Is Worship of the Virgin Mary a Legitimate issue?

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CatholicofAgora said:
I’ll let my other readers be the judge of that.
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You continue to confuse the definitions (latria, hyerdulia, dulia). Just because you think words should be limited to a single definition, does not mean they should.

Christ said that we are to worship God alone. The word represents that kind of worship reserved for God alone, and the Church has taught that God, and God alone, is to receive the worship due to Him since the beginning. However, we also see see the Angel of God giving reverence and honor to Mary (hyerdulia) when he appears to her, and calls out “Hail, full of Grace”…“the Lord has found Favor with you”… Never in Scripture except here will you see an Angel of God give honor to a human except here. If the Angel of God sees fit to giver her honor, who are we to exempt ourselves? If God saw fit to choose Mary to carry Him within her womb, to suckle Him at her breast, to raise Him as a child…who are we to say she does not deserve our repsect? If God saw fit to honor her, who are we to not honor her? Is the creation more wise than the Creator? Do we understand honor better than He? Can we tell God not to honor His mother because it is idolatry? Shall we rebuke Gabriel the ArchAngel for giving honor to Mary? Shall we refuse to honor our father and mother because it is idolatry? Was God wrong in commanding this?

No, what we need to do is bring ourselves to understand what is meant by “worship” and give proper honor and respect to those to whom we owe it.
 
1_with_God said:
Catholic’s do not worship mary.
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Catechism of the Catholic Church
II. DEVOTION TO THE BLESSED VIRGIN
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971 “All generations will call me blessed”: "The Church’s devotion to the Blessed Virgin is intrinsic to Christian worship."513 The Church rightly honors "the Blessed Virgin with special devotion. From the most ancient times the Blessed Virgin has been honored with the title of ‘Mother of God,’ to whose protection the faithful fly in all their dangers and needs… This very special devotion … differs essentially from the adoration which is given to the incarnate Word and equally to the Father and the Holy Spirit, and greatly fosters this adoration."514 The liturgical feasts dedicated to the Mother of God and Marian prayer, such as the rosary, an “epitome of the whole Gospel,” express this devotion to the Virgin Mary.515
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First, let me point out that the catechism, specifically, uses the definitions of worship to show what is due to Mary and what is due to God and that they are different.

Second, it would do every Catholic well to read the documents referenced in this paragraph.

Lumen Gentium

vatican.va/archive/hist_councils/ii_vatican_council/documents/vat-ii_const_19641121_lumen-gentium_en.html

MARIALIS CULTUS

vatican.va/holy_father/paul_vi/apost_exhortations/documents/hf_p-vi_exh_19740202_marialis-cultus_en.html
 
ahs said:
You continue to confuse the definitions (latria, hyerdulia, dulia). Just because you think words should be limited to a single definition, does not mean they should.

Christ said that we are to worship God alone. The word represents that kind of worship reserved for God alone, and the Church has taught that God, and God alone, is to receive the worship due to Him since the beginning. However, we also see see the Angel of God giving reverence and honor to Mary (hyerdulia) when he appears to her, and calls out “Hail, full of Grace”…“the Lord has found Favor with you”… Never in Scripture except here will you see an Angel of God give honor to a human except here. If the Angel of God sees fit to giver her honor, who are we to exempt ourselves? If God saw fit to choose Mary to carry Him within her womb, to suckle Him at her breast, to raise Him as a child…who are we to say she does not deserve our repsect? If God saw fit to honor her, who are we to not honor her? Is the creation more wise than the Creator? Do we understand honor better than He? Can we tell God not to honor His mother because it is idolatry? Shall we rebuke Gabriel the ArchAngel for giving honor to Mary? Shall we refuse to honor our father and mother because it is idolatry? Was God wrong in commanding this?

