Is Yeshua the Mashiach?

[Randy_Carson]

Is Yeshua (Jesus) the Mashiach (Messiah or “Annointed One”)?

There are over 300 prophecies from the Hebrew Scriptures (or Old Testament) concerning the Mashiach (Messiah), and while some of these are more obscure than others, many appear to be very obviously fulfilled by Yeshua (Jesus) of Nazareth. Here is a “Top Twelve List” of those prophecies:

12. The Messiah would rise from the dead on the third day.

On the third day, he will raise us up, that we may live before him. (Hosea 6:2)

“Are you the only one visiting Jerusalem who does not know the things that have happened there in these days?” 19 “What things?” he asked. “About Jesus of Nazareth,” they replied. “He was a prophet, powerful in word and deed before God and all the people. 20 The chief priests and our rulers handed him over to be sentenced to death, and they crucified him; 21 but we had hoped that he was the one who was going to redeem Israel. And what is more, it is the third day since all this took place. 22 In addition, some of our women amazed us. They went to the tomb early this morning 23 but didn’t find his body. They came and told us that they had seen a vision of angels, who said he was alive (Luke 24:18-23).

11. The Messiah would be killed with transgressors.

Therefore I will allot him a portion with the great, and he shall divide the spoil with the strong; because he poured out himself to death, and was numbered with the transgressors; yet he bore the sin of many, and made intercession for the transgressors (Isaiah 53:12).

33 And when they came to a place called Golgotha (which means Place of a Skull), 34 they offered him wine to drink, mixed with gall; but when he tasted it, he would not drink it. 35 And when they had crucified him, they divided his clothes among themselves by casting lots;[m] 36 then they sat down there and kept watch over him. 37 Over his head they put the charge against him, which read, “This is Jesus, the King of the Jews.” 38 Then two bandits were crucified with him, one on his right and one on his left. (Matthew 27:33-38)

10. The Messiah would be crucified and pierced through his hands and feet.

For dogs have surrounded me; a band of evildoers has encompassed me; they pierced my hands and my feet (Psalm 22:16)

24 Now Thomas (also known as Didymus[a]), one of the Twelve, was not with the disciples when Jesus came. 25 So the other disciples told him, “We have seen the Lord!” But he said to them, “Unless I see the nail marks in his hands and put my finger where the nails were, and put my hand into his side, I will not believe.” 26 A week later his disciples were in the house again, and Thomas was with them. Though the doors were locked, Jesus came and stood among them and said, “Peace be with you!” 27 Then he said to Thomas, “Put your finger here; see my hands. Reach out your hand and put it into my side. Stop doubting and believe.” 28 Thomas said to him, “My Lord and my God!” (John 20:24-28)

9. The Messiah would be sit upon and beaten.

6 I [Moshiach] offered My gev (back) to them that deliver blows, and My lekhi (cheeks) to them that pulled out [the beard]: I hid not My face from kelimot (humiliations, shame) and rok (spitting, saliva) (Isaiah 50:6)

65 Then the high priest tore his clothes and said, “He has blasphemed! Why do we still need witnesses? You have now heard his blasphemy. 66 What is your verdict?” They answered, “He deserves death.” 67 Then they spat in his face and struck him; and some slapped him, 68 saying, “Prophesy to us, you Messiah! Who is it that struck you?” (Matthew 26:65-68)

8. The Messiah would remain silent before his captors.

7 He was oppressed, and he was afflicted, yet he opened not his mouth; he is brought as a seh (lamb) to the slaughter, and as a sheep before her shearers is dumb, so he openeth not his mouth (Isaiah 53:7)

12 But when he was accused by the chief priests and elders, he did not answer. 13 Then Pilate said to him, “Do you not hear how many accusations they make against you?” 14 But he gave him no answer, not even to a single charge, so that the governor was greatly amazed (Matthew 27:12-14).

7. The Messiah’s betrayal money would be given to a potter.

13 Then the LORD said to me, “Throw it to the potter, that magnificent price at which I was valued by them.” So I took the thirty shekels of silver and threw them to the potter in the house of the LORD (Zechariah 11:13).

5 And throwing down the pieces of silver in the temple, he departed; and he went and hanged himself. 6 But the chief priests, taking the pieces of silver, said, “It is not lawful to put them into the treasury, since they are blood money.”7 So they took counsel, and bought with them the potter’s field, to bury strangers in (Matthew 27:5-7)

6. The Messiah would be betrayed for thirty pieces of silver.

12 And I said unto them, If ye think tov, give me my sachar (price); and if not, refrain. So they weighed out for my sachar (price) shloshim kesef (thirty pieces of silver) (Zechariah 11:12).

