L
Lev23
Guest
This is in response to a post in another thread.
HashemEchad:
Lets “carefully” discuss this.
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IvanKaramozov
Guest
I agrea with the Jews.This is in response to a post in another thread.
Lets “carefully” discuss this.
I don’t see why need to quote mine the Bible looking for one section of a chapter that can be vaguely paralleled by Jesus and claim it’s a prophecy
L
Lev23
Guest
While there are certain elements of Isaiah 53 that can be attributed to Israel the people , ultimately this prophecy is about Yeshua. No other people or person fulfilled this prophecy and every detail of it like Yeshua did.
T
The_GreyPilgrim
Guest
Isaiah 53 is hardly the only text that finds it’s fulfillment in Christ:
He would be born of a virgin (Isaiah 7:14 / Matthew 1:21-23; Luke 1:26-35)
He would be born in Bethlehem (Micah 5:2 / Matthew 2:1; Luke 2:4-7)
He would be heralded by a messenger of the Lord (John the Baptist) (Isaiah 40:3-5; Malachi 3:1 / Matthew 3:1-3; 11:10; Mark 1:2-3; Luke 7:27)
He would perform miracles (Isaiah 35:5-6; Matthew 9:35, and throughout the gospels)
He would preach good news (Isaiah 61:1-2 / Luke 4:14-21)
He would first present himself as king 173,880 days from the decree to rebuild Jerusalem (Daniel 9:25 / Matthew 21:4-9; Mark 11:1-10; Luke 19:29-38)
He would enter Jerusalem as king riding a donkey (Zechariah 9:9 / Matthew 21:4-9; Mark 11:1-10; Luke 19:29-38)
He would die a humiliating and painful death (Psalm 22; Isaiah 53 / Matthew 27; Mark 15; Luke 23; John 19)
His hands and feet would be pierced (Psalm 22:16; / Crucifixion accounts of Matthew 27; Mark 15; Luke 23; John 19)
His executioners would cast lots for his clothing (Psalm 22:18; John 19:23-24)
None of his bones would be broken in his execution (Psalm 34:20; John 19:32-36)
His side would be pierced (Zechariah 12:10; John 19:34-37)
He would die with the wicked and be buried in a rich man’s tomb (Isaiah 53:9; Matthew 27:57-60)
He would be born of a virgin (Isaiah 7:14 / Matthew 1:21-23; Luke 1:26-35)
He would be born in Bethlehem (Micah 5:2 / Matthew 2:1; Luke 2:4-7)
He would be heralded by a messenger of the Lord (John the Baptist) (Isaiah 40:3-5; Malachi 3:1 / Matthew 3:1-3; 11:10; Mark 1:2-3; Luke 7:27)
He would perform miracles (Isaiah 35:5-6; Matthew 9:35, and throughout the gospels)
He would preach good news (Isaiah 61:1-2 / Luke 4:14-21)
He would first present himself as king 173,880 days from the decree to rebuild Jerusalem (Daniel 9:25 / Matthew 21:4-9; Mark 11:1-10; Luke 19:29-38)
He would enter Jerusalem as king riding a donkey (Zechariah 9:9 / Matthew 21:4-9; Mark 11:1-10; Luke 19:29-38)
He would die a humiliating and painful death (Psalm 22; Isaiah 53 / Matthew 27; Mark 15; Luke 23; John 19)
His hands and feet would be pierced (Psalm 22:16; / Crucifixion accounts of Matthew 27; Mark 15; Luke 23; John 19)
His executioners would cast lots for his clothing (Psalm 22:18; John 19:23-24)
None of his bones would be broken in his execution (Psalm 34:20; John 19:32-36)
His side would be pierced (Zechariah 12:10; John 19:34-37)
He would die with the wicked and be buried in a rich man’s tomb (Isaiah 53:9; Matthew 27:57-60)
L
Lev23
Guest
You’re correct on this. But this person makes the claim that a careful reading of Isaiah 53 will lead the reader to conclude the this particular prophecy is about the Israeli people and not the career of Yeshua as the suffering servant Messiah.Isaiah 53 is hardly the only text that finds it’s fulfillment in Christ:
T
The_GreyPilgrim
Guest
OK well lets look at that assertion:
Isa.53
[1]
Who has believed what we have heard?
And to whom has the arm of the LORD been revealed?