No, what we need to do is bring ourselves to understand what is meant by “worship” and give proper honor and respect to those to whom we owe it.
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In the English language we often use the word “worship” as a way to exaggerate honor/devotion to a particular person/thing. However, we have words lesser than that of “worship”, even though they can mean the same thing. Honor, devotion, servitude, veneration, adoration, ect. can all mean the same thing as “worship.” I believe that the line between latria and hyperdulia should be drawn at “worship” for two reasons:

a.) It’s the highest possible sense of the word for honor, venerate, adoration, ect., and

b.) The CCC says in 2096, “Adoration is the first act of the virtue of religion. To adore God is to acknowledge him as God, as the Creator and Savior, the Lord and Master of everything that exists, as infinite and merciful Love. “You shall worship the Lord your God, and him only shall you serve,” says Jesus, citing Deuteronomy.” So it would contradict not only the Bible but the Catechism as well.
 
CatholicofAgora said:
The CCC says in 2096, “Adoration is the first act of the virtue of religion. To adore God is to acknowledge him as God, as the Creator and Savior, the Lord and Master of everything that exists, as infinite and merciful Love. “You shall worship the Lord your God, and him only shall you serve,” says Jesus, citing Deuteronomy.” So it would contradict not only the Bible but the Catechism as well.
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From MARIALIS CULTUS
We contemplate with joy and gratitude the work so far accomplished and the first positive results of the liturgical renewal, destined as they are to increase as this renewal comes to be understood in its basic purposes and correctly applied. **At the same time we do not cease with vigilant solicitude to concern ourself with whatever can give orderly fulfillment to the renewal of the worship with which the Church in spirit and truth (cf. Jn. 4:24) adores the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit, “venerates with special love Mary the most holy Mother of God”(3) and honors with religious devotion the memory of the martyrs and the other saints. **
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The development, desired by us, of devotion to the Blessed Virgin Mary is an indication of the Church’s genuine piety. This devotion fits-as we have indicated above-into the only worship that is rightly called “Christian,” because it takes its origin and effectiveness from Christ, finds its complete expression in Christ, and leads through Christ in the Spirit to the Father. In the sphere of worship this devotion necessarily reflects God’s redemptive plan, in which a special form of veneration is appropriate to the singular place which Mary occupies in that plan.(4)
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You should read this document.

🙂
 
CatholicofAgora said:
The CCC says in 2096, “Adoration is the first act of the virtue of religion. To adore God is to acknowledge him as God, as the Creator and Savior, the Lord and Master of everything that exists, as infinite and merciful Love. “You shall worship the Lord your God, and him only shall you serve,” says Jesus, citing Deuteronomy.” So it would contradict not only the Bible but the Catechism as well.
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Don’t you find it curious that it doesn’t say worship?
 
JM3 said:
From MARIALIS CULTUS

You should read this document.

🙂
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JM3 said:
Don’t you find it urious that it doesn’t say worship?
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When he speaks of “the sphere of worship” he is referring to “the only worship that is rightly called “Christian,” because it takes its origin and effectiveness from Christ, finds its complete expression in Christ, and leads through Christ in the Spirit to the Father.” He’s NOT referring to the “special form of veneration [that] is appropriate to the singular place which Mary occupiesin that plan.” However, the subject of devotion to the BVM IS the subject of the matter, because devotion to the BVM is proper worship to God, not her. I love Christ so I know to love and honor his mother. I know that there is a special place of veneration/devotion to the BVM, but we shouldn’t call that “worship.” Worship in it’s essence express es the highest expression of veneration and devotion, which should be reserved for God alone.

Catholicism for Dummies by Rev. John Trigilio Jr., PhD, ThD and Rev. Kenneth Brighenti, PhD says in big black bold letters on page 257, “No, Catholics Do Not Worship Mary.” The same is said in This Is The Faith by Canon Francis Ripley.

Frankly, I never read “yes, we must worship Mary” in ANY Catholic publications. Only inferences on such words as “devotion” or “veneration” or “honor” ect. Again, worship is the FULLEST sense of these words, which is why it should be reserved for God alone.
 
