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:yup:
@Tim: that last post was amazing http://forum.mess.be/style_emoticons/mess.be/msn_disappointed.gif
Mark121359
Well-known member
Please don’t misunderstand what I am trying to say here. I agree that you first have to grasp what the Catechism teaches about Mary. But when you do understand what the Church teaches, I would think, at least I believe that to see what the Saints perspective was on Mary is prudent. And when the subject is Mary, St. Louis-Marie Grignion de Montfort is one of the first that comes to mind. I certainly wouldn’t just dismiss him as some nobody with nothing important to say. Mother Angelica, whom I deeply admire and all her sisters took the Montfort Consecration as well as the Franciscan Missionaries of the Eternal Word religious order of Priests and Brothers.Johnnette Benkovic, Father Michael Gaitley and so many others have great praise for his work! Pope John Paul ll is to me anyway one of the great voices of our Church in my lifetime. Some would argue in history. His take on De Montford is some very high praise indeed. Its a little bit of a read but heres the link; ewtn.com/library/MARY/totusjp2mont.HTM
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GaryTaylor
Guest
I don’t believe anyone here is misunderstood, yet the danger is in the OP misunderstanding.
I’ve read the Saints work and think its wonderful and well thought out, I have also seen his work discussed on EWTN, Fr Pacwa, Women of Grace also. The show is a Blessing.
Obviously we have no idea of the intention of the OP since further response is yet to come.
I just thought perhaps there’s a point where it probably serves those in the RCIA and early stage of Catholicism better, when we could maybe begin with the Incarnation foward. Its really just a matter of an individual being inundated with way to much information from the start imho.
What we see by large with protestants who have been for example constantly taught Christ/Cross, they’re missing perhaps the greatest mystery of all which I believe St Loius de Montfort states in the Incarnation. All mystery NT proceeds from Annunciation/Incarnation. I don’t believe as Catholics we place less significance on the Cross, rather see a the larger picture in the mysteries of Scripture.
The change has been systematic through the centuries from the reformers foward. I also see the process as systematic in correct understanding. While we may not engage the OP further in this conversation, still the thread can be of value to take a look at where each one begins as a starting point in similiar threads.
I understand how one becomes filled with the HS through Our Ladys intercession and can’t speak enough on Her behalf. Its a Blessing for sure, we must keep in mind not everyone is at this point.
Something to think about is all.
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JRKH
Guest
I could not agree more…If one feels called to that deeper understanding.
I don’t think anyone here has tried to dismiss him. I certainly have not.
It’s just that, in conversations such as these, it is best to stick with official, documented Church teaching so as to provide the surest foundation to the widest audience.
And I am sure that this consecration has greatly benefited their private devotion and prayer life. But again…in order to provide the best foundation for the widest range of people, it is best to stick to that which is taught in the Catechism.
Peace
James
Mark121359
Well-known member
Agreed. We can pray that all who come to know the Catholic Faith will truly get to know this extraordinary Mother!
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JRKH
Guest
Mark121359
Well-known member
Amen.
While not neglecting to get to know her extraordinary Son…
Peace
James
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TimothyH
Guest
She is more than an intercessor.
She has been granted authority over the treasury of graces won by Her Son on the Cross, and these she distributes to those whom she wills. Christ has given her this authority because her will is conformed perfectly to Christ’s, but it is her will all the same. Every conversion, every grace recieved from every prayer, every return to sanctifying grace through every confession, the infusion of Grace I felt when I made a 33 year confession, it all comes to us because Mary decided that it should.
Grace was won on the cross. Grace is an action of the Holy Spirit. Grace is distributed to us by Mary. That is God’s plan. That is how God willed it to be.
When, at the words of the priest and by the power of the Holy Spirit Christ becomes present on the altar, Mary is there. She sits with her son this moment, the Queen of Heaven and Earth, with a crown, next to her Son the King. Mary is never apart from her son. Quiety, humbly, and without being noticed, Mary is present.
