Is your Devotion valid?

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MarianD

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Devotion to the Saints is an important concept in Catholicism. But even more important is to ensure, teach, and know that when such devotion enters the territory of Adoration, you are not only offending the venerated Saint, but you are also offending God Himself.

So how do you know if your devotion is valid?

Look at the Catechism.

***Adoration is the first act of the virtue of religion. To adore God is to acknowledge him as God, as the Creator and Savior, the Lord and Master of everything that exists, as infinite and merciful Love. “You shall worship the Lord your God, and him only shall you serve,” says Jesus, citing Deuteronomy.

To adore God is to acknowledge, in respect and absolute submission, the “nothingness of the creature” who would not exist but for God. To adore God is to praise and exalt him and to humble oneself, as Mary did in the Magnificat, confessing with gratitude that he has done great things and holy is his name. The worship of the one God sets man free from turning in on himself, from the slavery of sin and the idolatry of the world.*** - CCC 2096-2097

We must be especially careful to never offer up adoration to any created being. God alone is worthy of adoration, and He alone should and will receive it. Rather, instead of adoring the Saints, we must venerate them.

What is Veneration? Here’s it’s official definition according to the United States Conference of Catholic Bishops (USCCB) in its Glossary in the Catechism:

Showing devotion and respect to Mary, the Apostles, and the martyrs, who were viewed as faithful witnesses to faith in Jesus Christ. Later, veneration was given to those who led a life of prayer and self-denial in giving witness to Christ, whose virtues were recognized and publicly proclaimed in their canonization as saints. Such veneration is often extended to the relics or remains of those recognized as saints; indeed, to many sacred objects and images. Veneration must be clearly distinguished from adoration and worship, which are due to God alone

In short, Veneration is giving respect to a holy person.

Veneration is pleasing to God because, by honoring His Holy Ones, we honor Him. By honoring Him, we please Him and worship Him. In this way, veneration is a valid path. But we all must be careful not to let our veneration extend into adoration, because if it does, then our veneration ceases to be pleasing to God and instead becomes heresy.

Prayer to Mary and the Saints is also valid because we know that by praying to them, they will in turn bestow on us graces granted to them by God for our sake and/or they will pray to God for our sake (i.e. act as our intercessors).

So long as we keep in mind that all the things they do for us has its source in God, and that our veneration of them is our way of worshiping God, then our devotion to Saints is valid. It is in this way that we offer up adoration to God. We say two things when we venerate and pray to the Saints:

#1: That God is the Source of all graces the Saints can bestow upon us, and that all of the graces bestowed upon us by them is only given in accordance to the Will of God. In this way, we acknowledge that nothing exists without God, and that everything He grants to anything—including to His holy Saints—is only due to His mercy, love, and power. This itself is adoration and worship.

#2: That we honor those whom God Himself has chosen to honor. In such a way, we say “We trust completely in your judgment, oh Lord, and we love those whom you love”. Honoring God’s children is honoring God, and honoring God is worship.
 
Corki said:
You lost me. What’s your question?
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I’m saying that in order for veneration of Saints to be valid, it must not enter into “adoration territory”, which is defined using the Catechism. Also, I was saying why veneration of Saints is a valid path in worship to God. I have no questions. The title is just a general question to everyone who venerates Saints as a form of their worship of God.
 
I was actually just wondering about how you tell the difference. Thanks for posting this! 👍
 
I agree with your post, but I don’t think I’ve ever met anyone who has worshipped the Saints… well maybe they exist I just don’t know them 🙂 it’s theoretically possible… I think it’s difficult though because the Saints would always try to lead that person closer to Christ! 👍 (and this is even more true of Mary)
 
MarianD said:
Devotion to the Saints is an important concept in Catholicism. But even more important is to ensure, teach, and know that when such devotion enters the territory of Adoration, you are not only offending the venerated Saint, but you are also offending God Himself.

So how do you know if your devotion is valid?

Look at the Catechism.

***Adoration is the first act of the virtue of religion. To adore God is to acknowledge him as God, as the Creator and Savior, the Lord and Master of everything that exists, as infinite and merciful Love. “You shall worship the Lord your God, and him only shall you serve,” says Jesus, citing Deuteronomy.

