Is Worship of the Virgin Mary a Legitimate issue?

[LilyM]

Thanks for the insight. For the most part I think I would agree. In attempting to find an answer to this question myself, I have typically taken a similar approach by looking to the OT. I think we can all agree that what matters is not what any one person thinks is idolatry, but what God sees as idolatry (since He is the One to whom we will give an account). The prohibition against idolatry is included in the 10 Commandments with these words:
*
You shall not make for yourself a carved image, or any likeness of anything that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth. You shall not bow down to them or serve them, for I the LORD your God am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers on the children to the third and the fourth generation of those who hate me *(Exodus 20:4, 5)

God explicitly states that idolatry includes bowing to images and “serving them.” I think “serving them” could certainly include offering sacrifices up to them, but what about the first part? I mean, from this passage it would certainly seem that bowing to an image is also part of the essence of idolatrous worship (at least in God’s eyes). Am I missing something?

As I said, people undoubtedly bowed before the graven cherubs on the Ark - yet this was not worship. And strictly speaking doesn’t it say we are not even to MAKE images? So much for any statues or photographs or even films, of any living being whatsoever! So much even for those coins Jesus looked at, which had images of the deified Roman Emperors on them.

And I should think bowing before the living King Nebuchadnezzar could be just as idolatrous and just as much against the Commandment as bowing before his statue, no?

But I’m equally sure plenty of people bowed before him merely as a sign of respect (like Jacob before Esau) without it being worship, and did not offend God or break the Commandment by doing so any more than Jacob did. So in the same way one can bow before an image in a way that is not worship. Which is not say that it cannot possibly ever constitute idolatry.

To me it’s like ‘thou shalt not kill’. Obviously one CAN kill in self defence, one can kill one’s country’s enemies in war, one can kill animals for food. What it really means is ‘thou shalt not murder (ie kill wrongfully)’. So ‘thou shalt not now before graven images’ means ‘thou shalt not take the images nor the subjects of them to be divine, nor treat them as if they were.’ neither bowing nor praying are reserved exclusively to God - the people of Israel were doing no more than we when they asked Moses to intercede for them.

 

[JRKH]

Thanks for the insight. For the most part I think I would agree. In attempting to find an answer to this question myself, I have typically taken a similar approach by looking to the OT. I think we can all agree that what matters is not what any one person thinks is idolatry, but what God sees as idolatry (since He is the One to whom we will give an account). The prohibition against idolatry is included in the 10 Commandments with these words:
*
You shall not make for yourself a carved image, or any likeness of anything that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth. You shall not bow down to them or serve them, for I the LORD your God am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers on the children to the third and the fourth generation of those who hate me *(Exodus 20:4, 5)

God explicitly states that idolatry includes bowing to images and “serving them.” I think “serving them” could certainly include offering sacrifices up to them, but what about the first part? I mean, from this passage it would certainly seem that bowing to an image is also part of the essence of idolatrous worship (at least in God’s eyes). Am I missing something?

This answer is not “Apologetic” in nature but rather my particular view.

The OT Commandments is very important but it needs to be kept in proper perspective to the New Covenant. In Mt 22:36-40 Jesus is asked what is the Greatest commandment…
37 And He said to him, " You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart, and with all your soul, and with all your mind.' 38 "This is the great and foremost commandment. 39 "The second is like it, You shall love your neighbor as yourself.’ 40 “On these two commandments depend the whole Law and the Prophets.”
At the very core of this is not an action but a focus, a feeling, a commitment. the Prohibition is against replacing God with something else in our heart of hearts.
Paul, in 1 Cor 10:23, says, “all things are lawful but not all things build up”…again it gets to the core of what is real and in the heart rather than an act that is separate from the heart.

If a person gives to Mary that Love which belongs to God alone…then, whether they bowed to a statue or not, THAT would be idolatry. On the other hand if they give to Mary a Christian Love - the same as we give to each other - out of our Love for God…Then there is no idolatry whether they bow before a statue or not…

Don’t know if i’ve explained that well…but I hope it helps.

Peace
James

 

[Mintaka]

The more we push Mary into the shadows and worry about her, the more people are going to have problems with denigrating her or turning her into a little tin goddess (as many ex-Catholic Wiccans try to do).

