Is Worship of the Virgin Mary a Legitimate issue?

[TimothyH]

*We do not deny that the distribution of these gifts belongs to Christ by His own personal right, since they were obtained for us by the death of Christ alone, and through His power He is the mediator between God and man. Yet, as we have said, by Mary’s communion with her Son in pain and sorrow it was granted to the august Virgin “to be, along with her only-begotten Son, the most powerful mediatrix and conciliatrix [mediatrix et conciliatrix] of the whole world”.

• Pope Pius X, Ad diem illum, February 2, 1904*

-Tim-

 

[TimothyH]

etcetera.

-Tim-

 

[JRKH]

The comment was that how special Mary is or that her importance does not matter. Very few statements could be further from the truth.

Yes - but how does that statement = Mary is optional…Which is what your response objected to.

It just seems to me that you pulled something from that statement that was not intended.
Try a little exercise with me…Consider the possible inflections that one might use in conversation when one is frustrated as they try to make the point that, regardless of the Importance of Mary…We only worship God.
I don’t know if I can put the emphasis I “hear” down on paper but I’ll try…Remember this is in a rather frustrated frame of mind after arguing for a bit…

It doesn’t matter who Mary is or how she is. We worship only God. That is a basic Christian tenet.

It’s so hard to get the right tenor just in writing…

Peace
James

 

[HeatherJK]

I am a baptized Christian seeking unity in the Catholic Church the one true and apostolic church of Christ! I am currently attending RCIA to obtain this unity, christian ecumenism, so that I may praise and glorify the Father, Son, and Holy spirit in the church that was built upon his “rock”, St. Peter which still holds the same teachings and traditions as the first apostles (disciples) of Jesus Christ.

My husband was raised Catholic, and I Protestant (Baptist to be exact) but as I grew in maturity of faith I realized that my preconceived notions of Catholicism and of what my faith of “sola scripture” really was. (Just 2 biblical example for our Protestant Christian Bothers & Sisters: “Therefore breathern, stand fast, and hold the tradition which ye were taught, weather by word, or our epistle.” 2 Thessalonians 2:15, and “Jesus did many other things as well. If every one of them were written down, I suppose that even the whole world would not have room for the books that would be written.” John 21:25) This was a process that took several years, as the holy spirit slowly opened my eyes to see the truth. I was seeking wisdom and grace from GOD, and like a baby being nursed from infancy I was slowly feed truth (his grace) so that I may understand and recognize error (wisdom). I still have a love of my previous church, it was where I accepted Jesus’s salvific and divine nature, loved the Father, and received guidance from the Holy Spirit. However, there where many things that where happening that made my heart very sad for this church. When I brought them up to my pastor he would rationalize why it was ok, that this was more of a “gray” type area. Through the Holy Spirit and any Wisdom that God had and has bestowed upon me, my conscious yelled: there is no room for “gray” areas, or prideful rationalization to assure yourself that your not breaking one of GOD’s law, for GOD’s laws are not to be rationalized by the mind of man and only through the grace of the Holy Spirit (as these laws were made by GOD not man) can we begin a basic understanding and truly obey. I was conflicted, sad, hurt and desperately sought a church who held the laws and teachings as truth and sacred (no gray area).

After three years of seeking, and scriptural study the Holy Spirit led me home. Before this period of time, I would speak against some Catholic traditions and teachings due to lack of understanding the doctrine and catechisms. ** Much of which had to do with the veneration of Mother Mary . To us it was idolatry, that was and is a common misconception. The church teaches that we may ask Mother Mary or other saints to pray with us, for me I had to look at it as simply as asking a fellow church member to pray with me at my old Baptist Church. Mary is deserving of respect, veneration and love. Jesus, free from all sin**, GODly, and full of love loved and respected his earthly mother. Those who believe solely in “Sola Scripture” who love Christ also respect and love Mary as Christ did (Honor thy father and mother) Find one protestant who says they do not love Mary for accepting GOD’s and they do not honor Christ by honoring his mother. It is up to the individual, as GOD gave us free will, to choose adoration and divine worship of Mary which is idolatry, or to honor, respect and love her as the Only mother of Jesus Christ (GOD made flesh), as she is the mother of the King of Kings (a name befitting to her the Queen Mother and calling her such does not raise her to the level of GOD, but shows that GOD’s grace was poured over her) I choose, as I always have since protestant-ism to love, honor and respect Mother Mary the only difference** is that I ask her to pray with me as you would a “pray warrior” in a christian congregation so to speak, and to plead with her son to forgive our sins.(there are some vinal sins we commit that we are unaware of as, therefor they are not repented, as we are not Holy we cannot understand the full extent and qualifications to label sin we are human and sinners). As a mother myself, I ask my children to forgive others. Mary was and is full of grace, chosen from all women to carry Christ in her womb, birth and raise him. To not accept her special place in the nativity or His life does not show love to Christ. As he was free of sin he loved and respected his mother and so must we. Parents do not take glory for their child’s achievements but praise their children in even the smallest of these, and Mother Mary never strayed from a righteous path of humility.