To adore God is to acknowledge, in respect and absolute submission, the “nothingness of the creature” who would not exist but for God. To adore God is to praise and exalt him and to humble oneself, as Mary did in the Magnificat, confessing with gratitude that he has done great things and holy is his name. The worship of the one God sets man free from turning in on himself, from the slavery of sin and the idolatry of the world.*** - CCC 2096-2097

We must be especially careful to never offer up adoration to any created being. God alone is worthy of adoration, and He alone should and will receive it. Rather, instead of adoring the Saints, we must venerate them.

What is Veneration? Here’s it’s official definition according to the United States Conference of Catholic Bishops (USCCB) in its Glossary in the Catechism:

Showing devotion and respect to Mary, the Apostles, and the martyrs, who were viewed as faithful witnesses to faith in Jesus Christ. Later, veneration was given to those who led a life of prayer and self-denial in giving witness to Christ, whose virtues were recognized and publicly proclaimed in their canonization as saints. Such veneration is often extended to the relics or remains of those recognized as saints; indeed, to many sacred objects and images. Veneration must be clearly distinguished from adoration and worship, which are due to God alone

In short, Veneration is giving respect to a holy person.

Veneration is pleasing to God because, by honoring His Holy Ones, we honor Him. By honoring Him, we please Him and worship Him. In this way, veneration is a valid path. But we all must be careful not to let our veneration extend into adoration, because if it does, then our veneration ceases to be pleasing to God and instead becomes heresy.

Prayer to Mary and the Saints is also valid because we know that by praying to them, they will in turn bestow on us graces granted to them by God for our sake and/or they will pray to God for our sake (i.e. act as our intercessors).

So long as we keep in mind that all the things they do for us has its source in God, and that our veneration of them is our way of worshiping God, then our devotion to Saints is valid. It is in this way that we offer up adoration to God. We say two things when we venerate and pray to the Saints:

#1: That God is the Source of all graces the Saints can bestow upon us, and that all of the graces bestowed upon us by them is only given in accordance to the Will of God. In this way, we acknowledge that nothing exists without God, and that everything He grants to anything—including to His holy Saints—is only due to His mercy, love, and power. This itself is adoration and worship.

#2: That we honor those whom God Himself has chosen to honor. In such a way, we say “We trust completely in your judgment, oh Lord, and we love those whom you love”. Honoring God’s children is honoring God, and honoring God is worship.
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Ok - so how many people do you know who speak of Mary or one of the other saints as being actually their creator or saviour? At least independently of their co-operation with GOD’S only and ultimate acts of creation and salvation? I can say my parents created me, St Paul can say that HE became ‘all things to all men in order that by all means I (Paul) may save some’. But this in no way approaches ADORATION of one’s parents or self-adoration by Paul.

Who do you know of who in any sense calls themselves a ‘creature’ of St Joseph, St Peter or whatnot (in other words believes that the saint actually created and sustains them, which is what being a creature means)?

I know of absolutely no-one who approaches anything like adoration of the saints in this manner, apart from one, and only one, very queer and entirely heretical website about Our Lady out of the millions of saint websites that are out there.

So who or what exactly is this friendly warning of yours in aid of?
 
LilyM said:
Ok - so how many people do you know who speak of Mary or one of the other saints as being actually their creator or saviour? At least independently of their co-operation with GOD’S only and ultimate acts of creation and salvation? I can say my parents created me, St Paul can say that HE became ‘all things to all men in order that by all means I (Paul) may save some’. But this in no way approaches ADORATION of one’s parents or self-adoration by Paul.

Who do you know of who in any sense calls themselves a ‘creature’ of St Joseph, St Peter or whatnot (in other words believes that the saint actually created and sustains them, which is what being a creature means)?

I know of absolutely no-one who approaches anything like adoration of the saints in this manner, apart from one, and only one, very queer and entirely heretical website about Our Lady out of the millions of saint websites that are out there.