The more we have open, healthy Marian devotion, in church, in public, and in homes, the less people will feel pushed to take a crazy stance one way or another. Also, if they hear the facts about Mary repeated over and over, they’ll be less likely to come out with silly, misleading statements in discussions (or in their own brains).

And since Mary’s special position is theological protection against people considering Jesus to be all God and no human, or only a very special human and not God, we really need to keep her well forward, just for our own sake.

 

[LilyM]

This answer is not “Apologetic” in nature but rather my particular view.

The OT Commandments is very important but it needs to be kept in proper perspective to the New Covenant. In Mt 22:36-40 Jesus is asked what is the Greatest commandment…
37 And He said to him, " You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart, and with all your soul, and with all your mind.' 38 "This is the great and foremost commandment. 39 "The second is like it, You shall love your neighbor as yourself.’ 40 “On these two commandments depend the whole Law and the Prophets.”
At the very core of this is not an action but a focus, a feeling, a commitment. the Prohibition is against replacing God with something else in our heart of hearts.
Paul, in 1 Cor 10:23, says, “all things are lawful but not all things build up”…again it gets to the core of what is real and in the heart rather than an act that is separate from the heart.

If a person gives to Mary that Love which belongs to God alone…then, whether they bowed to a statue or not, THAT would be idolatry. On the other hand if they give to Mary a Christian Love - the same as we give to each other - out of our Love for God…Then there is no idolatry whether they bow before a statue or not…

Don’t know if i’ve explained that well…but I hope it helps.

Peace
James

I think you did very well

 

[TimothyH]

This brings up a question I have wondered about for a long time that perhaps my Catholic friends can help me with. Obviously in the Bible God never made any distinctions between hyper-dulia and latria. So the question is: How does one know when they have strayed from hyper-dulia into latria?

A similar but different question is: What is the essence of worship? I think it is an important topic because the consequences of getting this wrong are grave (think about how God “burned with anger” towards the Israelites and threatened to “consume them” in Exodus 32 - I am not sure how the CC classifies idolatry, but I think it must surely be a mortal sin).

I answered in my post.

We know that the Father is God, Jesus is God and the Holy Spirit is God, and that Mary is not. All Mary is, everthing she has been granted, and all authority delegated to her comes from God. Apart from God, she and I and you are nothing.

We can argue about what Mary has been granted, what authority has been delegated and what her role in salvation is, but we know that it comes from God.

Only God can see into the heart.

-Tim-

 

[TimothyH]

Which is why I said that whether or not it crosses over into worship is another matter.

It should be. There is a stark difference and the line is not razor thin, it is a broad chasm by which, if one crosses it, they have chosen the worship of a false god.

Mary is closer to God than any of us will ever be. She is infinitely closer to God than you and I.

-Tim-

 

[JM3]

If the answer to the question “Do we worship anything else but God?” Is anything else but “no,” then I’m out…

vatican.va/holy_father/pius_xii/encyclicals/documents/hf_p-xii_enc_20111947_mediator-dei_en.html

1. Among the saints in heaven the Virgin Mary Mother of God is venerated in a special way. Because of the mission she received from God, her life is most closely linked with the mysteries of Jesus Christ, and there is no one who has followed in the footsteps of the Incarnate Word more closely and with more merit than she: and no one has more grace and power over the most Sacred Heart of the Son of God and through Him with the Heavenly Father. Holier than the Cherubim and Seraphim, she enjoys unquestionably greater glory than all the other saints, for she is “full of grace,”[157] she is the Mother of God, who happily gave birth to the Redeemer for us. Since she is therefore, “Mother of mercy, our life, our sweetness and our hope,” let us all cry to her “mourning and weeping in this vale of tears,”[158] and confidently place ourselves and all we have under her patronage. She became our Mother also when the divine Redeemer offered the sacrifice of Himself; and hence by this title also, we are her children. She teaches us all the virtues; she gives us her Son and with Him all the help we need, for God “wished us to have everything through Mary.”[159]

vatican.va/holy_father/pius_xii/apost_constitutions/documents/hf_p-xii_apc_19501101_munificentissimus-deus_en.html

