Isaiah 53 and Yeshua

[FaithofAbraham]

Christian posters do seem unaware of how Judaism ‘works’ as a religion, they always seem to assume that the concept of ‘Messiah’ plays the central role in Judaism as it does in Christianity and so conversations always seem to me to perpetually miss the point. How do we get over to them the idea that, while the concept is important, the focus of Judaism is more multi-faceted?

The role of Messiah has been grossly minimized in Judaism in the ongoing effort to increase distance from the Messiah of Christianity.

When in fact the historical hope of Jews, redemption and restoration back to Israel, is supposed to be enabled by Messiah.

It’s all quite contradictory and pretentious, really. But maybe necessary to avoid facing the tough question of why an Israel even exists again without a Messiah.

 

[MementoMori3283]

We believe that God wanted to prepare the WHOLE world for the coming of the true Messiah, but first, He had to find a way to make Gentiles (who until Christianity and Islam, were polytheists) grasp the very CONCEPT of what a messiah is. Remember, “messiah” was a JEWISH concept ONLY.

Christianity has done the work of Judaism for us!

I concur.

Kinda odd isn’t it?

Messiah wasn’t a Jewish concept only.

Messiah was a God concept only, born out of Israel’s rebellion to the Law. Foretold in Dt 30 and taken up throughout the songs and prophets of a few righteous people seeking mercy from their God.

So I ask you, as I see it is not your want to respond to my posts, please tell me why the omnipotent God, Creator of all life, Jew and Gentile alike, One who desires that throughout the world all peoples should know the I AM {Is 45:22-23}, would want to remain concealed in Judaism?

 

[wisdomseeker]

I have to comment: over the years that I have been engaging in polemical debates with missionaries, one theme plays out again and again, be the debaters Catholics or Protestants…

it seems Christians have this desperate zeal to somehow “prove” that their messiah was foretold in the Jewish Scriptures…its as if they cannot rest until they do.

The whole thing just smacks of…well…desperation! Its kind of amusing to me, actually, because I know they feel a burning need to “prove” this, because their entire religion stands or falls on Judaism, since it came out of Judaism. I see so much grasping at straws, trying desperately to “find” Jesus hidden in the Talmud, the Zohar, the Torah, etc…and when the passages you think speak of Jesus are shown to not be, some of you say, “Well, it COULD still mean him”, or, “but don’t SOME Jewish scholars interpret it that way? And doesn’t it say that every Torah passage has more than one meaning?”

It must be pretty hard for Christians to face the fact that their messiah, who was Jewish, was rejected by almost his entire people. That must hurt, I admit.

And I know the answer to that is, “Well, the veil has been placed over their eyes until the second coming, and THEN they will all be saved/converted!” I guess that’s really the only “out” you guys have for trying to explain why 99% of all Jews reject the idea that the true Messiah has already come.

It must be really difficult for you, and I can empathize somewhat. I’ve tried to imagine how a Christian must feel, knowing that the man they chose to worship as a god/messiah, was rejected by his own people, esp. the religious leaders (who you’d think would know best).

It must really be rough!

BUT one thing I think you should understand: traditional Judaism has a belief in WHY God allowed both Islam and Christianity to develop.

We believe that God wanted to prepare the WHOLE world for the coming of the true Messiah, but first, He had to find a way to make Gentiles (who until Christianity and Islam, were polytheists) grasp the very CONCEPT of what a messiah is. Remember, “messiah” was a JEWISH concept ONLY.

How to do it? Simple. Allow not one but two religions to develop, that would adopt elements of Judaism yet not be Judaism (because, after all, Gentiles do not have to become Jews to have a share in the world to come)…in this way, the Jewish concept of ethical monotheism would be spread ALL OVER THE WORLD, by Christian missionaries no less!

THINK! There are Gentile tribes in faraway lands who know of the Jewish God, and the Jewish concept of Messiah, all because of Christians! To an extent, Christianity has done the work of Judaism for us!

Now, when the true Messiah does come, ALL the world will be prepared because now they know what a messiah IS!

And so peoples of all nations will come to God’s holy mountain, to worship Him.

Just one question: according to what you believe, what the Messiah would be like when He comes? how can you identify Him? please quote Scriptures that help you to identify the True Messiah.

 

[HashemEchad]

I concur.

Kinda odd isn’t it?

