows with loving persistency we repeat the words God addressed to Mary through the Arch-Angel Gabriel, while with St. Elizabeth we congratulate her on the great things the Omnipotent has done to her. And as often as we recall Mary’s transcendent dignity as the Mother of God, so often do we in the “Holy Mary,” invoke her powerful intercession for us poor sinners now, and especially at the hour of our death.
Finally, we at the end of each decade turn from Mary, her honor and perfections, to Mary’s Creator, the sole Author of her greatness, the one Source of all good things, and we say, “Glory be to the Father, and to the Son, and to the Holy Ghost.”
It’s all about God…only and always about God.

As for the repetition of the Ave Maria, which our brothers don’t like and few Catholics understand:
a prayer that is at the same time vocal and mental is, all things being equal, essentially perfect. Now such is the Rosary, the idea of which is to keep the mind engaged in holy meditations, while the lips are singing the praises of God.
…]
beautiful thoughts …] occupy the mind while our lips are praising God in language commended by Himself, and our hands keeping time to our thoughts and words on a little instrument invented for her wayward children by our own loving Mother.
I have found this book a must-read, along with “The Secret of the Rosary” by St. Louis Marie de Monfort.
 
I don’t think Marian worship is an issue in the Church for those who know what the Church’s teachings are on the matter. However, for those who do not know the Church’s teachings, this might be a misconception they have about the Church that could lead them away from the faith if they are cornered by a non-Catholic.

In essence, the misconception that we worship Mary is not a problem because the Church is very clear on this throughout the whole CCC. The real problem is peoples’ lack of knowledge on the subject and, in this age, their unwillingness to search it out.
 
The Rosary is directed to God, recalling the life of Christ, prayed with Mary.
I must say that praying the rosary and meditating on its mysteries has really helped me understand Jesus Christ and the sacrifice he made much better than before I stared praying it. The rosary has become a daily ritual for me.
 
I am sure that many Catholics (as well as Protestants) cannot explain the distinctions of Latria, Dulia, and Hyperdulia.

Of course they couldn’t if they haven’t heard those terms before. I need to look up a dictionary every day when I am reading non-fiction; this habit of a lifetime has given me quite a good written and spoken vocabulary. If we just stuck with the words we know - at what age? - our speech and our understanding would be impoverished.
 
Yes, this. And a very important topic. I also never knew the difference in these terms until coming here. If asked before if we worship Mary, I’d have said “NO!!”. Now my response is “define “worship””.
I can’t imagine that going well. At all…
Is worship of the Virgin Mary a legitimate issue? Yes. It is a legitimate issue, because of the fear, that protestants have instilled in Catholics, of the word ’worship’. Whether you use one of the ‘ia’ words or say ‘veneration’, it is still worship.

Now, do Catholics worship Mary as God? No.

Do Catholics worship Mary instead of God? No.

The worship of Mary is the will of God. Not because it takes anything away from the worship of God, but because the worship of Mary enhances the worship of God. Mary is God’s most perfect creation. It is because of God’s love of Mary that the universe, and we, exist. That, alone, should be enough for us to worship Mary.

As posted earlier, reading True Devotion to Mary (and, I will add, The Glories of Mary) will help you understand what worship of Mary is and that you should not be afraid or embarrassed to admit it.
Do the Scriptures, does the Church, doesn’t JESUS CHRIST say worship no one accept the Lord your God??? Adoration and veneration CAN mean worship in many instances, but in this one it doesn’t. It means to revere for honor.
 
If the answer to the question “Do we worship anything else but God?” Is anything else but “no,” then I’m out…
 
I am sure that many Catholics (as well as Protestants) cannot explain the distinctions of Latria, Dulia, and Hyperdulia.