So who or what exactly is this friendly warning of yours in aid of?
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After looking at the OP’s previous posts, it appears that she is new to the Church - just starting RCIA. The OP looks like a fairly good apologetic to use when Protestants attack Catholics for idol worship. I am sure this will be useful for the OP (and others) when dealing with old friends and people from her former Church.

It’s not that any Catholic actually does these things; it’s more that many Protestants think we do. 😉
 
Corki said:
After looking at the OP’s previous posts, it appears that she is new to the Church - just starting RCIA. The OP looks like a fairly good apologetic to use when Protestants attack Catholics for idol worship. I am sure this will be useful for the OP (and others) when dealing with old friends and people from her former Church.

It’s not that any Catholic actually does these things; it’s more that many Protestants think we do. 😉
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…He. But yeah.

Anyway, I know for a fact that many Catholics place Mary above God. So many, in fact, that people often confuse who they worship. This is common among cradle Catholics and people who just follow a faith and not learn anything about it. This is to help someone who needs it, and also for use against Protestant arguments. so why are you being so hostile? The advice doesn’t apply to you, great. You don’t have to read it
 
MarianD said:
…He. But yeah.

Anyway, I know for a fact that many Catholics place Mary above God. So many, in fact, that people often confuse who they worship. This is common among cradle Catholics and people who just follow a faith and not learn anything about it. This is to help someone who needs it, and also for use against Protestant arguments. so why are you being so hostile? The advice doesn’t apply to you, great. You don’t have to read it
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I don’t know about “many” Catholics, unless you are speaking of your personal knowledge of certain individuals. I, personally, have yet to meet any Catholic - cradle or convert - who would place Mary above God. Some have a very great attachment to her, but not to the point of making her a deity. Is it an emotional attachment? Perhaps, but it’s not worship. There might be the odd one or two that does venerate her too much, but I certainly wouldn’t say it’s “common” for cradle Catholics to worship Mary. In my experience, that is a Protestant misconception, partially based on poorly explained Catholic traditions.

I think it is incumbent on us Catholics to explain these things, which might be misunderstood. Your post of the difference in adoration and veneration is a good start for this conversation with non-Catholics. For example, we bow at the part in the Nicene Creed where we say, “By the power of the Holy Spirit, He was born of the Virgin Mary and became man.” My parents (who are devout Protestants) thought we were bowing to the Blessed Virgin and asked, with good reason, why we did not bow at the names of the Holy Trinity but only at the Blessed Virgin. They were quite relieved when I told them it was not to Mary that we are bowing, but we bow in honor and reverence for the Incarnation of Christ - an event that radically changed human history. Mary was the vessel, but the Incarnation of Christ is the event. How could we not bow in reverence and awe at God-Made-Flesh?

I appreciate your post’s apologetics value. As a convert myself, I have encountered many Protestant friends who claim I am now an “idolater.” 😃 My comment is that (a) we don’t believe that life ends at death - it merely changes, and, because of this, (b) I look at the saints as I would older, more-experienced siblings. They are role models, confidantes, intercessors - our family in Heaven. As they are closer to the Throne and are “our great cloud of witnesses” (as St. Paul says), I figure asking them to pray for me can only help! 🙂
 
MarianD said:
…He. But yeah.

Anyway, I know for a fact that many Catholics place Mary above God. So many, in fact, that people often confuse who they worship. This is common among cradle Catholics and people who just follow a faith and not learn anything about it. This is to help someone who needs it, and also for use against Protestant arguments. so why are you being so hostile? The advice doesn’t apply to you, great. You don’t have to read it
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Sorry.

I have been a Catholic for over 50 years and lived and worshiped in about 20 states and half a dozen countries. I have never met a single Catholic who placed Mary above God. Not even once. Such confusion is most certainly NOT common among cradle Catholics.

I am not being hostile. I am just trying to place your post in context.
 
I’m four days late responding to this but I wanted to say a few things.
  1. In my experience Cradle Catholics are the least spiritual people I know. They seem to have no real belief in God or anything. This behavior is what helped keep me away from the Church. Once I came to the Church I realized really quick that in reality the Catholic Faith is the MOST spiritual I have ever encountered.
  2. I think what’s happening is that the OP has run into those Catholics who are constantly praising Mary or a particular Saint whom they may love. I hesitate to believe there are many Catholics who truly adore Mary above God, but I do have to say that FROM THE OUTSIDE this is what it sounds like they’re doing.
That said, we cannot judge a person’s heart, even when their words seem to be making that judgment easy to make.