[2] For he grew up before him like a young plant,
and like a root out of dry ground;
he had no form or comeliness that we should look at him,
and no beauty that we should desire him.
[3] He was despised and rejected by men;
a man of sorrows, and acquainted with grief;
and as one from whom men hide their faces
he was despised, and we esteemed him not.
[4] Surely he has borne our griefs
and carried our sorrows;
yet we esteemed him stricken,
smitten by God, and afflicted.
[5] But he was wounded for our transgressions,
he was bruised for our iniquities;
upon him was the chastisement that made us whole,
and with his stripes we are healed.
[6] All we like sheep have gone astray;
we have turned every one to his own way;
and the LORD has laid on him
the iniquity of us all.
[7] He was oppressed, and he was afflicted,
yet he opened not his mouth;
like a lamb that is led to the slaughter,
and like a sheep that before its shearers is dumb,
so he opened not his mouth.
[8] By oppression and judgment he was taken away;
and as for his generation, who considered
that he was cut off out of the land of the living,
stricken for the transgression of my people?
[9] And they made his grave with the wicked
and with a rich man in his death,
although he had done no violence,
and there was no deceit in his mouth.
[10] Yet it was the will of the LORD to bruise him;
he has put him to grief;
when he makes himself an offering for sin,
he shall see his offspring, he shall prolong his days;
the will of the LORD shall prosper in his hand;
[11] he shall see the fruit of the travail of his soul and be satisfied;
by his knowledge shall the righteous one, my servant,
make many to be accounted righteous;
and he shall bear their iniquities.
[12] Therefore I will divide him a portion with the great,
and he shall divide the spoil with the strong;
because he poured out his soul to death,
and was numbered with the transgressors;
yet he bore the sin of many,
and made intercession for the transgressors.
Now the word here speaks of him-the servant-in the singular.
Yet why does Isaiah whenever he refers to Israel as a collective he refers to the collective in the feminine(Is 1:21; 62:5)?
Isa.53
[1]
Who has believed what we have heard?
And to whom has the arm of the LORD been revealed?
[2] For he grew up before him like a young plant,
and like a root out of dry ground;
he had no form or comeliness that we should look at him,
and no beauty that we should desire him.
[3] He was despised and rejected by men;
a man of sorrows, and acquainted with grief;
and as one from whom men hide their faces
he was despised, and we esteemed him not.
[4] Surely he has borne our griefs
and carried our sorrows;
yet we esteemed him stricken,
smitten by God, and afflicted.
[5] But he was wounded for our transgressions,
he was bruised for our iniquities;
upon him was the chastisement that made us whole,
and with his stripes we are healed.
[6] All we like sheep have gone astray;
we have turned every one to his own way;
and the LORD has laid on him
the iniquity of us all.
[7] He was oppressed, and he was afflicted,
yet he opened not his mouth;
like a lamb that is led to the slaughter,
and like a sheep that before its shearers is dumb,
so he opened not his mouth.
[8] By oppression and judgment he was taken away;
and as for his generation, who considered
that he was cut off out of the land of the living,
stricken for the transgression of my people?
[9] And they made his grave with the wicked
and with a rich man in his death,
although he had done no violence,
and there was no deceit in his mouth.
[10] Yet it was the will of the LORD to bruise him;
he has put him to grief;
when he makes himself an offering for sin,
he shall see his offspring, he shall prolong his days;
the will of the LORD shall prosper in his hand;
[11] he shall see the fruit of the travail of his soul and be satisfied;
by his knowledge shall the righteous one, my servant,
make many to be accounted righteous;
and he shall bear their iniquities.
[12] Therefore I will divide him a portion with the great,
and he shall divide the spoil with the strong;
because he poured out his soul to death,
and was numbered with the transgressors;
yet he bore the sin of many,
and made intercession for the transgressors.
Now the word here speaks of him-the servant-in the singular.
Yet why does Isaiah whenever he refers to Israel as a collective he refers to the collective in the feminine(Is 1:21; 62:5)?
K
Kaninchen
Guest
I’d argue that what it really depends on is ‘the reader’.You’re correct on this. But this person makes the claim that a careful reading of Isaiah 53 will lead the reader to conclude the this particular prophecy is about the Israeli people and not the career of Yeshua as the suffering servant Messiah.