So I pray for your forgiveness bothers and sisters for my ignorance that led to a predjuice in the way you respect, honor and love the Mother of Jesus as I too loved her, and that you may accept this baptized, christian catheumen in the sacrament of Eucharist in the future.

I pray that through GOD’s grace that I am able to humble myself, submit, praise, worship, love and obey him in a way that brings him glory like his willing, humble servant Mary, that all his wayward sheep come home so that they be righteously shepherded and feed, and for all those who do not know Christ for the Holy Spirit to begin the process of opening their hearts to him.

May God Bless us all.**

 

[johnnyjones]

Petition to Mary, do not worship her. We don’t worship the creation, just the creator. Keep it simple.

 

[JRKH]

Petition to Mary, do not worship her. We don’t worship the creation, just the creator. Keep it simple.

 

[TimothyH]

Yes - but how does that statement = Mary is optional…Which is what your response objected to.

It just seems to me that you pulled something from that statement that was not intended.
Try a little exercise with me…Consider the possible inflections that one might use in conversation when one is frustrated as they try to make the point that, regardless of the Importance of Mary…We only worship God.
I don’t know if I can put the emphasis I “hear” down on paper but I’ll try…Remember this is in a rather frustrated frame of mind after arguing for a bit…

It doesn’t matter who Mary is or how she is. We worship only God. That is a basic Christian tenet.

It’s so hard to get the right tenor just in writing…

Peace
James

I don’t argue about the argument. It is just something I don’t do.

I’ll be clear.

Mary as the Mediatrix of Grace and the Co-redemtrix is not inconsistent with worship/adoration due to God alone. It is not inconsistent at all.

Anyone who thinks it is just doesn’t understand the doctrines fully, nor do they understand how ingrained in the Church these doctrines are.

I cannot be clearer without being uncharitable.

-Tim-

 

[JRKH]

I don’t argue about the argument. It is just something I don’t do.

I’ll be clear.

Mary as the Mediatrix of Grace and the Co-redemtrix is not inconsistent with worship/adoration due to God alone. It is not inconsistent at all.

Anyone who thinks it is just doesn’t understand the doctrines fully, nor do they understand how ingrained in the Church these doctrines are.

I cannot be clearer without being uncharitable.

-Tim-

Fine and dandy…but the post that prompted this line of discussion made no statement on any of those things…It was a simple statement saying that no matter how much importance is put on Mary…We only worship God.
You then quoted that posting and jumped in with “Mary is not optional”…(which was never stated in the quoted post) and then added these issues of mediatrix etc…things also not mentioned in the quoted post…

Perhaps I am sensitive to these things because I have had people misunderstand and/or accuse me of saying (or intimating) things that I never said in a post. I hat to see it happen to others as well…

The bottom line is that the poster never said Mary was optional…So your response was defending against something he did not say…I’m not sure on this but don’t they call that a “strawman” argument?

Peace
James

 

[JM3]

It was a simple statement saying that no matter how much importance is put on Mary

I think you are the one reading more into the statement then what was intended.

“It doesn’t matter who Mary is” - This is dismissive, negating the person. The reaction of “Mary is not optional” is a valid response.

I wonder how Jesus would respond to “It doesn’t matter who Mary is”.

 

[Mark121359]

I think you are the one reading more into the statement then what was intended.

“It doesn’t matter who Mary is” - This is dismissive, negating the person. The reaction of “Mary is not optional” is a valid response.

I wonder how Jesus would respond to “It doesn’t matter who Mary is”.

I couldn’t agree more! It sounds like Mary is being degraded a bit in this thread. St. Louis-Marie De Montfort points it out beautifully to whats happening in this very thread!

