C
- Status
C
chippy2011
Guest
Good day to all of you guys,
After almost 2 years visiting CAF once in a while I decided to sign in when I read this thread. Great discussion and very enlightening.
To answer the OP’s question, yes, and for many of the reasons already stated by previous posters which I wont repeat. Even Fr. John Hardon, in his book Catholic Catechism uses the word worship in its simplest meaning- that of merely conferring honor to someone. In that context then, he distinguishes between worship of veneration offered to creatures, and absolute worship of adoration offered to no one else but God alone.
Just to avoid confusion, I would avoid “worship” in that context in my (as yet theoretical) discussion with evangelical friends regarding this subject.
As regards asking for our Lady’s intercession, here is my simple belief. She and all the saints in heaven, can NEVER ask God anything contrary to His will. A disordered will no longer exist in God’s creatures in heaven. So whatever I ask of the Blessed Virgin, I am confident that whatever her answer is, however she petitions God for it, all are in accord with the will and pleasure of God.
After almost 2 years visiting CAF once in a while I decided to sign in when I read this thread. Great discussion and very enlightening.
To answer the OP’s question, yes, and for many of the reasons already stated by previous posters which I wont repeat. Even Fr. John Hardon, in his book Catholic Catechism uses the word worship in its simplest meaning- that of merely conferring honor to someone. In that context then, he distinguishes between worship of veneration offered to creatures, and absolute worship of adoration offered to no one else but God alone.
Just to avoid confusion, I would avoid “worship” in that context in my (as yet theoretical) discussion with evangelical friends regarding this subject.
As regards asking for our Lady’s intercession, here is my simple belief. She and all the saints in heaven, can NEVER ask God anything contrary to His will. A disordered will no longer exist in God’s creatures in heaven. So whatever I ask of the Blessed Virgin, I am confident that whatever her answer is, however she petitions God for it, all are in accord with the will and pleasure of God.
J
jwinch2
Guest
I agree with this explanation completely.
M
mymamamary
Guest
I find it sad that Catholics could even think of worshipping Our Lady. I also find it sad when Catholics advocate the almost opposite extreme. I love My Heavenly Mother and will choose to fly and grab Her the edge of Her mantle. For it is under that heavenly mantle, that I am hidden from Satan, and also by taking refuge in the SACRED HEART.
I also see nothing wrong with perhaps the “5th Doctrine”. Our Lady was a co-redemptrix. Of course, not nearly to the degree that Our LORD was. Only Our LORDS MOST PRECIOUS BLOOD can fully atone for our sins. However, by Her “YES” at the incarantion, She became the vessel for Our LORD. She endured the worst form of martyrdom ever. Other martyrs died. Her pain continued for three days after. Before anyone comments on the Fifth Doctrine, I ask you to take a look at the PASSION of the CHRIST, the Last scene were Our Lady holds Our LORD, Or take a look at the Pieta. I DARE YOU to say anything. How can anyone have the heart to deny such a thing?? A mother, Holding the Body of what was once Her Only SON. Not only that, but the SON is DIVINE.
How thankful am I for a Mother like Mary. I LOVE YOU MAMMA!!!
I also see nothing wrong with perhaps the “5th Doctrine”. Our Lady was a co-redemptrix. Of course, not nearly to the degree that Our LORD was. Only Our LORDS MOST PRECIOUS BLOOD can fully atone for our sins. However, by Her “YES” at the incarantion, She became the vessel for Our LORD. She endured the worst form of martyrdom ever. Other martyrs died. Her pain continued for three days after. Before anyone comments on the Fifth Doctrine, I ask you to take a look at the PASSION of the CHRIST, the Last scene were Our Lady holds Our LORD, Or take a look at the Pieta. I DARE YOU to say anything. How can anyone have the heart to deny such a thing?? A mother, Holding the Body of what was once Her Only SON. Not only that, but the SON is DIVINE.
How thankful am I for a Mother like Mary. I LOVE YOU MAMMA!!!
J
JM3
Guest
Catechism of the Catholic Church
Faith
2087 Our moral life has its source in faith in God who reveals his love to us. St. Paul speaks of the "obedience of faith"9 as our first obligation. He shows that “ignorance of God” is the principle and explanation of all moral deviations.10 Our duty toward God is to believe in him and to bear witness to him.
2088 The first commandment requires us to nourish and protect our faith with prudence and vigilance, and to reject everything that is opposed to it. There are various ways of sinning against faith:
Voluntary doubt about the faith disregards or refuses to hold as true what God has revealed and the Church proposes for belief. Involuntary doubt refers to hesitation in believing, difficulty in overcoming objections connected with the faith, or also anxiety aroused by its obscurity. If deliberately cultivated doubt can lead to spiritual blindness.