It is more than just intercessory prayer. Mary is more than just a Fed-Ex truck for our prayers. She has a role to play in our salvation. We ignore Mary to our peril, just as we ignore the sacraments, the Church, the Scriptures and self-sacrificing love for each other to our own peril. They are all part of God’s plan. They are all how God willed that we come to salvation.
-Tim-
She has been granted authority over the treasury of graces won by Her Son on the Cross, and these she distributes to those whom she wills. Christ has given her this authority because her will is conformed perfectly to Christ’s, but it is her will all the same. Every conversion, every grace recieved from every prayer, every return to sanctifying grace through every confession, the infusion of Grace I felt when I made a 33 year confession, it all comes to us because Mary decided that it should.
Grace was won on the cross. Grace is an action of the Holy Spirit. Grace is distributed to us by Mary. That is God’s plan. That is how God willed it to be.
When, at the words of the priest and by the power of the Holy Spirit Christ becomes present on the altar, Mary is there. She sits with her son this moment, the Queen of Heaven and Earth, with a crown, next to her Son the King. Mary is never apart from her son. Quiety, humbly, and without being noticed, Mary is present.
It is more than just intercessory prayer. Mary is more than just a Fed-Ex truck for our prayers. She has a role to play in our salvation. We ignore Mary to our peril, just as we ignore the sacraments, the Church, the Scriptures and self-sacrificing love for each other to our own peril. They are all part of God’s plan. They are all how God willed that we come to salvation.
-Tim-
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LilyM
Guest
Everyone Is called to a deeper understanding! Heaven is, in essence, a place o the deepest possible understanding, so the deeper we go the closer to Heaven.
We don’t neglect to teach our RCIA candidates about transubstantiation, or about the Trinity, or about the Immacukate Conception, just because these are difficult concepts to grasp. Nor did Jesus back away from the hard teachings even when people walked away from Him because of it.
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JRKH
Guest
A very good point. And we all need to keep in mind that there are various avenues of study, devotion, prayer, etc that lead to these deeper understandings. Such understanding cannot be forced. It needs to be led by the Holy Spirit interacting with the soul and proceed in steps that are suited to the specific journey of that soul.
Understood.
When you teach the Marion Doctrines, do you teach DeMonfort? I’ll bet not. You teach what is in the Catechism and if people feel called to deeper study of Marion devotion that is fine…they are encouraged to do so.
Peace
James
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GaryTaylor
Guest
No-one said different.
Documented through encyclicals which relate to V-II and the Saints.
We are saved only by God’s grace working in us. Thus we are justified, transformed from the state of unrighteousness into a state of holiness and the sonship of God, on account of Christ. Justification is the merciful and freely given act of God which takes away our sins and makes us just and holy in our whole being. This justification is given to us in the Sacrament of Baptism. Justification is the beginning of our free response to God, that is our faith in Christ and our cooperation with the Grace of the Holy Spirit. Thus Catholics believe in salvation by grace alone, solely on account of the work of Christ.
How about the Apostle Pauls conversion, the Eucharist, Adoration, Baptism?
That Grace was given to “ALL” by God. Or as St Louis de Montfort states…
“Grace and help of God is absolutely necessary for us to attain this transformation into the full stature of Jesus Christ. WE KNOW THAT GRACE IS GIVEN TO ALL, but it is not given to all in the the same measure. I say not in the same measure, because GOD does not give his graces in equal measure to everyone. In his infinite goodness he always gives more than sufficient grace to each. But the response of the soul to GODs GRACE determines how he will progress. A person who responds to great graces should perform great works, while a person who responds to lesser graces will perform lesser works. Our actions should correspond to the Graces Given To Us By GOD: if we faithfully respond to them. Because we almost always respond inadequately to the graces which God gives to us, we must find a means by which HE will continue to pour out his graces into our souls, in spite of our unworthiness.” Secret of Mary"by St Louis de Montfort
Pope Pius XII, Encyclical, Mystici Corporis, June 29, 1943, AAS 35, 1943, 248.
“May she, then, the most holy Mother of all the members of Christ, to whose Immaculate Heart we have confidently consecrated all people … ask earnestly that most abundant streams of graces from the lofty “Head” may flow down on all the members of the Mystical body without interruption.”