From: TheTrue Devotion To The Blessed Virgin;
Critical devotees

1. Critical devotees are for the most part proud scholars, people of independent and self-satisfied minds, who deep down in their hearts have a vague sort of devotion to Mary. However, they criticise nearly all those forms of devotion to her which simple and pious people use to honour their good Mother just because such practices do not appeal to them. They question all miracles and stories which testify to the mercy and power of the Blessed Virgin, even those recorded by trustworthy authors or taken from the chronicles of religious orders. They cannot bear to see simple and humble people on their knees before an altar or statue of our Lady, or at prayer before some outdoor shrine. They even accuse them of idolatry as if they were adoring the wood or the stone. They say that as far as they are concerned they do not care for such outward display of devotion and that they are not so gullible as to believe all the fairy tales and stories told of our Blessed Lady. When you tell them how admirably the Fathers of the Church praised our Lady, they reply that the Fathers were exaggerating as orators do, or that their words are misrepresented. These false devotees, these proud worldly people are greatly to be feared. They do untold harm to devotion to our Lady. While pretending to correct abuses, they succeed only too well in turning people away from this devotion.

Scrupulous devotees

1. Scrupulous devotees are those who imagine they are slighting the Son by honouring the Mother. They fear that by exalting Mary they are belittling Jesus. They cannot bear to see people giving to our Lady the praises due to her and which the Fathers of the Church have lavished upon her. It annoys them to see more people kneeling before Mary’s altar than before the Blessed Sacrament, as if these acts were at variance with each other, or as if those who were praying to our Lady were not praying through her to Jesus. They do not want us to speak too often of her or to pray so often to her.

Here are some of the things they say: “What is the good of all these rosaries, confraternities and exterior devotions to our Lady? There is a great deal of ignorance in all this. It is making a mockery of religion. Tell us about those who are devoted to Jesus (and they often pronounce his name without uncovering their heads). We should go directly to Jesus, since he is our sole Mediator. We must preach Jesus; that is sound devotion.” There is some truth in what they say, but the inference they draw to prevent devotion to our Lady is very insidious. It is a subtle snare of the evil one under the pretext of promoting a greater good. For we never give more honour to Jesus than when we honour his Mother, and we honour her simply and solely to honour him all the more perfectly. We go to her only as a way leading to the goal we seek - Jesus, her Son.

1. The Church, with the Holy Spirit, blesses our Lady first, then Jesus, “Blessed art thou among women and blessed is the fruit of thy womb, Jesus.” Not that Mary is greater than Jesus, or even equal to him - that would be an intolerable heresy. But in order to bless Jesus more perfectly we should first bless Mary. Let us say with all those truly devoted to her, despite these false and scrupulous devotees: “O Mary, blessed art thou among women and blessed is the fruit of thy womb, Jesus.”

So many of the Saints throughout the ages turned to our Blessed Mother. Many modern day or soon to be Saints consecrated their lives to Mary the De Montford way, St. Maximilian Kolbe, Blessed Mother Teresa and Pope John Paul ll to name a few.It has been said that Pope John Paul ll was in love with our Lady. I too am in love with her!!! God love you Mary! I’m here to defend you!

 

[Mark121359]

Again from: TheTrue Devotion To The Blessed Virgin;

1. If devotion to the Blessed Virgin is necessary for all men simply to work out their salvation, it is even more necessary for those who are called to a special perfection. I do not believe that anyone can acquire intimate union with our Lord and perfect fidelity to the Holy Spirit without a very close union with the most Blessed Virgin and an absolute dependence on her support.
2. Mary alone found grace before God without the help of any other creature. All those who have since found grace before God have found it only through her. She was full of grace when she was greeted by the Archangel Gabriel and was filled with grace to overflowing by the Holy Spirit when he so mysteriously overshadowed her. From day to day, from moment to moment, she increased so much this twofold plenitude that she attained an immense and inconceivable degree of grace. So much so, that the Almighty made her the sole custodian of his treasures and the sole dispenser of his graces. She can now ennoble, exalt and enrich all she chooses. She can lead them along the narrow path to heaven and guide them through the narrow gate to life. She can give a royal throne, sceptre and crown to whom she wishes. Jesus is always and everywhere the fruit and Son of Mary and Mary is everywhere the genuine tree that bears that Fruit of life, the true Mother who bears that Son.
3. To Mary alone God gave the keys of the cellars of divine love and the ability to enter the most sublime and secret ways of perfection, and lead others along them. Mary alone gives to the unfortunate children of unfaithful Eve entry into that earthly paradise where they may walk pleasantly with God and be safely hidden from their enemies. There they can feed without fear of death on the delicious fruit of the tree of life and the tree of the knowledge of good and evil. They can drink copiously the heavenly waters of that beauteous fountain which gushes forth in such abundance. As she is herself the earthly paradise, that virgin and blessed land from which sinful Adam and Eve were expelled she lets only those whom she chooses enter her domain in order to make them saints.