2089 Incredulity is the neglect of revealed truth or the willful refusal to assent to it. "Heresy is the obstinate post-baptismal denial of some truth which must be believed with divine and catholic faith, or it is likewise an obstinate doubt concerning the same; apostasy is the total repudiation of the Christian faith; schism is the refusal of submission to the Roman Pontiff or of communion with the members of the Church subject to him."11
J
JM3
Guest
“co” means with, not (name removed by moderator)lace of or equal to.
L
LilyM
Guest
Eg a co-author who might write only one or two chapters worth of material out of a huge book.
Paul calls all of us co-labourers with God (obviously in the only ‘labour’ that truly matters, that of salvation) and even co-heirs with Christ.
Back to the bowing to Nebuchadnezzar thing - the difference would be that
a) Neb actually demanded and decreed to be worshipped as a god, and so the bowing coulnobel even interiorly be rationalized away as anything but, and
b) the worshippers were saving their skins at the expense of denying their God (which Christians who venerate Mary and the Saints never do).
C
CatholicofAgora
Guest
So how is committing idolatry obedience to the faith that God has given to us? How can you say that the love and worship we should set aside for God should be also equally applied to a created being? It doesn’t matter how sinless or how perfect that being may be, because they are only a created being, and are therefore not worthy of worship. Any goodness they have has originally proceeded from God. Jesus said “apart from me you can do nothing.” Mary did not say “yes” to God out of her own goodness, she did it from the grace that God has filled her with. It is blasphemy to worship the Virgin Mary. My own mother is exceedingly glad to know that I love God more than her. How much more glad would Mary be?
J
JM3
Guest
Careful, your baptist is showing.
Wor·ship - noun
1 chiefly British: a person of importance —used as a title for various officials (as magistrates and some mayors)
2 reverence offered a divine being or supernatural power; also: an act of expressing such reverence
3 a form of religious practice with its creed and ritual
4 extravagant respect or admiration for or devotion to an object of esteem
worship - transitive verb
1 to honor or reverence as a divine being or supernatural power
2 to regard with great or extravagant respect, honor, or devotion
Your narrow use of worship is a protestant error.
Denial of freewill is also a protestant error. God did not make Mary say yes to Him. It was her freewill choice.
You still have an iron grip on your protestantism and this will hinder your Catholic faith. I pray you will open your heart to what the Catholic Church teaches.
G
GaryTaylor
Guest
1 Peter 3:22 “He who has been escorted into Heaven, and he is upon the right hand of God, and the Angels and the Principalities and the Powers are subjected unto him.”
I don’t believe there should reside any confusion here. Creator/Creature imho is basic Catholic teaching. I agree this a broad well defined line. I’m facinated this idea would be entertained in the RCIA. I would think this would present a fustration level in the depth of all the teachings in this realm which as we see extend past St Louis de Montfort. I don’t see how this is conducive to correct understandling-learning at a RCIA level in particular understanding the awe of Christ.
Mary and the Saints are lights on the path of salvation which could only echo GOD. Their message is Christ, their goal is to bring Souls to Christ. Their representation in Icons or Statues are reminders of God, and to see God through them if need be. in essense to let them help as they so obviously have done in the physical realm. Their reality increased and continued and should be acknowledged but in perspective to the Almighty God.
The question of does one need to partake in an individual basis, strickly speaking the answer is no. The bigger question here imho is the struggle one has encountered or is on their daily path to Christ/Salvation. When this becomes an all out battle for the individual, then help and correct help would be the logical choice, and I would imagine well received. Based on the law of prayer and belief we then follow the lights given on this stairway/path. Course Christ/Church/Sacraments are a priority in such a situation.
Seems the real issue here in not so much where Mary or the Saints reside in the Celestial Court of Communion of Saint, but if in fact they do reside and actually do interceed by Gods will. I see more of a dilemma here though not with you or I or with Catholic’s but in general.
The mixed thinking with Icons/Statues defined reverence, veneration seems to me like a very old debate in Catholicism/Orthodoxy. Truth is God has continued to place steps in the ladder to him from OT to NT. If we ignore them so too we do this at our own risk, especially in times of conflict and turmoil. The Lord doesn’t send Saints for any other reason but to guide the lost sheep.
When we speak of closness to God. Perhaps another view would help. Lucifer is a perfect example. How much power does evil have? One might say well it seems a whole lot. But this too is contingent on Gods will.
Peace Jason, I think your advice is sound here, CCC-Deposit of Faith and understanding the main objective crystal clear.
T
TimothyH
Guest
Mary is not optional.
God had a perfect plan for our salvation and it included Mary. If there was a better, more beautiful plan then God would have given it to us. God’s perfect plan includes the Eucharist, the sacraments, the Church, prayer, the communion of saints, suffering, worship and Mary. None of these are optional. To say that you can worship God and ignore Mary is to say that you can worship God and not pray or that you can worship God and ignore the Church. God had limitless possibilities.