Of course they couldn’t if they haven’t heard those terms before. I need to look up a dictionary every day when I am reading non-fiction; this habit of a lifetime has given me quite a good written and spoken vocabulary. If we just stuck with the words we know - at what age? - our speech and our understanding would be impoverished.
I would say regardless of whether they know the terms or not, the huge majority of Catholics instinctively understand that Mary is definitely not to hold the same honoured place in the scheme of things as the persons of the Holy Trinity, but is on a level well below and different to theirs. And equally instinctively understand that the Blessed Virgin does hold a more exalted place than any of the other Saints (she is called Queen of Heaven after all).

So I think there is little risk of anyone inadvertently or intentionally giving Mary anything more than her due, and if anything the real risk is that we give her less.
 
Is it possible that different nationalities have different understandings of Mary, and perhaps slip into “worship” of Mary rather than veneration?
 
Its possible Catholic’s do not read the Catechism or inquire further into this question through our own Christian history.

968 Her role in relation to the Church and to all humanity goes still further. “In a wholly singular way she cooperated by her obedience, faith, hope, and burning charity in the Savior’s work of restoring supernatural life to souls. For this reason she is a mother to us in the order of grace.”

969 “This motherhood of Mary in the order of grace continues uninterruptedly from the consent which she loyally gave at the Annunciation and which she sustained without wavering beneath the cross, until the eternal fulfilment of all the elect. Taken up to heaven she did not lay aside this saving office but by her manifold intercession continues to bring us the gifts of eternal salvation … Therefore the Blessed Virgin is invoked in the Church under the titles of Advocate, Helper, Benefactress, and Mediatrix.”

970 “Mary’s function as mother of men in no way obscures or diminishes this unique mediation of Christ, but rather shows its power. But the Blessed Virgin’s salutary influence on men . . . flows forth from the superabundance of the merits of Christ, rests on his mediation, depends entirely on it, and draws all its power from it.”
“No creature could ever be counted along with the Incarnate Word and Redeemer; but just as the priesthood of Christ is shared in various ways both by his ministers and the faithful, and as the one goodness of God is radiated in different ways among his creatures, so also the unique mediation of the Redeemer does not exclude but rather gives rise to a manifold cooperation which is but a sharing in this one source.”
  1. This maternity of Mary in the order of grace began with the consent which she gave in faith at the Annunciation and which she sustained without wavering beneath the cross, and lasts until The eternal fulfillment of all the elect. Taken up to heaven she did not lay aside this salvific duty, but by her constant intercession continued to bring us the gifts of eternal salvation. By her maternal charity, she cares for the brethren of her Son, who still journey on earth surrounded by dangers and cultics, until they are led into the happiness of their true home. Therefore the Blessed Virgin is invoked by the Church under the titles of Advocate, Auxiliatrix, Adjutrix, and Mediatrix. This, however, is to be so understood that it neither takes away from nor adds anything to the dignity and efficaciousness of Christ the one Mediator.
For no creature could ever be counted as equal with the Incarnate Word and Redeemer. Just as the priesthood of Christ is shared in various ways both by the ministers and by the faithful, and as the one goodness of God is really communicated in different ways to His creatures, so also the unique mediation of the Redeemer does not exclude but rather gives rise to a manifold cooperation which is but a sharing in this one source.

The Church does not hesitate to profess this subordinate role of Mary. It knows it through unfailing experience of it and commends it to the hearts of the faithful, so that encouraged by this maternal help they may the more intimately adhere to the Mediator and Redeemer. …CCC

The place of Mary is unique in “all” the apostolic church’s and has been from the start. Here is what St Athanasius who defined the human/divine nature of Christ had to say. Who also wrote the Creed which is recited today. Athanasius is counted as one of the four Great Doctors of the Church in the Roman Catholic Church as well as one of the Great Doctors of the Church in Eastern Orthodoxy, where he is also labeled the “Father of Orthodoxy”.

