K
Kaninchen
Guest
Since I’m about to go out to work, I can only say that ‘Google can be your friend’.
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L
Lev23
Guest
Have a good day at work. May the God of Israel bless and keep you!
I
inJESUS
Guest
I have still not read one response from Jewish members…it’d be interesting if theological arguments are given, not just “Christian agenda” mantra…the Jewish authors of the NT themselves said they write in order for people to believe he is the Messiah…no conspiracies involved…many interesting quotes and questions were raised and it’d be interesting to see them from a Jewish perspective.
K
Kaninchen
Guest
I’ve been Jewish from birth.
Saying something once is a ‘mantra’?
You assume that but there’s no reason for anybody else to assume it. To me it’s a very well constructed piece of work but that doesn’t make the ‘life story’ contents ‘reportage’, never mind the rest of it.
Suppose for a moment that there was no ‘Jesus’ or New Testament at all and we were just talking about the Tanakh itself (the ‘Old Testament’) what would you think that it was about?
Consider that for a moment or two and then consider my single utterance ‘mantra’ again.
H
HashemEchad
Guest
This link should help explain the correct understanding of Isaiah 53:
home.att.net/~fiddlerzvi/Isaiah53.html
And for the Jews on this thread wanting to learn more, see:
messiahtruth.com
One question for the Christians: if you are entitled to distort our Scriptures to fit your beliefs, are we entitled to do the same with your scriptures?
home.att.net/~fiddlerzvi/Isaiah53.html
And for the Jews on this thread wanting to learn more, see:
messiahtruth.com
One question for the Christians: if you are entitled to distort our Scriptures to fit your beliefs, are we entitled to do the same with your scriptures?
B
b_justb
Guest
Just adding my same sentiments
K
Kaninchen
Guest
Christian posters do seem unaware of how Judaism ‘works’ as a religion, they always seem to assume that the concept of ‘Messiah’ plays the central role in Judaism as it does in Christianity and so conversations always seem to me to perpetually miss the point. How do we get over to them the idea that, while the concept is important, the focus of Judaism is more multi-faceted?
H
HashemEchad
Guest
Exactly. They fail to grasp that in JUDAISM, “Messiah” (Mashiach) simply means “one who has been anointed”. This is why in Judaism, Kings David, Solomon and Saul were also called “mashiach”, since they’d been anointed as kings.
Jesus was never “anointed”, according to the NT, though I know Christians claim that the Ruach HaKodesh supposedly “anointed” Jesus by descending in the form of a dove (but that is not an actual “anointing”.)
In Judaism, “Mashiach” also does not mean divinity. The Messiah was never, never intended to be divine. That beliefs comes straight out of pre-Christian paganism, but they fail to see that.
K
Kaninchen
Guest
Thank you, fortunately I only have appointments on Friday mornings.
K
Kaninchen
Guest
It all does distract them from understanding Judaism, that’s why, I asked inJESUS the question: “Suppose for a moment that there was no ‘Jesus’ or New Testament at all and we were just talking about the Tanakh itself (the ‘Old Testament’) what would you think that it was about?”
It would be interesting to find out what Christians here might imagine it was “all about” in that situation.
H
HashemEchad
Guest
I’ve asked missionaries that, when I debated them, and they nev er responded either.
One good point that the link I posted points out, is that Isaiah 53 is really a continuation of the previous chapter (remember, in ancient scrolls, they did not have chapter divisions, that was a more recent development.)
When you read Isaiah 53 IN CONTEXT from the previous chapter, you see what’s being spoken about, and its clearly not Jesus.
K
Kaninchen
Guest
In a near decade and a half on message boards on the internet, I couldn’t even guess at the number of times it’s turned up - I used to argue the point, then I learned that, no matter how many times one did so, it would turn up again (with the same people as often as not), in much the same form and ‘here we go again’*.
That’s why I’m much more “the way Judaism ‘works’/the way Christianity 'works”, now. Somehow the Christian assumption that:
Christianity = Judaism + Jesus; and
Judaism = Christianity - Jesus,
has to be dealt with or we’re forever having to explain Judaism within a Christian paradigm - as if all Jews ever did was to think of ways of dismissing Jesus as Messiah.
- It has to be said that the development of Jewish sites dealing with issues like Isaiah 53 etc was a great blessing!
H
HashemEchad
Guest
Exactly. The thing is, some nonreligious/secular Jews don’t help matters for the rest of us, when they talk as if the sum total of Judaism is that “well, we don’t believe in Jesus”.
K
Kaninchen
Guest
I do understand them though - sometimes one does just want to end the conversation and talk about something else!Exactly. The thing is, some nonreligious/secular Jews don’t help matters for the rest of us, when they talk as if the sum total of Judaism is that “well, we don’t believe in Jesus”.
H
HashemEchad
Guest
When I first found this forum, it was hard for me to handle the barrage of questions and conversionary approaches, because my mom had just died (which is how I found this forum–I was researching some things she had told me about her Catholic childhood.)
But NORMALLY, I’me really up for polemical debating because I’ve been doing it for about 25 or so years. Its “old hat” to me, but I can see why other Jews would just want to not deal with it.
K
Kaninchen
Guest
Becomes terribly, terribly repetitive.
Over the years I’ve become much more interested in the consequences of what people believe rather than why they believe whatever it is that they believe.
H
HashemEchad
Guest
I agree re: the repetitive nature of polemical debates. Frankly, its why I usually just provide a link to a complete refutation of whatever passage is under discussion; it saves me a lot of typing!
K
Kaninchen
Guest
Oh yes, the development of those sites has saved Jewish posters all over the internet an awful lot of typing!
L
Lev23
Guest
Wow, talk about engineering!
For example, towards the bottom of the explanation the writer says-
… that he (i.e., some Israelites)…
How does one come to the singular “he” to describe “some Israelites”? Where is the context for “some”
I can go on and on, shall I?
L
Lev23
Guest
I did this already for you in THIS thread! I took one prophecy of the God of Israel(EZK36) and compared it to what the God of Israel said in another(Isaiah53).
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