1. Actually God, who from all eternity regards Mary with a most favorable and unique affection,

papalencyclicals.net/Pius09/p9ineff.htm

Let all the children of the Catholic Church, who are so very dear to us, hear these words of ours. With a still more ardent zeal for piety, religion and love, let them continue to venerate, invoke and pray to the most Blessed Virgin Mary, Mother of God, conceived without original sin. Let them fly with utter confidence to this most sweet Mother of mercy and grace in all dangers, difficulties, needs, doubts and fears. Under her guidance, under her patronage, under her kindness and protection, nothing is to be feared; nothing is hopeless. Because, while bearing toward us a truly motherly affection and having in her care the work of our salvation, she is solicitous about the whole human race. And since she has been appointed by God to be the Queen of heaven and earth, and is exalted above all the choirs of angels and saints, and even stands at the right hand of her only-begotten Son, Jesus Christ our Lord, she presents our petitions in a most efficacious manner. What she asks, she obtains. Her pleas can never be unheard.

 

[R_C]

So the question is: How does one know when they have strayed from hyper-dulia into latria?

I will be a bit blunt, but I am sure my beloved heavenly mom understands what I mean.

Veneration (or hyper-veneration) is for saints. Saints are creatures.
Worship (latria) is for God. God is Creator.

I think we have strayed the moment we forget that creature = utter nothingness.

A creature in itself is truly worth nothing.

All glory comes from God and goes back to God.

The Blessed Virgin is the greatest of all creatures because she received the greatest glory from God, and that glory is so strictly related to Christ that we can almost argue that it is truly Christ’s glory she is partaking.

But, in the end, she is still a creature.

 

[Solus_Christus]

Thanks LilyM and JRKH. Your responses were helpful.

Clearly, you are right, the prohibition was not against the making of images, per se, since God also instructed the making of the serpent in the wilderness and the cherubim on the Ark of the Covenant. Also, bowing down to others as a form of respect is not spoken of negatively when, for example, the dream God gave to Joseph was fulfilled and his brothers bowed before him in Egypt or when Jacob met Esau upon his return home (Genesis 33).

Whether the Isrealites bowed to the cheribum on the Ark of the Covenant, however, seems like pure conjecture. I guess I personally would prefer to see an example of bowing before an image mentioned in a positive (or even neutral) light in Scripture. Whatever the case, I know there is a lot of frustration/consternation in these forums about how Protestants misunderstand or misrepresent Catholic teaching on this matter. Hopefully the reason for this insistance on the part of Protestants is at least understandable to Catholics (i.e. since an explicit prohibition by God is, by all appearances, contradicted by Catholic teaching and actions). Typically the discussion rarely gets down to these deeper subjects, such as the nature of true worship. Until it does, the confusion in my opinion will persist.

It has been suggested that what is ultimately important in determining the substance of true worship is whether, while bowing to an image, true worship (latria) is intended in the heart. While I think there is some merit to this, I am not fully convinced. Take, for instance, Shadrach, Meshach, and Abednego. It seems it could have been a simple matter for them to comply with King Nebuchadnezzar’s command outwardly while refusing to worship inwardly. This was a life or death matter for them, so it seems like such an option would have occurred to them. Likewise James, in his epistle, argues that our faith is made manifest by our actions. The typical Hindu will look at a Catholic bowing to a statue of Mary and conclude that the two faiths are essentially the same just as a Protestant observes the scene and concludes it is idolatry.

 

[R_C]

Hopefully the reason for this insistance on the part of Protestants is at least understandable to Catholics (i.e. since an explicit prohibition by God is, by all appearances, contradicted by Catholic teaching and actions).

No, it is not understandable. I cannot understand, in fact, how can there be such perseverance on such an evident error.

God did not explicitly prohibit something only to later command others to break his prohibition. The Ark and the serpent should suffice.

And by the way, the issue is not so much in the “visible” gestures (which is also something judgmental and weak, since only intentions truly matter, and only God knows intentions). I think that we find a double denial outside of the Church:

• by denial of the Sacrament of Holy Orders (bishop, priest, deacon) and of the difference between ministerial and common priesthood, the hierarchy between the living is abolished;
• by denial of the Communion of Saints, the hierarchy between the Church Militant (us), the Church Penitent (the holy souls in purgatory, on their way to heaven) and the Church Triumphant (those in heaven, face to face with God) is abolished;

Without these basic truths, these basic facts of the Kingdom of God, how can we expect someone to understand why we ask so much for the intercession of the mother of our Lord? If I am in such great error, I may as well believe that my prayer, the prayer of a worthless sinner, is worth as much as the prayer of She who held baby Jesus in her arms, or of the apostles and disciples who experienced a life of sorrows often crowned with martyrdom in order to preach the Gospel.