Mary-Mother of Grace

“It becomes you to be mindful of us, as you stand near him who granted you all graces, for you are the Mother of God and our Queen [what does a Queen do?]. Help us for the sake of the King, the Lord God and Master who was born of you. For this reason, you are called full of grace. Remember us, most holy Virgin, and bestow on us gifts from the riches of your graces, Virgin full of graces.” St Athanasius

Why would we want Mary to “Remember Us” because of Her role in the order of Grace as explained by the CCC and as the Saint clearly understood.

Here’s what the Saint said on the Incarnation…No, He [Christ] took our body, and not only so, but He took it directly from a spotless, stainless [Immaculate], virgin, without the agency of human father—a pure body, untainted by intercourse with man. He, the Mighty One, the Artificer of all, Himself prepared this body in the virgin as a temple for Himself, and took it for His very own, as the instrument through which He was known and in which He dwelt. Thus, taking a body like our own, because all our bodies were liable to the corruption of death, He surrendered His body to death instead of all, and offered it to the Father.

There is “nothing new” in the CC history with Mary, there is constant further developed through understanding since we constantly discover or re-discover then clarify what has always been the truth. Mary has been called spotless, stainless which defines “Immaculate” from the authors of Canon which date back to Mark the Evangelist and the Apostle Andrew in the Acts of Andrew while not canon it is historically accurate.

Marys role is unprecedented, nevertheless God is the creator, Mary is a creature of God.

Peace
 
Is it possible that different nationalities have different understandings of Mary, and perhaps slip into “worship” of Mary rather than veneration?
It does remind me of something. Before the Spanish came to the Philippines, one of the native peoples dwelling in the islands, the Tagalogs, believed in one god who is often known as Bathala (also Batala, perhaps from Sanskrit bhaṭṭāra ‘noble lord’; cf. Malay betara). The people respected Bathala and considered him to be the supreme god, but they offered their worship and sacrifice to lesser ‘deities’, ancestral and nature spirits known as the anito or diwata. A 16th century Spanish soldier named Miguel de Loarca once asked the reason for this practice; the answer was that Bathala was such a great god who lived up in the sky that no one could speak to him directly. The anitos and diwatas act as the mediators between man and God, so to speak.

Chapter 11. Which treats of the rites and ceremonies observed by the Moros in the vicinity of Manilla, and of their social conditions

The god Batala.
According to the religion formerly observed by these Moros, they worshiped a deity called among them Batala, which properly means “God.” They said that they adored this Batala because he was the Lord of all, and had created human beings and villages. They said that this Batala had many agents under him, whom he sent to this world to produce, in behalf of men, what is yielded here. These beings were called anitos, and each anito had a special office. Some of them were for the fields, and some for those who journey by sea; some for those who went to war, and some for diseases. Each anito was therefore named for his office; there was, for instance, the anito of the fields, and the anito of the rain. To these anitos the people offered sacrifices, when they desired anything—to each one according to his office. The mode of sacrifice was like that of the Pintados. They summoned a catalonan, which is the same as the vaylan among the Pintados, that is, a priest. He offered the sacrifice, requesting from the anito whatever the people desired him to ask, and heaping up great quantities of rice, meat, and fish. His invocations lasted until the demon entered his body, when the catalonan fell into a swoon, foaming at the mouth. The Indians sang, drank, and feasted until the catalonan came to himself, and told them the answer that the anito had given to him. If the sacrifice was in behalf of a sick person, they offered many golden chains and ornaments, saying that they were paying a ransom for the sick person’s health. This invocation of the anito continued as long as the sickness lasted.

When the natives were asked why the sacrifices were offered to the anito, and not to the Batala, they answered that the Batala was a great lord, and no one could speak to him. He lived in the sky; but the anito, who was of such a nature that he came down here to talk with men, was to the Batala as a minister, and interceded for them. In some places and especially in the mountain districts, when the father, mother, or other relative dies, the people unite in making a small wooden idol, and preserve it. Accordingly there is a house which contains one hundred or two hundred of these idols. These images also are called anitos; for they say that when people die, they go to serve the Batala. Therefore they make sacrifices to these anitos, offering them food, wine, and gold ornaments; and request them to be intercessors for them before the Batala, whom they regard as God.
 