14 Then one of the Twelve—the one called Judas Iscariot—went to the chief priests 15 and asked, “What are you willing to give me if I deliver him over to you?” So they counted out for him thirty pieces of silver (Matthew 26:14-15).

 

[Randy_Carson]

5. The Messiah would be betrayed by a friend who shared a meal with him.

10 (9) Yea, mine own ish shalom (familiar friend, close friend), in whom I trusted, which did eat of my lechem, hath lifted up his heel (i.e., deceitfully showed enmity) against me (Psalm 41:9).

18 And when they had taken their places and were eating, Jesus said, “Truly I tell you, one of you will betray me, one who is eating with me.” 19 They began to be distressed and to say to him one after another, “Surely, not I?” 20 He said to them, “It is one of the twelve, one who is dipping bread[e]into the bowl[f] with me. 21 For the Son of Man goes as it is written of him, but woe to that one by whom the Son of Man is betrayed! It would have been better for that one not to have been born.” (Mark 14:18-21)

4. The Messiah would enter Jerusalem riding on a colt.

9 Rejoice greatly, O Bat Tziyon; shout, O Bat Yerushalayim; hinei, thy Melech cometh unto thee, tzaddik, and having Salvation; ani (lowly, meek), and riding upon a chamor, even upon a colt the foal of a donkey (Zechariah 9:9).

33 As they were untying the colt, its owners asked them, “Why are you untying the colt?” 34 They said, “The Lord needs it.” 35 Then they brought it to Jesus; and after throwing their cloaks on the colt, they set Jesus on it. 36 As he rode along, people kept spreading their cloaks on the road. 37 As he was now approaching the path down from the Mount of Olives, the whole multitude of the disciples began to praise God joyfully with a loud voice for all the deeds of power that they had seen (Luke 19:33-37).

3. The Messiah would be proceeded by a prophet in the desert.

3 The voice of him that preacheth in the midbar, Prepare ye the Derech Hashem, make straight in the Aravah a highway for Eloheinu (Isaiah 40:3)

In those days John the Baptist appeared in the wilderness of Judea, proclaiming, 2 “Repent, for the kingdom of heaven has come near” (Matthew 3:1-2).

 

[dronald]

**

3 The voice of him that preacheth in the midbar, Prepare ye the Derech Hashem, make straight in the Aravah a highway for Eloheinu (Isaiah 40:3)**

In those days John the Baptist appeared in the wilderness of Judea, proclaiming, 2 “Repent, for the kingdom of heaven has come near” (Matthew 3:1-2).

Idk if the Jews consider this messianic as this particular passage is applied to God and the Jews don’t believe the Messiah will be God.

…although it is quoted in all four gospels.

 

[superwimp]

Hello Randy,

  In my faith system it is believed that the soul which eventually became the Christ lived on earth many times before just like all of us do.  Before the soul was born as Jesus he was Joseph, and then David who became king of Israel.

You used the following as one of your proof texts:
For dogs have surrounded me; a band of evildoers has encompassed me; they pierced my hands and my feet (Psalm 22:16). The entire psalm is given in the 1st person. Do you believe the scripture you quoted? Does the fact that the psalm is given in the first person not indicate that the individual who wrote it would be the one going through the crucifixion?

 

[R_C]

In Sacred Scripture one element is blatantly evident to us: the conversations between the Divine Persons. We often witness the Father talking to the Son as well as the Son talking to the Father, and the Psalms are one clear example of this.

My understanding is that the Holy Spirit who spoke through the prophets (according to our Credo) and who, with the Father and the Son is God and thus eternal and thus omniscient, foreknew the sorrows of Christ and could allow the prophet to speak as if Christ Himself was speaking and describing His sorrows.

 

[Randy_Carson]

Hello Randy,

  In my faith system it is believed that the soul which eventually became the Christ lived on earth many times before just like all of us do.  Before the soul was born as Jesus he was Joseph, and then David who became king of Israel.

You used the following as one of your proof texts:
For dogs have surrounded me; a band of evildoers has encompassed me; they pierced my hands and my feet (Psalm 22:16). The entire psalm is given in the 1st person. Do you believe the scripture you quoted? Does the fact that the psalm is given in the first person not indicate that the individual who wrote it would be the one going through the crucifixion?

Speaking prophetically, David anticipates the suffering of his future heir.

 

[R_C]

Before the soul was born as Jesus he was Joseph, and then David who became king of Israel.

That, my friend, is not sound.