But is She present in the Eucharist? Which contradicts your earlier point.
And what does a Queen do? As St Athanasius stated, interceed for Her Son since Her will cannot be contrary to His will.
Mary’s role in dispensation flows logically from her role in acquiring all graces. Further, the V-II Council itself added a note on the below passage, in which it refers us to the texts of Leo XIII, Adiutricem populi, St. Pius X, Ad diem illum, Pius XI, Miserentissimus Redemptor, and Pius XII, Radiomessage to Fatima.
The Second Vatican Council (Lumen gentium ## 61-62), said:
… in suffering with Him as He died on the cross, she cooperated in the work of the Savior, in an altogether singular way, by obedience, faith, hope, and burning love, to restore supernatural life to souls. As a result she is our Mother in the order of grace.
This motherhood of Mary in the economy of grace lasts without interruption, from the consent which she gave in faith at the annunciation, and which she unhesitatingly bore with under the cross, even to the perpetual consummation of all the elect. For after being assumed into heaven, she has not put aside this saving function, but by her manifold intercession, she continues to win the gifts of eternal salvation for us. By her motherly love, she takes care of the brothers of her Son who are still in pilgrimage and in dangers and difficulties, until they be led through to the happy fatherland. For this reason, the Blessed Virgin is invoked in the Church under the titles of Advocate, Auxiliatrix, Adiutrix, and Mediatrix. This however it to be so understood that it takes nothing away, or adds nothing to the dignity and efficacy of Christ the one Mediator. For no creature can ever be put on the same level with the Incarnate Word and Redeemer…"
Mary was associated with her Son in acquiring grace for us, she will also share with him in distributing that grace to us.
The administra of grace, meaning that She administers or dispenses it.
Pope Leo XIII, Iucunda semper, said: “… when He [the Father] has been invoked with excellent prayers, our humble voice turns to Mary; in accordance with no other law than that law of conciliation and petition which was expressed as follows by St. Bernardine of Siena : ‘Every grace that is communicated to this world has a threefold course. For by excellent order, it is dispensed from God to Christ, from Christ to the Virgin, from the Virgin to us.’”
Self Evident Tim, Mary “already” played a role in mankinds Salvation.
However by your first statement you reduce the value of Intercession to “just intercession”. Isn’t “just” Marys intercession enough to save a soul through the Lords will? Fed-Ex truck are your words.
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GaryTaylor
Guest
CONT,
Mary had a role from Her prayer intercession from before the Annuciation foward, its was Her prayer intercession for mankind from the on-set. Her faith. It was Mary alone who merited and found grace before God by the power of her prayers and the perfection of her virtues. God the Father imparted to Mary his fruitfulness as far as a mere creature was capable of receiving it. This does not mean that the Blessed Virgin confers on the Holy Spirit a fruitfulness which he does not already possess. Being God, he has the ability to produce just like the Father and the Son, although he does not use this power and so does not produce another divine person. But it does mean that the Holy Spirit chose to make use of our Blessed Lady, although he had no absolute need of her, in order to become actively fruitful in producing Jesus Christ and his members in her and by her. This is a mystery of Grace unknown even to many of the most learned and spiritual of Christians.
For Mary, infinitely inferior to her Son, who is God, does not command him in the same way as an earthly mother would command her child who is beneath her.
Since she is completely transformed in God by that Grace and glory which transforms all the Saints in Him, she does not ask or wish or do anything which is contrary to the eternal and changeless will of God.
St Augustine “The world being unworthy, to receive the Son of God directly from the hands of the Father, he gave his Son to Mary for the world to receive him from her.”