CatholicofAgora said:
When he speaks of “the sphere of worship” he is referring to “the only worship that is rightly called “Christian,” because it takes its origin and effectiveness from Christ, finds its complete expression in Christ, and leads through Christ in the Spirit to the Father.” He’s NOT referring to the “special form of veneration [that] is appropriate to the singular place which Mary occupiesin that plan.” However, the subject of devotion to the BVM IS the subject of the matter, because devotion to the BVM is proper worship to God, not her. I love Christ so I know to love and honor his mother. I know that there is a special place of veneration/devotion to the BVM, but we shouldn’t call that “worship.” Worship in it’s essence express es the highest expression of veneration and devotion, which should be reserved for God alone.

Catholicism for Dummies by Rev. John Trigilio Jr., PhD, ThD and Rev. Kenneth Brighenti, PhD says in big black bold letters on page 257, “No, Catholics Do Not Worship Mary.” The same is said in This Is The Faith by Canon Francis Ripley.

Frankly, I never read “yes, we must worship Mary” in ANY Catholic publications. Only inferences on such words as “devotion” or “veneration” or “honor” ect. Again, worship is the FULLEST sense of these words, which is why it should be reserved for God alone.
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Let’s not take things out of context.
The development, desired by us, of devotion to the Blessed Virgin Mary is an indication of the Church’s genuine piety. This devotion fits-as we have indicated above-into the only worship that is rightly called “Christian,” because it takes its origin and effectiveness from Christ, finds its complete expression in Christ, and leads through Christ in the Spirit to the Father. In the sphere of worship this devotion necessarily reflects God’s redemptive plan, in which a special form of veneration is appropriate to the singular place which Mary occupies in that plan.(4)
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If you want to be the sole authority of how a word is defined, then do as you please, but I object to you forcing your definition onto me in place of the Church’s definition.
 
Why does Mary deserve our devotion, prayers,love, kneeling , statues and not deserve our adoration and worship?
 
JM3 said:
Let’s not take things out of context.

If you want to be the sole authority of how a word is defined, then do as you please, but I
object to you forcing your definition onto me in place of the Church’s definition.
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Looking at the emboldened lines you quoted from, it would LITERALLY READ, " This devotion fits-into the only worship that is rightly called “Christian,” NOT that it IS the worship it fits into!
Your arguing against yourself!!
IronMIke said:
Why does Mary deserve our devotion, prayers,love, kneeling , statues and not deserve our adoration and worship?
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The same reason any saint of the Church or anyone for that matter doesn’t, because she is not God.
 
I will leave Christianity and become a Jew long before I worship Mary. I would say another branch of christianity, but Catholicism IS Christianity. All the necessary tenets are here. If they are contaminated with idolatry, then the whole religion is.
 
Worship does not cease to be worship depending on who it is directed at. The Bible condemns any worship of the so-called ‘queen of heaven’ (there is only a King of heaven – Jesus Christ):
‘…to make cakes to the queen of heaven, and to pour out drink offerings unto other gods, that they may provoke me to anger.’ Jeremiah 7:18
‘…to burn incense unto the queen of heaven…’ Jeremiah 44:17
Peter refused to accept worship:
‘And as Peter was coming in, Cornelius met him, and fell down at his feet, and worshipped him. But Peter took him up, saying, Stand up; I myself also am a man.’ Acts 10:25-26
The real Mary (only described as blessed by God in the Bible) was an ordinary woman who was a sinner saved by grace through faith alone in Jesus Christ. After the birth of Christ she also had other children with her husband Joseph – Mark 6:3, Matthew 1:25.
 
CatholicofAgora said:
I will leave Christianity and become a Jew long before I worship Mary. I would say another branch of christianity, but Catholicism IS Christianity. All the necessary tenets are here. If they are contaminated with idolatry, then the whole religion is.
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It is clear that you refuse to understand, so do as you please. I am done trying to correct you of your protestantism and am walking away.

🤷
 
Saying you worship anyone other than God is still idolatry and blasphemy, even if it’s to a lesser extent. That’s like saying it’s ok to cheat on your wife because you only do a little bit.
 