Just as an FYI, there are dozens of threads about whether or not some Catholics take things too far with Mary. From what I can tell, about half believe that things can be taken too far, and half seem not to feel that way. To me that says a great deal on a forum such as this which tends to be strict from a doctrinal standpoint.

forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?t=504804&highlight=marian+devotion+too
forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?t=513699&highlight=marian+devotion+too
forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?t=495741&highlight=marian+devotion+too
forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?t=497907&highlight=marian+devotion+too
forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?t=492753&highlight=marian+devotion+too
forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?t=461499&highlight=marian+devotion+too
forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?t=437279&highlight=marian+devotion+too
forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?t=591179&highlight=marian+devotion+too
forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?t=568148&highlight=marian+devotion+too
forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?t=680833&highlight=marian+devotion+too
forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?t=462463&highlight=marian+devotion+too
forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?t=592881&highlight=marian+devotion+too
forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?t=581494&highlight=marian+devotion+too
forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?t=546380&highlight=marian+devotion+too

I have personally been accused of hating our Blessed Mother on another thread because I refused to believe that the only way to Christ was through Mary and that we cannot get to Heaven except through seeking her intercession.

So yes, it can go too far in my view. I’m not sure that the average Catholic understands what the word “venerate” even means. Whether it crosses over to worship is another question entirely.
 
So yes, it can go too far in my view. I’m not sure that the average Catholic understands what the word “venerate” even means. Whether it crosses over to worship is another question entirely.
I prefer to give the average Catholic more credit. They know more than many of us think.

The average Catholic might not be able to define, compare and contrast the terms veneration and worship, but they know that Jesus is God and Mary is not, and they know that when they die, Mary will escort them to Jesus in front of whom they will stand in judgment. They know that it isn’t the other way around.

The love many have for our Mother and the love many of us have for Christ cannot be quantified into neat little categories, with well defined, razor thin lines between veneration and worship. Anyone who accused you of hating Mary is dead wrong and anyone who accuses me of worshipping Mary is just as wrong. No one can point to me and say when I lapse into worship and when I fall back into veneration because that would require the ability to see into my heart. Only God can do that.

-Tim-
 
The love many have for our Mother and the love many of us have for Christ cannot be quantified into neat little categories, with well defined, razor thin lines between veneration and worship. -Tim-
This brings up a question I have wondered about for a long time that perhaps my Catholic friends can help me with. Obviously in the Bible God never made any distinctions between hyper-dulia and latria. So the question is: How does one know when they have strayed from hyper-dulia into latria?

A similar but different question is: What is the essence of worship? I think it is an important topic because the consequences of getting this wrong are grave (think about how God “burned with anger” towards the Israelites and threatened to “consume them” in Exodus 32 - I am not sure how the CC classifies idolatry, but I think it must surely be a mortal sin).
 
Yes I think it is an issue for two reasons.

First, the fact so many think we do, makes it an issue. We do not do enough to dispell the misconceptions, misunderstandings, and even outright lies so many believe to be true. It paints us all in the wrong color and with the wrong brush. Add to that the precieved ignorance of our OWN Faith, and it definately makes it a legit issue.

Secondly, some DO take veneration too far, and really don’t focus on God enough (in MY opinion). ALL things come from God. Mary can only ask God for us. I think very few of us really understand that.
 
This brings up a question I have wondered about for a long time that perhaps my Catholic friends can help me with. Obviously in the Bible God never made any distinctions between hyper-dulia and latria. So the question is: How does one know when they have strayed from hyper-dulia into latria?

A similar but different question is: What is the essence of worship? I think it is an important topic because the consequences of getting this wrong are grave (think about how God “burned with anger” towards the Israelites and threatened to “consume them” in Exodus 32 - I am not sure how the CC classifies idolatry, but I think it must surely be a mortal sin).
Good question. I look at the sorts of behaviours Catholics are criticized for vis a vis Mary and the Saints - bowing before images, use of exalted language in addressing them, treating them as intercessors etc.