For I know the plans I have for you, says the LORD, plans for welfare and not for evil, to give you a future and a hope. (Jerimiah 29:2)
If there were a better and more beautiful plan then God would have given it to us, and his plan includes all these things, and it includes Mary. None of these things - prayer or Church or the sacraments are optional. Mary is not optional.
-Tim-
A
ahs
Guest
How is giving one one’s due respect considered idolatry? Does the word “worship” have one singular and ultimate meaning? The definiiton has been provided above, but I suggest you look it up as well so you can see how many different definitions are involved in “worship”.
One cannot say that, nor has one said that. The love and worship set a side for God is for God alone. You are confusing “latria” and “dulia” and “hyperdulia”.
Define “worship”. If your definition of “worship” involves only that due honor and adoration we give to God alone…then no, we do not “worship” Mary…because such is for God alone. You do not seem to understand the broad definition of “worship”.
Mary freely chose to say “yes”…in direct contradiction to Eve’s free choice in saying “no” (disobeying…eating the forbidden fruit).
And again, define “worship”. You have confused “dulia” or “hyperdulia” for “latria”.
J
jwinch2
Guest
Thanks Gary, for your detailed thoughts on the matter.
First, let me state for what is probably the thousandth time that I love our Blessed Mother very much, and ask her for her intercession on a regular basis. There is rarely, very rarely, a day which goes by which I do not seek her assistance.
Now, let me see if I can boil down my concerns to a level which is easily understandable:
I have major concerns when I see or hear something which states that we can only go to Christ through Mary, or any saint for that matter. I have concerns when I see or hear something which states that there are no discernible lines between veneration and worship or that one can never take devotion to our Blessed Mother too far. I have concerns when I see people trying to define titles such as co-redemptrix and mediatrix, that the Church herself does not define. I have concerns when I see things presented as if they are dogma, when they are not.
There are four, and only four, Marian dogmas: catholicnewsagency.com/resources/mary/general-information/the-four-marian-dogmas/
If Mary is infinitely inferior to God, as would it seem, then there should be a significant and noticeable difference in how our veneration to her and our worship to God manifests itself. If the two are similar, it would not be reflective of that infinite difference.
J
jwinch2
Guest
The Church teaches that Mary still had free will, even though she was created without sin and was full of grace. So, given that she had free will, what if she had fallen to temptation the way that the first Eve did and chosen a path different from God’s? Would God have not found a way to bring about our salvation? Are not all of God’s plans perfect, even the ones where we have failed to cooperate?
J
JM3
Guest
Have you read the Apostolic Constitution MUNIFICENTISSIMUS DEUS?
If not, then you should.
vatican.va/holy_father/pius_xii/apost_constitutions/documents/hf_p-xii_apc_19501101_munificentissimus-deus_en.html
Also, the Apostolic Constitution Ineffabilis Deus.
papalencyclicals.net/Pius09/p9ineff.htm
J
JRKH
Guest
This is where these kinds of threads start to trouble me…Tim - you seem to have read something into “CatholicofAgora’s” post that he did not write. I see nothing in that post indicating that Mary is optional. So why introduce this idea?
The question before the board is not whether Mary is optional.
Yes God provided us with a beautiful plan o salvation that includes many wonderful gifts - each in it’s proper place and order. This includes our Blessed Mother. However, if we get these gifts out of order or apply them improperly or, as Paul says, receive them unworthily, then we can run into trouble.
So - the matter under discussion is the proper order of veneration and devotion shown our Blessed Lady, not whether she is a necessary part of our faith.
Peace
James
J
JRKH
Guest
T
TimothyH
Guest
The comment was that how special Mary is or that her importance does not matter. Very few statements could be further from the truth.
Terms such as co-redemtrix and mediatrix are well defined by the Church. We are all co-redeemers insofar as we suffer for Christ. Mary suffered more than all of us. It is not really all that difficult of a definition to understand.
-Tim-
T
TimothyH
Guest
*By the will of God this mother began to stand vigil over [advigilare] the Church and nurture us as His aide [administra] in effecting [patrandi] the sacrament of Redemption of mankind, dispensing [pariter administra] the graces that derive from our Redemption for all time with an almost boundless power granted her. Most appropriately, therefore, all peoples and cultures have lavished public praises upon her, which have escalated throughout the ages, among many of which we might mention: Our Lady (Domina), our mediatrix (mediatrix), the restorer (reparatrix) of the whole world, and the conciliatrix (conciliatrix) of the gifts of God.
- Pope Leo XII, Adiutricem populi, September 5, 1898*
- Status