I think I’ll take my chances with the Saints and I’ll love my Mary with all my heart and strength. She’s my Sweetheart!

 

[JM3]

Catechism of the Catholic Church

vatican.va/archive/ENG0015/__P1K.HTM

487 What the Catholic faith believes about Mary is based on what it believes about Christ, and what it teaches about Mary illumines in turn its faith in Christ.

worship - transitive verb - 2 to regard with great or extravagant respect, honor, or devotion

vatican.va/archive/ENG0015/__P2C.HTM

II. DEVOTION TO THE BLESSED VIRGIN

971 “All generations will call me blessed”: "The Church’s devotion to the Blessed Virgin is intrinsic to Christian worship."513 The Church rightly honors "the Blessed Virgin with special devotion. From the most ancient times the Blessed Virgin has been honored with the title of ‘Mother of God,’ to whose protection the faithful fly in all their dangers and needs… This very special devotion … differs essentially from the adoration which is given to the incarnate Word and equally to the Father and the Holy Spirit, and greatly fosters this adoration."514 The liturgical feasts dedicated to the Mother of God and Marian prayer, such as the rosary, an “epitome of the whole Gospel,” express this devotion to the Virgin Mary.515

 

[JRKH]

I think you are the one reading more into the statement then what was intended.

You may be right.
I don’t think so…but it is certainly possible.

“It doesn’t matter who Mary is” - This is dismissive, negating the person. The reaction of “Mary is not optional” is a valid response.

Again - it depends on how one reads the sentence. I see nothing in the sentence that indicates “Mary is optional” was the intended message.

I wonder how Jesus would respond to “It doesn’t matter who Mary is”.

Since Jesus would know the heart of the person making the comment, His reply would speak to that heart. One thing that we can be sure of is that he would address the entire comment and not simply one phrase pulled out of the comment.

That said…We do know how Jesus responded to “your mother is here asking for you”…He said…
48 But he replied to the man who told him, “Who is my mother, and who are my brothers?” 49 And stretching out his hand toward his disciples, he said, “Here are my mother and my brothers! 50 For whoever does the will of my Father in heaven is my brother, and sister, and mother.” (Mt 12)
On it’s surface, is this statement any less “dismissive” of Mary than the statement - in full - that our fellow poster made here?

No doubt now others will jump in to provide a proper interpretation of that passage and how it doesn’t mean what it sounds like it means. Which is all fine and good…But not necessary.
I only bring it up to suggest that perhaps we should look again that the full statement made - compare that to the statement that Jesus himself made above and decide is one is really any more “dismissive” than the other. To refresh everyone, the OP stated…

It doesn’t matter who Mary is or how important/special she is. We worship only God. That is a basic Christian tenet.

This will be my last comment on the matter as I do not wish to further disturb the peace of my brothers and sisters. Perhaps at some point the OP will pop back in with some clarification.

Peace
James

 

[GaryTaylor]

No-one here is debating the validity of Church teaching on the BVM, the historical significance, Her role in mankinds salvation, the Incarnation foward, the Holy Family, what the early church fathers, Prophets and Saints stated etc etc etc.

What we in essence are discussing is there’s a very real learning curve here. And it does not start with St Louis de Montort, that is the…far end of the spectrum. The Worship which is reserved for God alone as opposed to veneration is the topic.

If we were to decide to take on the responsibility to teach a RCIA class, would you start with St Louis de Montfort and True Devotion to Mary? You would be alone in the class by the second week. In essense this is what we are talking about, thus the very wide vast boundry within Catholic teaching surrounding the topic of not just veneration, but Mary Herself and the Saints.

We do ourselves a disservice with this path imho, in fact it re-affirms what those who foolishly believe about the CC/Mary and came to believe in error. The idea isn’t to confirm the error.