Then I look at the OT and see all of those behaviours done in non-worship contexts. I see Jacob bowing seven times before Esau, I see graven images of cherubs decorating the Ark (before which people would certainly have bowed and prayed), I see Moses setting up the bronze serpent. I see the people of Israel begging him to intercede for them with God after the Golden Calf incident. I see kings of Israel and other places greeted in the most flowery and exalted language. All with no problems.

The one thing I don’t see in any of this, and the one thing I think is the distinction, is that sacrifice is never offered in these situations. Now what does that mean for us? For Christians there is but one sacrifice - the sacrifice of Himself by Christ. As Catholics we participate in that sacrifice in one context and one only - the Mass, where we enter into Calvary.

Anyone who has been to a Mass knows that it is offered wholly and solely to the Father through the Son and in the Spirit. Mary and the other Saints get next to no mention at all in the prayers of the Mass. Certainly none are offered either to or through Mary or any of the other Saints.

To me the latria consists in the offering of the sacrifice. And to me we are careful to offer that latria only to God.
 
I prefer to give the average Catholic more credit. They know more than many of us think.

The average Catholic might not be able to define, compare and contrast the terms veneration and worship, but they know that Jesus is God and Mary is not, and they know that when they die, Mary will escort them to Jesus in front of whom they will stand in judgment. They know that it isn’t the other way around.
Which is why I said that whether or not it crosses over into worship is another matter.
The love many have for our Mother and the love many of us have for Christ cannot be quantified into neat little categories, with well defined, razor thin lines between veneration and worship.
It should be. There is a stark difference and the line is not razor thin, it is a broad chasm by which, if one crosses it, they have chosen the worship of a false god.
 
Thanks for the insight. For the most part I think I would agree. In attempting to find an answer to this question myself, I have typically taken a similar approach by looking to the OT. I think we can all agree that what matters is not what any one person thinks is idolatry, but what God sees as idolatry (since He is the One to whom we will give an account). The prohibition against idolatry is included in the 10 Commandments with these words:
*
You shall not make for yourself a carved image, or any likeness of anything that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth. You shall not bow down to them or serve them, for I the LORD your God am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers on the children to the third and the fourth generation of those who hate me *(Exodus 20:4, 5)

God explicitly states that idolatry includes bowing to images and “serving them.” I think “serving them” could certainly include offering sacrifices up to them, but what about the first part? I mean, from this passage it would certainly seem that bowing to an image is also part of the essence of idolatrous worship (at least in God’s eyes). Am I missing something?
 
Good question. I look at the sorts of behaviours Catholics are criticized for vis a vis Mary and the Saints - bowing before images, use of exalted language in addressing them, treating them as intercessors etc.

Then I look at the OT and see all of those behaviours done in non-worship contexts. I see Jacob bowing seven times before Esau, I see graven images of cherubs decorating the Ark (before which people would certainly have bowed and prayed), I see Moses setting up the bronze serpent. I see the people of Israel begging him to intercede for them with God after the Golden Calf incident. I see kings of Israel and other places greeted in the most flowery and exalted language. All with no problems.

The one thing I don’t see in any of this, and the one thing I think is the distinction, is that sacrifice is never offered in these situations. Now what does that mean for us? For Christians there is but one sacrifice - the sacrifice of Himself by Christ. As Catholics we participate in that sacrifice in one context and one only - the Mass, where we enter into Calvary.

Anyone who has been to a Mass knows that it is offered wholly and solely to the Father through the Son and in the Spirit. Mary and the other Saints get next to no mention at all in the prayers of the Mass. Certainly none are offered either to or through Mary or any of the other Saints.

To me the latria consists in the offering of the sacrifice. And to me we are careful to offer that latria only to God.
Great Answer Lily…👍👍
 
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