If one starts with ‘Yeshua’ and trawls through the Tanakh, then I’m sure that one can find all sorts of ‘links’, ‘predictions’ and ‘parallels’ which make ‘Yeshua’ perfect sense. If one starts with the Tanakh and looks at ‘Yeshua’, the whole business makes no sense at all.
Not only that but . . . . so often, to this particular Jew, anyway . . . the ‘predictions’ and the ‘events predicted’ seem terribly contrived. For example, from Micah there’s an expectation that the Messiah would be born in Bethlehem so we get a terribly contrived story of ‘Yeshua’ being born in Bethlehem.
So, start with the idea that the ‘New Testament’ is a sacred text and you’ll ‘see’ one set of things, start with the idea that it’s just a collection of texts put together with a specific purpose - establishing that an individual was Messiah and not just Messiah but God-Messiah (and being very miffed with the naughty, naughty Jews for not believing in it, so we’ll sell it to the Greeks and Romans) - and you’ll ‘see’ another set of things.
L
Lev23
Guest
So, in light of other prophecies in the OT, how does one read Isaiah 53 and come away with that it is prophecy aout the Jewish people as a whole and not 1 person?If one starts with the Tanakh and looks at ‘Yeshua’, the whole business makes no sense at all.
.
You are going on about this and that about the NT. But just sticking to the prophecy in the OT, how can one conclude that Isaiah 53 means the land or people of Israel and not conclude it is referring to one person?
L
Lev23
Guest
Messiahs rejection by most of Israel was foretold, and also the God of Israel’s acceptance of gentiles was foretold by the prophets of Israel.So, start with the idea that the ‘New Testament’ is a sacred text and you’ll ‘see’ one set of things, start with the idea that it’s just a collection of texts put together with a specific purpose - establishing that an individual was Messiah and not just Messiah but God-Messiah (and being very miffed with the naughty, naughty Jews for not believing in it, so we’ll sell it to the Greeks and Romans) - and you’ll ‘see’ another set of things.
As far as your “naughty Jews” comment, Isaiah 53:6 reads:
We all, like sheep, have gone astray,
each of us has turned to his own way;
and the LORD has laid on him
the iniquity of us all.
This verse says we all have been “naughty”. So wheter one decides to come to Yeshua or not, we are all “naughty”. So you cannot use that tongue-in-cheek reference anymore.
So anyways, who is qualified for the Lord to lay all of our iniquities on “him” who is mentioned in Isaiah 53:6?
K
Kaninchen
Guest
I see, so you’re suggesting that it might be any Jew and/or fictional character who has suffered? Put your mind to it and you can turn pieces of text into predictions of anything, I guess - Aragorn in Lord Of The Rings might be a candidate.So, in light of other prophecies in the OT, how does one read Isaiah 53 and come away with that it is prophecy aout the Jewish people as a whole and not 1 person?
You are going on about this and that about the NT. But just sticking to the prophecy in the OT, how can one conclude that Isaiah 53 means the land or people of Israel and not conclude it is referring to one person who is a “suffering servant” of the God of Israel?
Never mind all that, forgetting completely the contents the New Testament and ‘Yeshua’, how could Isaiah 53 refer to anything but ‘Israel’?
K
Kaninchen
Guest
Your interpretations are all based on your context, as I suggested, as are mine, of course.Messiahs rejection by most of Israel was foretold, and also the God of Israel’s acceptance of gentiles was foretold by the prophets of Israel.
To you your scriptures are holy texts, to me they’re ‘Lord of The Rings’ or ‘Harry Potter’ - no more or less significant than the Qur’an and Book of Mormon.
One of the reasons Christians and Jews talk at one another rather than to one another.
L
Lev23
Guest
The NT writings are from Jews who walked with and witnessed the career of Yeshua, who testify from their prophets who Yeshua is. These Jews were the remnant of Israel.Your interpretations are all based on your context, as I suggested, as are mine, of course.
To you your scriptures are holy texts, to me they’re ‘Lord of The Rings’ or ‘Harry Potter’ - no more or less significant than the Qur’an and Book of Mormon.
One of the reasons Christians and Jews talk at one another rather than to one another.
K
Kaninchen
Guest
Well, you would say that, wouldn’t you? Just as, being me I wouldn’t believe a word of it.The NT writings are from Jews who walked with and witnessed the career of Yeshua, who testify from their prophets who Yeshua is. These Jews were the remnant of Israel.