Its self evident there are many here who have a deep love of the Lord, Our Lady and the Holy Family etc. And yes I agree this must be accepted at some point within Christianity since we are dealing with a long existing truth in the Apostolic Church’s. Yet we need to begin the historic story at page one, not the last projected chapter of the teaching of the fifth dogma. Then the vast history and teaching becomes much easier and a very natural process.

Optional is also a slippery slope so perhaps we should clarify in specifics what is and what is not optional.

Just off the top of my head some thoughts…

Are Holy Days of Obligation such as the IC, Assumption and All Saints Day an option?

Is the Deposit of Faith an option?

Is the Mass which we call on Mary and the Saints to pray with us an option?

Your option resides in these area’s…your personal prayer life, private revelation thats approved, and un-approved suggested Dogma.

If I missed something please feel free to correct me or add that which I missed.

 

[JRKH]

Gary - A very good post. Thank you for this.

Peace
James

 

[TimothyH]

That said…We do know how Jesus responded to “your mother is here asking for you”…He said…
48 But he replied to the man who told him, “Who is my mother, and who are my brothers?” 49 And stretching out his hand toward his disciples, he said, “Here are my mother and my brothers! 50 For whoever does the will of my Father in heaven is my brother, and sister, and mother.” (Mt 12)
On it’s surface, is this statement any less “dismissive” of Mary than the statement - in full - that our fellow poster made here?

No doubt now others will jump in to provide a proper interpretation of that passage and how it doesn’t mean what it sounds like it means. Which is all fine and good…But not necessary.

Peace
James

Yes, I will jump, because it is necessary.

Proper interpretation of scripture is absolutely necessary to the peril of our souls, and scriptures written thousands of years ago by members of cultures vastly different from ours and translated into our modern language often do not mean what they sound like on the surface. Thirty thousand denominations give painful witness to this fact. Scripture sometimes means something vastly different from what the words on the page would indicate, because we do not live in a Jewish family in Palestine, 2000 years ago.

The proper interpretation is that Mary is not blessed because she is Jesus mother in the natural order, and that she is not blessed because she is a Jew by race, but that those who are blessed are so because they do the will of God. And no one did the will of God more than Mary.

The woman who said, “Blessed is she who nursed you at her breasts” believed that blessing was bestowed because one was Jewish, or because one was born into a certain family, or because one was the mother of the King or mother of so-and-so. Remember that these are Jewish texts. We have to think like a Jew. Jesus is correcting the woman, telling the crowd that it is obedience to God which makes one an adopted son of the Father and therefor blessed, not circumcision or being a member of a specific tribe or nation or houshold.

Jesus is telling the crowd something specific about Mary. That’s what the conversation was about - Jesus’ mother. That’s what the woman who precipitated Jesus’ statement was talking about - Jesus’ mother. Jesus is telling the crowd that his mother is not blessed because she is a Jew, or because she is the Mother of the King/prophet, or because she nursed the Christ, but that she is blessed because she does God’s will.

Nobody did God’s will more than Mary, and she is blessed because of it. And those who also do God’s will are similary blessed, and adopted sons of the Father. That is the exact meaning of what Jesus is saying. The conversation is about Jesus Mother, and those who imitate his Mother’s obedience. That is what Jesus and the woman are talking about.

-Tim-

 

[jwinch2]

Yes, I will jump, because it is necessary.

Proper interpretation of scripture is absolutely necessary to the peril of our souls, and scriptures written thousands of years ago by members of cultures vastly different from ours and translated into our modern language often do not mean what they sounds like it means. Scripture sometimes means something vastly different from what the words on the page would indicate, because we do not live in a Jewish family in Palestine, 2000 years ago.

The proper interpretation is that Mary is not blessed because she is Jesus mother in the natural order, and that she is not blessed because she is a Jew by race, but that those who are blessed are so because they do the will of God. And no one did the will of God more than Mary.

The woman who said, “Blessed is she who nursed you at her breasts” believed that blessing was bestowed because one was Jewish, or because one was born into a certain family, or because one was the mother of the King or mother of so-and-so. Jesus is correcting the woman, telling the crowd that it is obedience to God which makes one an adopted son of the Father and therefor blessed.

Jesus is telling the crowd something specific about Mary. That’s what the conversation was about - Jesus’ mother. That’s what the woman who precipitated Jesus’ statement was talking about - Jesus’ mother. Jesus is telling the crowd that his mother is not blessed because she is a Jew, or because she is the Mother of the King/prophet, or because she nursed the Christ, but that she is blessed because she does God’s will.