Just using CAF as an example I continually run into people who push Mary ABOVE ALL ELSE. You MUST be “in” with Mary to have a FULL and TRUE relationship with God… this comes off a bit… peculiarly to those of us who did not grow up with this sort of ‘devotion’. Is God so small that He cannot bring us into full communion with Him without the assistance of His saints and creations? This isn’t an issue I’ve fully sorted out yet but these days I try to ignore the Marian devotees. Haha. I guess I’m just not ready for them. 😉

Anyway, I can understand where the OP is coming from and I think it’s a good thing to be reminded about the difference between adoration and devotion. 🙂
 
I don’t know I’m one of them cradle catholics, the church I attend, all the alters are in reverence to the Holy Trinity.

But I do know that Mary is very real. And the words of the Saints very powerfull. Should someone find one of the Saints inspirational or Our Lady has lead them to the Holy Spirit. Then I suggest to you, that the miracle of these consecrated souls is still moving lost souls to Christ. So be it.

The list of Martyred Saints is jaw dropping. Those who pay special reverence to Our Lady are also indeed inspired by God.

I don’t know that this can do anything but lead to Jesus Christ.

But I do understand what your saying and your worry.
 
LilyM said:
Ok - so how many people do you know who speak of Mary or one of the other saints as being actually their creator or saviour? At least independently of their co-operation with GOD’S only and ultimate acts of creation and salvation?

I know of absolutely no-one who approaches anything like adoration of the saints in this manner, apart from one, and only one, very queer and entirely heretical website about Our Lady out of the millions of saint websites that are out there.

So who or what exactly is this friendly warning of yours in aid of?
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The priest at the local church told me that he knew a guy who literally did worship Mary. “I pray directly to Mary, she’s the mother of God so that must mean she’s before God.” We both winced when he recounted those words… (I didn’t ask what the priest did about that, but I’d like to think he set the guy straight.) I didn’t know the difference between the two myself. At least not in terms of religion; so, it is a valid point.
 
I’ve never met a Catholic who placed Mary above God…:confused: having a strong devotion to Mary, praying to her, asking her for help, etc, is not worship… we come to Mary for Jesus’ sake… as St Therese said, we shouldn’t be afraid to love Mary too much, because we can’t love her enough.
 
Jesness said:
The priest at the local church told me that he knew a guy who literally did worship Mary. “I pray directly to Mary, she’s the mother of God so that must mean she’s before God.” We both winced when he recounted those words… (I didn’t ask what the priest did about that, but I’d like to think he set the guy straight.) I didn’t know the difference between the two myself. At least not in terms of religion; so, it is a valid point.
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I may come ‘before’ before a judge, or a King or a President - doesn’t mean I’m ABOVE them in any way, just means that I am in their presence.

Possibly there’s been a misunderstanding here.
 
Couple of points here.
First, To the OP. Thanks for a very well written apologetic on the proper understanding of veneration of the saints. Sorry if some folks get a bit defensive around here. I suspect it comes from too many bouts with protestants who think they know catholicism better than catholics. 🤷

Second, as regards catholics placing Mary above God, while I don’t think that there is an intention to do so, I believe that there are segments within the Church who skirt the line, even crossing the line, between veneration and worship. Like nickybr38 said, there are some even here that get all huffed up if you don’t have what they consider suffcient devotion to Mary. I even had one person on here tell me that I needed to pray through Mary and never directly to God, because “who was I to think I could approach God directly”. This in spite of the fact that Jesus himself told us to pray to “Our Father”.
More recently I had someone intimate to me here that I was not fully home in the faith because I had problems with aspects of the “Hail Holy Queen” prayer.
Devotions to Mary and the Saints are a matter of personal devotion and are not a requirement of the Church for salvation and when individual catholics speak or act as though these devotions ARE a matter of salvation, they are crossing a line.