First principle: Christ must be the ultimate end of all devotions
Jesus, our Saviour, true God and true man must be the ultimate end of all our other devotions; otherwise they would be false and misleading. He is the Alpha and the Omega, the beginning and end of everything. “We labour,” says St. Paul, “only to make all men perfect in Jesus Christ.” For in him alone dwells the entire fullness of the divinity and the complete fullness of grace, virtue and perfection. In him alone we have been blessed with every spiritual blessing; he is the only teacher from whom we must learn; the only Lord on whom we should depend; the only Head to whom we should be united and the only model that we should imitate. He is the only Physician that can heal us; the only Shepherd that can feed us; the only Way that can lead us; the only Truth that we can believe; the only Life that can animate us. He alone is everything to us and he alone can satisfy all our desires. We are given no other name under heaven by which we can be saved. God has laid no other foundation for our salvation, perfection and glory than Jesus. Every edifice which is not built on that firm rock, is founded upon shifting sands and will certainly fall sooner or later. Every one of the faithful who is not united to him is like a branch broken from the stem of the vine. It falls and withers and is fit only to be burnt. If we live in Jesus and Jesus lives in us, we need not fear damnation. Neither angels in heaven nor men on earth, nor devils in hell, no creature whatever can harm us, for no creature can separate us from the love of God which is in Christ Jesus. Through him, with him and in him, we can do all things and render all honour and glory to the Father in the unity of the Holy Spirit; we can make ourselves perfect and be for our neighbour a fragrance of eternal life.
If then we are establishing sound devotion to our Blessed Lady, it is only in order to establish devotion to our Lord more perfectly, by providing a smooth but certain way of reaching Jesus Christ. If devotion to our Lady distracted us from our Lord, we would have to reject it as an illusion. St Louis de Monfort
Mary had a role from Her prayer intercession from before the Annuciation foward, its was Her prayer intercession for mankind from the on-set. Her faith. It was Mary alone who merited and found grace before God by the power of her prayers and the perfection of her virtues. God the Father imparted to Mary his fruitfulness as far as a mere creature was capable of receiving it. This does not mean that the Blessed Virgin confers on the Holy Spirit a fruitfulness which he does not already possess. Being God, he has the ability to produce just like the Father and the Son, although he does not use this power and so does not produce another divine person. But it does mean that the Holy Spirit chose to make use of our Blessed Lady, although he had no absolute need of her, in order to become actively fruitful in producing Jesus Christ and his members in her and by her. This is a mystery of Grace unknown even to many of the most learned and spiritual of Christians.
For Mary, infinitely inferior to her Son, who is God, does not command him in the same way as an earthly mother would command her child who is beneath her.
Since she is completely transformed in God by that Grace and glory which transforms all the Saints in Him, she does not ask or wish or do anything which is contrary to the eternal and changeless will of God.
St Augustine “The world being unworthy, to receive the Son of God directly from the hands of the Father, he gave his Son to Mary for the world to receive him from her.”
First principle: Christ must be the ultimate end of all devotions
Jesus, our Saviour, true God and true man must be the ultimate end of all our other devotions; otherwise they would be false and misleading. He is the Alpha and the Omega, the beginning and end of everything. “We labour,” says St. Paul, “only to make all men perfect in Jesus Christ.” For in him alone dwells the entire fullness of the divinity and the complete fullness of grace, virtue and perfection. In him alone we have been blessed with every spiritual blessing; he is the only teacher from whom we must learn; the only Lord on whom we should depend; the only Head to whom we should be united and the only model that we should imitate. He is the only Physician that can heal us; the only Shepherd that can feed us; the only Way that can lead us; the only Truth that we can believe; the only Life that can animate us. He alone is everything to us and he alone can satisfy all our desires. We are given no other name under heaven by which we can be saved. God has laid no other foundation for our salvation, perfection and glory than Jesus. Every edifice which is not built on that firm rock, is founded upon shifting sands and will certainly fall sooner or later. Every one of the faithful who is not united to him is like a branch broken from the stem of the vine. It falls and withers and is fit only to be burnt. If we live in Jesus and Jesus lives in us, we need not fear damnation. Neither angels in heaven nor men on earth, nor devils in hell, no creature whatever can harm us, for no creature can separate us from the love of God which is in Christ Jesus. Through him, with him and in him, we can do all things and render all honour and glory to the Father in the unity of the Holy Spirit; we can make ourselves perfect and be for our neighbour a fragrance of eternal life.