Nobody did God’s will more than Mary, and she is blessed because of it. And those who also do God’s will are similary blessed, and adopted sons of the Father. That is the exact meaning of what Jesus is saying.

The conversation is about Jesus Mother, and those who imitate his Mother. That is what Jesus and the woman are talking about.

-Tim-

From everything that I have read, that is my understanding of that passage of Sacred Scripture as well.

 

[JRKH]

Gary - A wonderful post.

Indeed none of this is, or should be about “optional” in so far as official Church doctrine and teaching goes. Optional has more to do with where one is in their journey, and the particular path that they are drawn (or called) to - within the spirituality of the Church.

And if I might add, this is where the danger (such that it is) lies. Not in Church teaching, but in private devotion.
In official, documented Church teaching there is no danger of either ignoring Mary or inappropriate “worship” of Mary.
However, in the mind and heart of an individual…In their private devotions and beliefs…This is where one might fall into error…This is where there is danger of getting out of kilter in what is proper devotion to our Blessed Mother.

This is why…In conversations such as this…I am far less interested in what someone like DeMontfort has to say than I am in what the Catechism has to say.

Peace
James

 

[JM3]

I see nothing in the sentence that indicates “Mary is optional” was the intended message.

This is where you err. The reaction “Mary is not optional” does not mean that “Mary is optional” is the intent of the message. You are the one creating the ‘strawman’.

Let’s look at the ‘full’ statement.

It doesn’t matter who Mary is or how important/special she is. We worship only God. That is a basic Christian tenet.

As I said, the first sentence is dismissive and says that Mary is irrelevant. This is not Church teaching. To remove Mary from salvation history is to no longer have salvation. To say that God would have just found someone else is false. There is no one else.

“We worship only God”. This is incorrect. As the CCC states in paragraph 971, "The Church rightly honors “the Blessed Virgin with special devotion.” This “special devotion”, in english, is rightly called worship (transitive verb) and is not the same worship (noun) that is given to God. The CCC clearly says this, “This very special devotion … differs essentially from the adoration which is given to the incarnate Word and equally to the Father and the Holy Spirit, and greatly fosters this adoration”.

To limit a word to one definition and use that one definition in all instances of that word is to misuse the english language. I believe I pointed this out in a previous post.

Perhaps at some point the OP will pop back in with some clarification.

I don’t think he/she will or he/she would have done so by now.

 

[TimothyH]

From everything that I have read, that is my understanding of that passage of Sacred Scripture as well.

They lived under a monarchy. We do not understand life as it was lived under a king with absolute power over life and death. You didn’t even look at the king. When the king rode down the street you dove to the ground, prostrated yourself, and raising your eyes to glance at the king meant being struck dead. A lack of understanding of what it meant to live in a monarchy and how one reacted to the presence of a king has lead a large portion of Christianity to view Jesus the King only as a brother or friend, forgetting that he is also an absolute ruler and judge, with the power of life and death.

They had debtor’s prisons. We do not understand that a total stranger could “Redeem” you from a debtor’s prision, paying the ammount you owed and therefor purchase you as a servant or a slave, and that you had a right to refuse that redemption. We have lost the context of what it means to be “handed over to the guard and thrown into prision until you have paid the last penny” because we don’t have debtor’s prisons any longer. A lack of understanding about debtors prisons leads to an incorrect understanding of Jesus own words, and a misunderstanding about what the terms redemption and salvation mean.

They lived in family structures known as the bet ab. These were two or more families - husband, wife and children, or husband, multiple wives and children - living together, eating together, sleeping together and worshipping together. That’s how Jesus could have “Brothers” who were not Mary’s sons, because they spent so much time together living in this type of family arrangement. This directly contributes to an incorrect understanding of Mary’s virginity and relationship to the Holy Spirit as his spouse.

When Jesus was baptized in the Jordan, he was undergoing a ritual Mikveh purification bath. Much of non-Catholic Christianity does not believe that baptism actually removes sin, because they have no clue what a mikvah bath is or what the Jews understood it to be, and therefor don’t understand how Jesus was elevating it to sacramental status as a purification, an actual removal of sin.

I’m sorry. It isn’t even about Mary any longer. It’s about proper interpretation of scripture. I love scripture, and I hate to see anyone handle it incorrectly. I wish I were better.

-Tim-