Third, I agree with the OP and others that we “Cradle Catholics” can be the worst for not being spiritual, Often the result of poor catachism, coupled with having been immersed in the liturgical life of the Church from little on.
This is why I love converts - and reverts, who come home to The Church with such vigor and desire and drive. So - Marion, and nicky and all the others coming home, Welcome and thanks for making us think and grow.

Peace
James
 
JRKH said:
Couple of points here.
First, To the OP. Thanks for a very well written apologetic on the proper understanding of veneration of the saints. Sorry if some folks get a bit defensive around here. I suspect it comes from too many bouts with protestants who think they know catholicism better than catholics. 🤷

Second, as regards catholics placing Mary above God, while I don’t think that there is an intention to do so, I believe that there are segments within the Church who skirt the line, even crossing the line, between veneration and worship. Like nickybr38 said, there are some even here that get all huffed up if you don’t have what they consider suffcient devotion to Mary. I even had one person on here tell me that I needed to pray through Mary and never directly to God, because “who was I to think I could approach God directly”. This in spite of the fact that Jesus himself told us to pray to “Our Father”.
More recently I had someone intimate to me here that I was not fully home in the faith because I had problems with aspects of the “Hail Holy Queen” prayer.
Devotions to Mary and the Saints are a matter of personal devotion and are not a requirement of the Church for salvation and when individual catholics speak or act as though these devotions ARE a matter of salvation, they are crossing a line.

Third, I agree with the OP and others that we “Cradle Catholics” can be the worst for not being spiritual, Often the result of poor catachism, coupled with having been immersed in the liturgical life of the Church from little on.
This is why I love converts - and reverts, who come home to The Church with such vigor and desire and drive. So - Marion, and nicky and all the others coming home, Welcome and thanks for making us think and grow.

Peace
James
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James, you and Carson Weber, with your steady, level-headed approach to Mary are the two people who have helped me to understand her role. I am not quite a Marian devotee by any stretch BUT I understand now. I get it. And it’s thanks to you and Mr. CW.

So thank you for being a voice of reason. 🙂

I find myself able to better appreciate the Rosary now and I even have a better respect for Mary. And honestly it would have taken me MUCH longer if not for your wisdom.

Thank you for being so willing to explain these things over and over as more of us newbies come onto this forum.
 
nickybr38 said:
James, you and Carson Weber, with your steady, level-headed approach to Mary are the two people who have helped me to understand her role. I am not quite a Marian devotee by any stretch BUT I understand now. I get it. And it’s thanks to you and Mr. CW.

So thank you for being a voice of reason. 🙂

I find myself able to better appreciate the Rosary now and I even have a better respect for Mary. And honestly it would have taken me MUCH longer if not for your wisdom.

Thank you for being so willing to explain these things over and over as more of us newbies come onto this forum.
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Well - Thank you for the kind words.

I Love our Dear Mother, but I also know that she, like any good mother, would not want to be a stumbling block to anyone “coming home” to the Church. So my speaking as I do is intended to help others get past the “stumbling block” that Marion devotion can be to them.
Once they see that it is something personal, and that they don’t have to give up praying as they are use to (directly to The Father), they may feel more comfortable entering the Church, then once in they can learn “at their own pace” to rightly and properly venerate Mary.
I’m glad to hear that it is of help to others.
But any “wisdom” in my words is not mine but God’s.

Peace
James
 
JRKH said:
Well - Thank you for the kind words.

I Love our Dear Mother, but I also know that she, like any good mother, would not want to be a stumbling block to anyone “coming home” to the Church. So my speaking as I do is intended to help others get past the “stumbling block” that Marion devotion can be to them.
Once they see that it is something personal, and that they don’t have to give up praying as they are use to (directly to The Father), they may feel more comfortable entering the Church, then once in they can learn “at their own pace” to rightly and properly venerate Mary.
I’m glad to hear that it is of help to others.
But any “wisdom” in my words is not mine but God’s.

Peace
James
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Absolutely, but you have your part. Because when God says speak, you say; Yes, Lord.

😉
 
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