If then we are establishing sound devotion to our Blessed Lady, it is only in order to establish devotion to our Lord more perfectly, by providing a smooth but certain way of reaching Jesus Christ. If devotion to our Lady distracted us from our Lord, we would have to reject it as an illusion. St Louis de Monfort
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CatholicofAgora
Guest
I apologize for neglecting this thread for so long, as I have been very busy in my personal life. First of all, JM3, often times words SHOULD BE and often ARE limited to a single definition to match their context. For example, if we are to say we “worship” the BVM because both the definition of “veneration” and the definition of the word “worship” are inclusive to the phrase “to regard with great or extravagant respect, honor, or devotion” then we are also to admit that we commit idolatry, since the definition of idolatry is inclusive to the phrase " excessive adoration, reverence,devotion, etc."
Jesus says to Satan in the Gospel of St. Matthew “Away from me satan! For it is written ‘worship God alone, and him only you shall serve’!” It is nothing but confusing to the Christian faithful to allow “veneration” at the level of hyperdulia to cross into the “worship” of latria. If I were to call you “gay”, you’d hope that I were implying that you are cheerful, not that you had a homosexual attraction to the same sex (not that I think you’re gay or a homosexual, it’s just an example. I’m sure that you’re a generally cheerful, straight individual.)
Secondly, TimothyH, I am not saying that Mary is “optional” by saying, “It doesn’t matter who Mary is or how important/special she is. We worship only God. That is a basic Christian tenet.” I am saying that we worship God alone, and it doesn’t matter how important/special the BVM is (which implies, obviously, that she IS special and important, btw,) but that doesn’t mean we do not worship God alone, and serve only him
And thirdly, JM3, I am not “denying free will” by saying that “Mary did not say “yes” to God out of her own goodness, she did it from the grace that God has filled her with.” We can agree that all grace and goodness proceeds from God, even when manifested in his creation. Mary responded, “behold, I am the maidservant of the Lord, let it be done to me according to your word.” It is only in the humility of the free will that God fills us with such grace. Mary was “full of grace.” Grace proceeds from God which made her “highly favored among women” because she had the humility in here own free will to conceive of such grace. But regardless, in the beginning, God made it “good.” This is why all grace and all goodness proceeds from him. As he said “apart from me you can do nothing.”
Jesus says to Satan in the Gospel of St. Matthew “Away from me satan! For it is written ‘worship God alone, and him only you shall serve’!” It is nothing but confusing to the Christian faithful to allow “veneration” at the level of hyperdulia to cross into the “worship” of latria. If I were to call you “gay”, you’d hope that I were implying that you are cheerful, not that you had a homosexual attraction to the same sex (not that I think you’re gay or a homosexual, it’s just an example. I’m sure that you’re a generally cheerful, straight individual.)
Secondly, TimothyH, I am not saying that Mary is “optional” by saying, “It doesn’t matter who Mary is or how important/special she is. We worship only God. That is a basic Christian tenet.” I am saying that we worship God alone, and it doesn’t matter how important/special the BVM is (which implies, obviously, that she IS special and important, btw,) but that doesn’t mean we do not worship God alone, and serve only him
And thirdly, JM3, I am not “denying free will” by saying that “Mary did not say “yes” to God out of her own goodness, she did it from the grace that God has filled her with.” We can agree that all grace and goodness proceeds from God, even when manifested in his creation. Mary responded, “behold, I am the maidservant of the Lord, let it be done to me according to your word.” It is only in the humility of the free will that God fills us with such grace. Mary was “full of grace.” Grace proceeds from God which made her “highly favored among women” because she had the humility in here own free will to conceive of such grace. But regardless, in the beginning, God made it “good.” This is why all grace and all goodness proceeds from him. As he said “apart from me you can do nothing.”
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JM3
Guest
What you put forth for belief is protestantism. It is not what the Church teaches. Go back and read the links I gave and read the Catechism of the Catholic Church. Nothing I have stated is idolatry.
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Ignatius
Guest
It is not a legitimate issue because it is a False accusation that The Church teaches idolatry of any kind.
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1_with_God
Guest
Catholic’s do not worship mary.
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