To begin with, Jesus is God the Son Incarnate. His “soul” was not Joseph, David, Noah, Adam. His soul was a unique soul created by God and united hypostatically with the Divine Person. Perhaps you should read some of what our Tradition has to offer and compare it with what your religious system has to offer. Many have shown through sound and reasonable arguments the invalidity of the idea of reincarnation, and I can quote a handful of statements tracing back to the very early church.

Irenaeus (AD 189)

We may undermine [the Hellenists’] doctrine as to transmigration from body to body by this fact—that souls remember nothing whatever of the events which took place in their previous states of existence. For if they were sent forth with this object, that they should have experience of every kind of action, they must of necessity retain a remembrance of those things which have been previously accomplished, that they might fill up those in which they were still deficient, and not by always hovering, without intermission, through the same pursuits, spend their labor wretchedly in vain.

Tertullian (AD 197)

some philosopher affirms, as Laberius holds, following an opinion of Pythagoras, that a man may have his origin from a mule [with] the persuasion that he should abstain, lest, by chance, in his beef he eats some ancestor of his …] But if a Christian promises the return of a man from a man, and the very actual Gaius [resurrected] from Gaius, they will not grant him a hearing. If there is any ground for the moving to and fro of human souls into different bodies, why may they not return to the very matter they have left?

Origen (AD 229)

a churchman, who repudiates the doctrine of reincarnation as a false one and does not admit that the soul of John was ever Elijah, may appeal to the above-quoted words of the angel, and point out that it is not the soul of Elijah that is spoken of at John’s birth, but the spirit and power of Elijah. As for the spirits of the prophets, these are given to them by God and are spoken of as being in a manner their property… ‘The spirit of Elijah rested upon Elisha’ [2 Kgs. 2:15]. If the doctrine [of reincarnation] was widely current, ought not John to have hesitated to pronounce upon it, lest his soul had actually been in Elijah?

Ambrose of Milan (AD 380)

It is a cause for wonder that though they say that souls pass and migrate into other bodies. But let those who have not been taught doubt the resurrection. For us who have read the law, the prophets, the apostles, and the gospel, it is not lawful to doubt.

Thomas Aquinas (AD 1264)

The soul needs a body for the obtaining of its end, in so far as it acquires perfection through the body, both in knowledge and in virtue. But the soul, after it has been separated from its body, will not again return to this state in which it receives perfection through the body, as the reincarnationists claimed. We have argued against them above.

The question with every teaching is not whether it sounds good or reasonable, but, rather…where does it come from? Who developed the doctrine?

 

[Nine_Two]

To play an incompetent Devil’s Advocate, because I have seen this counter argument made, but there are also quite a few prophecies made that were not fulfilled by Jesus. The one that comes to mind is the prophecy that he would be a conquering king.

I’m incompetent because I don’t have the verses on hand.

 

[Randy_Carson]

To play an incompetent Devil’s Advocate, because I have seen this counter argument made, but there are also quite a few prophecies made that were not fulfilled by Jesus. The one that comes to mind is the prophecy that he would be a conquering king.

I’m incompetent because I don’t have the verses on hand.

Correct. Jesus of Nazareth did not fulfill all of the Messianic prophecies. Yet.

Ultimately, there will be two Advents. One has already been completed with Jesus as the suffering servant and Messiah ben Joseph. The other with Jesus as the conquering King and Messiah ben David.

The reason for the two comings is that the time in between is the time of the Gentiles; God is grafting in many wild branches to the olive tree.

 

[AveChriste11]

Correct. Jesus of Nazareth did not fulfill all of the Messianic prophecies. Yet.

Ultimately, there will be two Advents. One has already been completed with Jesus as the suffering servant and Messiah ben Joseph. The other with Jesus as the conquering King and Messiah ben David.

The reason for the two comings is that the time in between is the time of the Gentiles; God is grafting in many wild branches to the olive tree.

I don’t think you’ll find any objections among those of us who are Christians as to your entire reasoning throughout this thread. However you will find objections from many Jews who end up mostly repeating the same arguments, not realizing that Judaism and Christianity ever since they parted ways have not understood each other and have spoken two completely different languages. What is crucial in one, will not be crucial in the other…

 

[Randy_Carson]

I don’t think you’ll find any objections among those of us who are Christians as to your entire reasoning throughout this thread. However you will find objections from many Jews who end up mostly repeating the same arguments, not realizing that Judaism and Christianity ever since they parted ways have not understood each other and have spoken two completely different languages. What is crucial in one, will not be crucial in the other…

Yes, this is the work of the Holy Spirit and not me.

Further, as one Jewess told me in this forum very recently, the Jewish idea of sheol or gehenna is very different from our idea of eternal punishment. Some rabbis speculate that the longest ANYONE will ever be there is about nine months.