L
Lev23
Guest
OK, lets compare another prophecy from the OT. Lets see what the God of Israel says about his people in Ezekial 36, and lets see if Israel the people can be compatible with Isaiah 53.Never mind all that, forgetting completely the contents the New Testament and ‘Yeshua’, how could Isaiah 53 refer to anything but ‘Israel’?
Ezekial 36:16-32
** Again the word of the LORD came to me: "Son of man, when the people of Israel were living in their own land, they defiled it by their conduct and their actions. Their conduct was like a woman’s monthly uncleanness in my sight. So I poured out my wrath on them because they had shed blood in the land and because they had defiled it with their idols. I dispersed them among the nations, and they were scattered through the countries; I judged them according to their conduct and their actions. And wherever they went among the nations they profaned my holy name, for it was said of them, ‘These are the LORD’s people, and yet they had to leave his land.’ I had concern for my holy name, which the house of Israel profaned among the nations where they had gone.
"Therefore say to the house of Israel, 'This is what the Sovereign LORD says: It is not for your sake, O house of Israel, that I am going to do these things, but for the sake of my holy name, which you have profaned among the nations where you have gone. I will show the holiness of my great name, which has been profaned among the nations, the name you have profaned among them. Then the nations will know that I am the LORD, declares the Sovereign LORD, when I show myself holy through you before their eyes.
" 'For I will take you out of the nations; I will gather you from all the countries and bring you back into your own land. I will sprinkle clean water on you, and you will be clean; I will cleanse you from all your impurities and from all your idols. I will give you a new heart and put a new spirit in you; I will remove from you your heart of stone and give you a heart of flesh. And I will put my Spirit in you and move you to follow my decrees and be careful to keep my laws. You will live in the land I gave your forefathers; you will be my people, and I will be your God. I will save you from all your uncleanness. I will call for the grain and make it plentiful and will not bring famine upon you. I will increase the fruit of the trees and the crops of the field, so that you will no longer suffer disgrace among the nations because of famine. Then you will remember your evil ways and wicked deeds, and you will loathe yourselves for your sins and detestable practices.**
And finally verse 32-
I want you to know that I am not doing this for your sake, declares the Sovereign LORD. Be ashamed and disgraced for your conduct, O house of Israel!
So tell me how does what your God says about the people of Israel be the person spoken of in Isaiah 53? It seems like the people in Ezekial 36 need this person in Isaiah 53. It turns out all mankind needs the one mentioned of in Isaiah 53.
K
Kaninchen
Guest
No, let’s not do anything of the sort. Let’s not spend our time mixing and matching sets of texts in a context determined by a Christian agenda.OK, lets compare another prophecy from the OT. Lets see what the God of Israel says about his people in Ezekial 36, and lets see if Israel the people can be compatible with Isaiah 53.
If I want to mix and match sets of texts, I’ll do it in a context determined by a Jewish agenda.
L
Lev23
Guest
So are you saying that either Isaiah or Ezekial is not the Word of the Lord? Are these just “texts” to you?No, let’s not do anything of the sort. Let’s not spend our time mixing and matching sets of texts in a context determined by a Christian agenda.
If I want to mix and match sets of texts, I’ll do it in a context determined by a Jewish agenda.
Come on, this is the word spoken by the God of Israel through his prophets.
L
Lev23
Guest
I thought Messiah is a Jewish agenda.If I want to mix and match sets of texts, I’ll do it in a context determined by a Jewish agenda.
K
Kaninchen
Guest
I started out by saying that it depended on ‘the reader’, I’m continuing to say that it depends on ‘the reader’.So are you saying that either Isaiah or Ezekial is not the Word of the Lord? Are these just “texts” to you?
Come on, this is the word spoken by the God of Israel through his prophets.
K
Kaninchen
Guest
Yes and ‘Yeshua’ fulfilled every prophesy that could be achieved by text manipulation. Strange that.I thought Messiah is a Jewish agenda.
L
Lev23
Guest
So who are you looking for in a Messiah? It’s strange, I have heard Rabbis who take pride in debunking every messianic prophesy concerning Yeshua. Which leads me to ask, where do these Rabbis get any idea that there even is a messiah?Yes and ‘Yeshua’ fulfilled every prophesy that could be achieved by text manipulation. Strange that.
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