All we have been doing is holding on to the Sacred Tradition and to the Sacred Scripture. We do not have to “understand” those who have rejected parts of both…all we can offer is that we are always there for them, preserving the deposit of the word of God for all.

 

[jwinch2]

Mary is closer to God than any of us will ever be. She is infinitely closer to God than you and I.

-Tim-

I don’t disagree with any of that.

However, that does not change the fact that God is still infinitely beyond Mary as well. As such, I must respectfully disagree with the suggestion that there are not lines which should be drawn. They absolutely should. In addition, as I already noted, those lines are hardly razor thin. Rather, they are clear and broad and we cross them at our peril.

 

[Solus_Christus]

And by the way, the issue is not so much in the “visible” gestures (which is also something judgmental and weak, since only intentions truly matter, and only God knows intentions).

I absolutely agree that motive matters to God. However, that is not His only concern. He is also concerned with obedience. One could argue that God is even more concerned with obedience than motive. Case in point is the story of Uzzah who reached out his hand and touched the Ark to prevent it from falling. As a result he was immediately struck dead by God (2 Samuel 6). The intention of Uzzah (i.e. to keep the Ark from falling to the ground) was admirable. However, since God had expressly commanded that no one should touch the Ark, Uzzah was punished (and severely at that).

All we have been doing is holding on to the Sacred Tradition and to the Sacred Scripture. We do not have to “understand” those who have rejected parts of both…all we can offer is that we are always there for them, preserving the deposit of the word of God for all.

I am merely offering something that may be helpful for Catholics who desire to understand the Protestant position. Not everyone is interested, and that is fine. But in order to understand the position of someone else you have to put yourself in their shoes.

 

[TimothyH]

I don’t disagree with any of that.

However, that does not change the fact that God is still infinitely beyond Mary as well. As such, I must respectfully disagree with the suggestion that there are not lines which should be drawn. They absolutely should. In addition, as I already noted, those lines are hardly razor thin. Rather, they are clear and broad and we cross them at our peril.

I’ll draw near to my mother, my empress and my queen. I won’t shy away from the Queen of Heaven and Earth. That’s what I’ll do.

-Tim-

 

[jwinch2]

I’ll draw near to my mother, my empress and my queen. I won’t shy away from the Queen of Heaven and Earth. That’s what I’ll do.

-Tim-

You are of course, free to do as you like.

If you would, please answer me this one question. As you are correct in noting, Mary is infinitely closer to God than we are. I do not dispute that. However, is God not still infinitely beyond Mary?

 

[Sky_Pilot]

… Mary is a creature and we owe her hyper dulia - extra veneration, we owe the saints dulia - veneration but to God alone we owe latria - worship.
QUOTE]
Aha! Now I have learned something! (More like the light bulb just came on … duh!)
Consider this:
We have one word for snow.
The Eskimo have either 11 or 17.
We have one word for love.
If we wish to describe snow or love, we must use modifiers and adjectives and even then our intent may not be entirely clear.
We have the word “worship.”
The word means “respect.”
We see this in the title “Worshipful” – I forget where I saw it used, perhaps to describe an ecclesiastic or maybe a judge – and I was curious: do we worship that old guy they’re talking about?
I looked it up.
The word is olde English and means “respectable” or “worthy of respect.”
When we say “worship” the word begs to have modifiers, adjectives, clarification.
We already have the clear status, as Yinekka pointed out:
Hyper dulia.
Dulia.
Latria.

 

[R_C]

@Solus Christus
There is one thing that I have learned after arguing with atheists and agnostics, that is, we cannot just take the Scriptures literally, or we will be crushed by their masterful cherry-picking of awkward moments like that one.

We ought to understand the deeper meaning, the profound message. I do not believe that God took the life of Uzzah for wanting to keep the Ark from falling. This is too simplistic an argument - and indeed it made even King David angry.