Obviously, if this is true, then they are not very interested in our arguments since they have no real consequence for ignoring them.

 

[jimmy]

That is the Christian claim. The Jews of course, would disagree.

 

[504Katrin]

Yes, this is the work of the Holy Spirit and not me.

Further, as one Jewess told me in this forum very recently, the Jewish idea of sheol or gehenna is very different from our idea of eternal punishment. Some rabbis speculate that the longest ANYONE will ever be there is about nine months.

Obviously, if this is true, then they are not very interested in our arguments since they have no real consequence for ignoring them.

11 month lol. But I can only refer to what I learned.

 

[Randy_Carson]

11 month lol. But I can only refer to what I learned.

Thanks…I knew it was less than a year.

 

[meltzerboy]

Correct. Jesus of Nazareth did not fulfill all of the Messianic prophecies. Yet.

Ultimately, there will be two Advents. One has already been completed with Jesus as the suffering servant and Messiah ben Joseph. The other with Jesus as the conquering King and Messiah ben David.

The reason for the two comings is that the time in between is the time of the Gentiles; God is grafting in many wild branches to the olive tree.

One of the problems with the “suffering servant” depiction of the Messiah is that it is clearly stated in Isaiah that the Jewish people (Israel, Jacob) is the suffering servant. Since Isaiah defines who the suffering servant is BEFORE Isaiah 53, in Isaiah 42, 49, 50, and 52, it is reasonable to assume that any such description in Isaiah 53 remains the same as the initial definition.

 

[meltzerboy]

Thanks…I knew it was less than a year.

Less than one year of prayer for the deceased by their family because one would not wish to entertain the idea that any family member might be so evil so as to require one full year of prayer in purgatory (Gehinnom). However, those who are really so evil may actually have their soul annihilated according to Jewish teaching (by some). Eternal punishment may also consist of separation from G-d, but not physical torment. The truth of the matter, according to Judaism, is that we really don’t know much about the afterlife since the Torah does not give us much information, and so numerous hypotheses have evolved. The focus of Judaism is on the present life.

 

[Kaninchen]

Even for people who consider the New Testament as more than literature, there are three things to bear in mind when people are seeking Jesus in the Tanakh (our word for what Christians call the Old Testament):

a is the passage concerned really a messianic prophesy; and
b has it has actually been fulfilled; or
c is it actually just a case of grabbing some vague verbal link?

Yes, Jesus would appear to show a phenomenal ability to fulfil (supposed) ‘prophesies’ that involve text-mining and interpretation/reinterpretation but as to prophesies that might have real world, immediate, noticeable consequences - in other words what we Jews consider to have been Messianic prophesies - they’re all saved up for the Second Coming.

A rather tongue-in-cheek response can be found here but don’t read it if you’re easily offended.

 

[meltzerboy]

Is Yeshua (Jesus) the Mashiach (Messiah or “Annointed One”)?

There are over 300 prophecies from the Hebrew Scriptures (or Old Testament) concerning the Mashiach (Messiah), and while some of these are more obscure than others, many appear to be very obviously fulfilled by Yeshua (Jesus) of Nazareth. Here is a “Top Twelve List” of those prophecies:

12. The Messiah would rise from the dead on the third day.

On the third day, he will raise us up, that we may live before him. (Hosea 6:2)

“Are you the only one visiting Jerusalem who does not know the things that have happened there in these days?” 19 “What things?” he asked. “About Jesus of Nazareth,” they replied. “He was a prophet, powerful in word and deed before God and all the people. 20 The chief priests and our rulers handed him over to be sentenced to death, and they crucified him; 21 but we had hoped that he was the one who was going to redeem Israel. And what is more, it is the third day since all this took place. 22 In addition, some of our women amazed us. They went to the tomb early this morning 23 but didn’t find his body. They came and told us that they had seen a vision of angels, who said he was alive (Luke 24:18-23).

11. The Messiah would be killed with transgressors.

Therefore I will allot him a portion with the great, and he shall divide the spoil with the strong; because he poured out himself to death, and was numbered with the transgressors; yet he bore the sin of many, and made intercession for the transgressors (Isaiah 53:12).