CatholicofAgora said:
In the English language we often use the word “worship” as a way to exaggerate honor/devotion to a particular person/thing. However, we have words lesser than that of “worship”, even though they can mean the same thing. Honor, devotion, servitude, veneration, adoration, ect. can all mean the same thing as “worship.” I believe that the line between latria and hyperdulia should be drawn at “worship” for two reasons:

a.) It’s the highest possible sense of the word for honor, venerate, adoration, ect., and

b.) The CCC says in 2096, “Adoration is the first act of the virtue of religion. To adore God is to acknowledge him as God, as the Creator and Savior, the Lord and Master of everything that exists, as infinite and merciful Love. “You shall worship the Lord your God, and him only shall you serve,” says Jesus, citing Deuteronomy.” So it would contradict not only the Bible but the Catechism as well.
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I think I see where the confusion is coming from. Please recall that the language of the Church is not historically English. Greek and Latin are the primary languages where most of Her teachings take on their truer meanings.

The bolded is the primary area that I believe is confusing you. This is incorrect…you have it backwards. "Worship is not the elevated sense of honor/veneration/adoration. The opposite is the case. “Adoration” is the highest form of “worship”…it is called “latria”. “Veneration” is another form of “worship”…lower than “Adoration”. It is such as what Mary spoke when she said “all shall call me blessed”. “Honor” is still another lower form of the word “worship”. “Worship” is a word to describe different types of honor/respect given…the highest form of which is “Adoration”.

Historically speaking, in the truest definition of worship and all the forms it takes…one can say…I “adore” God because it is the highest form of worship and is for God alone. I “venerate” the Saints because it is proper to give them due honor, just as the Angel of God did for Mary. I “honor” my parents because God has commanded it of me…to “honor they father and thy mother”. All forms, adoration and veneration and honor, are degrees of the word “worship”…the highest of which is adoration. Latria, hyperdulia, dulia…adoration, veneration, honor due to one.

To say that you will not honor Mary is the same as saying that you don’t believe Christ deserved a woman apart from other women from whom to be born. The problem with this is that…well…God believes contrary to you. What are we when are beliefs are in conflict with God’s?
 
CatholicofAgora said:
Saying you worship anyone other than God is still idolatry and blasphemy, even if it’s to a lesser extent. That’s like saying it’s ok to cheat on your wife because you only do a little bit.
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See above for the correct understanding of the word “worship” and the fact that it is not “worship” which is the highest form of “adoration”…rather “adoration” is the highest form of “worship”. Regardless…if your definition of “worship” is the way you choose to see it…then no…Catholics do NOT worship Mary.

But here is a great help as well from Fr, Vincent Serpa. It was in response to a question about what is so special about Mary…why should we hold her in high esteem:

Why do we Catholics hold Mary in such high esteem? (I never tire of answering this one.) For starters, because God does! It was God the Father who sent the angel Gabriel to salute her: “Hail, full of grace!” Up to that point when an angel appeared to a human being, it was the human being that showed reverence to the angel; not the angel to the human being. But God determined that Mary would co-operate with Him in making the Savior present to the world. Her very womb became a tabernacle. She alone had the sublime honor of nursing God at her breast! Because of the sublime relationship she would have with the Son of God, God created her to be spotless and free from original sin. You see, Mary is special because of how much more special Jesus is. When people look down on Mary, without realizing it, they are suggesting that Jesus doesn’t deserve so special a mother. But Catholics have always recognized that He does.

Fr. Vincent Serpa, O.P.

It is found here:
forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?t=722910
 
CatholicofAgora said:
I will leave Christianity and become a Jew long before I worship Mary. I would say another branch of christianity, but Catholicism IS Christianity. All the necessary tenets are here. If they are contaminated with idolatry, then the whole religion is.
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Then you directly reject the Word of God. For, we know the Scriptures are the Word of God…and we know the Word of God quotes Mary as saying, “…all generations shall call me blessed…”. You also tell God, implicitly, that HE is wrong to hold Mary is such esteem. (See Fr. Serpa’s reply which I posted above)

What you should do instead of reject God’s Word is go a learn the proper understanding of the word “worship” and what is does, and does NOT, mean. I have provided the basics for you above for your convenience, but you can also study Church teaching on it, as JM3 has pointed you toward.
 
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