I also participated once in a brief discussion on how could the Roman emperor Pompey enter the Sancta Sanctorum and survive. I think 99.9% of atheists would agree on the answer: “because there is no God, otherwise, as we well know from the Scriptures, God would have struck Pompey to death for his irreverent act”.

Obedience, indeed, to the least command. But Christ did make it rather clear to the teachers of the Law that their blind obedience had made them blind to the will of God, and that the Divine Law was much greater, wiser, and merciful than the Law of Moses. Obedience, indeed, but rooted in love, charity, and wisdom. Otherwise we may be “stoning a woman” all the while thinking we are doing God’s will, when instead God’s thoughts are way different from our thoughts.

I do not have anything specifically against any follower of a protestant doctrine, my concern is with the doctrines themselves and how they mislead good-faith followers. It does seem to me, from experience, that people who read the Sacred Scriptures rejecting the teaching authority of the Church read it in one same way, regardless of whether they believe in God or not

 

[JRKH]

Thanks LilyM and JRKH. Your responses were helpful.

Clearly, you are right, the prohibition was not against the making of images, per se, since God also instructed the making of the serpent in the wilderness and the cherubim on the Ark of the Covenant. Also, bowing down to others as a form of respect is not spoken of negatively when, for example, the dream God gave to Joseph was fulfilled and his brothers bowed before him in Egypt or when Jacob met Esau upon his return home (Genesis 33).

Whether the Isrealites bowed to the cheribum on the Ark of the Covenant, however, seems like pure conjecture. I guess I personally would prefer to see an example of bowing before an image mentioned in a positive (or even neutral) light in Scripture. Whatever the case, I know there is a lot of frustration/consternation in these forums about how Protestants misunderstand or misrepresent Catholic teaching on this matter. Hopefully the reason for this insistance on the part of Protestants is at least understandable to Catholics (i.e. since an explicit prohibition by God is, by all appearances, contradicted by Catholic teaching and actions). Typically the discussion rarely gets down to these deeper subjects, such as the nature of true worship. Until it does, the confusion in my opinion will persist.

It has been suggested that what is ultimately important in determining the substance of true worship is whether, while bowing to an image, true worship (latria) is intended in the heart. While I think there is some merit to this, I am not fully convinced. Take, for instance, Shadrach, Meshach, and Abednego. It seems it could have been a simple matter for them to comply with King Nebuchadnezzar’s command outwardly while refusing to worship inwardly. This was a life or death matter for them, so it seems like such an option would have occurred to them. Likewise James, in his epistle, argues that our faith is made manifest by our actions. The typical Hindu will look at a Catholic bowing to a statue of Mary and conclude that the two faiths are essentially the same just as a Protestant observes the scene and concludes it is idolatry.

I think you bring up some very good points. I will simply reiterate my earlier reference to Paul…That all things are lawful but all things do not build up (The Kingdom of God).
I believe one of the great things about the Church is that, while she has no prohibition on statues or bowing and such, neither does she have a requirement.
If I choose to stroll by a statue of Mary without even a recognition of it’s existence, no one bats an eye. It is, after all, only a statue. Likewise, while the Church allows, and even encourages, prayer to the saints, she does not require it.

And perhaps this is the key to your reference to Shadrach, Meshach, and Abednego. In this case, the King was trying to require them to act…

As to what others think when they see something…I’m not sure we can really do much about that. but do please tell all of your friends that they are more than welcome to ask, respectfully, about it.

Peace
James

 

[GaryTaylor]

However, is God not still infinitely beyond Mary?

I don’t even see where that could be disputed from a finite/infinite perspective.

 

[jwinch2]

I don’t even see where that could be disputed from a finite/infinite perspective.

Well, earlier the argument was made that Mary is infinitely closer to God then we are.

God is obviously infinitely beyond us in every way possible. We are created beings, in God’s likeness yes, but created nonetheless. Without us, God is still God and perfect in every possible way. Without God, we are nothing and would never even existed.

My question then is whether Mary, even in her exalted state, is still infinitely inferior to God in every way possible.

 

[1_with_God]

Holy Mary, Mother of God, pray for us sinners …

We do not ask God to pray for us…have mercy

We do not ask Jesus to pray for us…have mercy

We ask Mary for her intercession…

Why is this so complicated?

The devil plants a seed in our small finite brains and like the sinners we are we run with it…

Lord have mercy on us all.