33 And when they came to a place called Golgotha (which means Place of a Skull), 34 they offered him wine to drink, mixed with gall; but when he tasted it, he would not drink it. 35 And when they had crucified him, they divided his clothes among themselves by casting lots;[m] 36 then they sat down there and kept watch over him. 37 Over his head they put the charge against him, which read, “This is Jesus, the King of the Jews.” 38 Then two bandits were crucified with him, one on his right and one on his left. (Matthew 27:33-38)

10. The Messiah would be crucified and pierced through his hands and feet.

For dogs have surrounded me; a band of evildoers has encompassed me; they pierced my hands and my feet (Psalm 22:16)

24 Now Thomas (also known as Didymus[a]), one of the Twelve, was not with the disciples when Jesus came. 25 So the other disciples told him, “We have seen the Lord!” But he said to them, “Unless I see the nail marks in his hands and put my finger where the nails were, and put my hand into his side, I will not believe.” 26 A week later his disciples were in the house again, and Thomas was with them.

6 I [Moshiach] offered My gev (back) to them that deliver blows, and My lekhi (cheeks) to them that pulled out [the beard]: I hid not My face from kelimot (humiliations, shame) and rok (spitting, saliva) (Isaiah 50:6)

65 Then the high priest tore his clothes and said, “He has blasphemed! Why do we still need witnesses? You have now heard his blasphemy. 66 What is your verdict?” They answered, “He deserves death.” 67 Then they spat in his face and struck him; and some slapped him, 68 saying, “Prophesy to us, you Messiah! Who is it that struck you?” (Matthew 26:65-68)

8. The Messiah would remain silent before his captors.

7 He was oppressed, and he was afflicted, yet he opened not his mouth; he is brought as a seh (lamb) to the slaughter, and as a sheep before her shearers is dumb, so he openeth not his mouth (Isaiah 53:7)

12 But when he was accused by the chief priests and elders, he did not answer. 13 Then Pilate said to him, “Do you not hear how many accusations they make against you?” 14 But he gave him no answer, not even to a single charge, so that the governor was greatly amazed (Matthew 27:12-14).

13 Then the LORD said to me, “Throw it to the potter, that magnificent price at which I was valued by them.” So I took the thirty shekels of silver and threw them to the potter in the house of the LORD (Zechariah 11:13).

5 And throwing down the pieces of silver in the temple, he departed; and he went and hanged himself. 6 But the chief priests, taking the pieces of silver, said, “It is not lawful to put them into the treasury, since they are blood money.”7 So they took counsel, and bought with them the potter’s field, to bury strangers in (Matthew 27:5-7)

All of these “proof-texts” are really “non-proof texts” when carefully examined according to the Hebrew text and the context surrounding the verses. I’ll take just one of them: Psalm 22:16, in which it states that “they pierced my hands and feet.” The Psalmist is David and it is important to note that David uses animal imagery, including dogs and lions, both before and after this particular verse. The word in question is “kaari,” which means in these other verses “like a lion,” not “pierced.” David is talking about his enemies who encircle him as do lions. The same imagery is used in referring to packs of dogs. However, G-d is still there to save him from destruction. Further, other words in the Hebrew Bible that mean “pierced” are regularly used, including “daqar” and “ratza.” There has also been some discussion about a finding in the Nahal Hever Cave of a manuscript that has the word “kaaru,” which is purported to mean “pierced.” However, such a word does not exist in any Hebrew writing. And the alternative spelling “karu” does not mean “pierced,” but rather “dig” in the sense of “excavate.” Finally, whenever the word “kaari” appears in other parts of the Hebrew Bible, it has always been translated by the King James Bible as “like a lion.” The reason why it is NOT translated this way in Psalm 22:16, but instead as “pierced,” appears to be for the purpose of lending credence to this verse as a prophecy of the Messiah.

 

[Kaninchen]

All of these “proof-texts” are really “non-proof texts” when carefully examined according to the Hebrew text and the context surrounding the verses.

An awful lot of them are of this form -

Isaiah 99:53 ‘. . . . the child shall stub his toe’.

Matthew 77:62: ‘. . . . and Jesus stubbed his toe’.

Where it could be just a matter of spotting some co-incidence or even - for those of us for whom the NT is not reportage/sacred text - that ‘Matthew’ himself had thought “I’d better add some more Isaiah to the story, let’s see, didn’t Isaiah say something about toe-stubbing, ok, how about ‘. . . . and Jesus stubbed his toe.’”

 

[Randy_Carson]

One of the problems with the “suffering servant” depiction of the Messiah is that it is clearly stated in Isaiah that the Jewish people (Israel, Jacob) is the suffering servant. Since Isaiah defines who the suffering servant is BEFORE Isaiah 53, in Isaiah 42, 49, 50, and 52, it is reasonable to assume that any such description in Isaiah 53 remains the same as the initial definition.

I wonder if God is able to work on multiple levels? Could it be that the suffering servant imagery applies to both Israel and Jesus? That Israel was a *type *of Christ?