Messiah wasn’t a Jewish concept only.

Messiah was a God concept only, born out of Israel’s rebellion to the Law. Foretold in Dt 30 and taken up throughout the songs and prophets of a few righteous people seeking mercy from their God.

So I ask you, as I see it is not your want to respond to my posts, please tell me why the omnipotent God, Creator of all life, Jew and Gentile alike, One who desires that throughout the world all peoples should know the I AM {Is 45:22-23}, would want to remain concealed in Judaism?

The answer to you question is very complicated, and it would be hard to explain to someone who is not Jewish.

But suffice it to say, God has His reasons, and in the End of Days everyone will understand it better.

 

[HashemEchad]

Just one question: according to what you believe, what the Messiah would be like when He comes? how can you identify Him? please quote Scriptures that help you to identify the True Messiah.

The true Messiah will be a mortal man

The true Messiah will be a Jewish male, descended physically from King David on his father’s side only (he will also have a Jewish mother)

The true Messiah will usher in an era of peace, illustrated by Isaiah 11:6-9

The true Messiah will accomplish everything the first and only time he comes.

 

[MementoMori3283]

please allow me to respond that what you post could easily be looked at in the same light from a Christian perspective…

it seems Christians have this desperate zeal to somehow “prove” that their messiah was foretold in the Jewish Scriptures…its as if they cannot rest until they do.

Judaism seems to have an equal zeal to disprove, but some take on an attitude of indifference instead of outright indignation at profaning God.

It must be pretty hard for Christians to face the fact that their messiah, who was Jewish, was rejected by almost his entire people. That must hurt, I admit.

it must be pretty hard for today’s Jew to understand that yesterday’s Jew accepted the message of Christ. Christ did not preach in Rome or Constantinople. Christ brought his message to Israel. Israel brought His message to the Gentiles.

I guess that’s really the only “out” you guys have for trying to explain why 99% of all Jews reject the idea that the true Messiah has already come.

interesting to note here, that the Catholic Church does not seek to return the Jews to Zion as a requirement for the Parousia.

Again, it makes perfect sense that 99% of today’s Jewish religion rejects Jesus as the Messiah. However, intellectual honesty prevailing, this was not the case 2,000 years ago.

It must be really difficult for you, and I can empathize somewhat. I’ve tried to imagine how a Christian must feel, knowing that the man they chose to worship as a god/messiah, was rejected by his own people, esp. the religious leaders (who you’d think would know best).

In the historical context of your statement, I would say that some account is given in the Acts of the Apostles and other writings that one does not have to imagine much.

It must really be rough!

Not really. To some who do not grasp the fullness of the Gospel taught in the Catholic Church. Maybe to the polemics you encounter, but to the average believer, no, not really.

BUT one thing I think you should understand: traditional Judaism has a belief in WHY God allowed both Islam and Christianity to develop.

We believe that God wanted to prepare the WHOLE world for the coming of the true Messiah, but first, He had to find a way to make Gentiles (who until Christianity and Islam, were polytheists) grasp the very CONCEPT of what a messiah is. Remember, “messiah” was a JEWISH concept ONLY.

How to do it? Simple. Allow not one but two religions to develop, that would adopt elements of Judaism yet not be Judaism (because, after all, Gentiles do not have to become Jews to have a share in the world to come)…in this way, the Jewish concept of ethical monotheism would be spread ALL OVER THE WORLD, by Christian missionaries no less!

Forgive me if I borrow some of your words. Desperation, grasping at straws, it must be really tough. God will allow Himself to be profaned among the world because His chosen people could not bring the concept of Messiah to the world!?! And in this way, Gentiles would have an understanding of the concept and have a share in the world to come!?!

THINK!

I believe this to be aprospo because of your response that one needs to be Jewish to understand how Is 53 refers to Israel and not a singular individual. It just doesn’t make sense. Even if its not Jesus, its definitely someONE that he speaks of.

To an extent, Christianity has done the work of Judaism for us!..Now, when the true Messiah does come, ALL the world will be prepared because now they know what a messiah IS!

I thought this was the most telling of your entire post…

And so peoples of all nations will come to God’s holy mountain, to worship Him.

The understanding of who and what the Messiah is has always been at the center of any discussion about Jesus. Now and then.

 

[HashemEchad]

The ONLY reason why ANY educated Jews respond to the claims of missionaries is because we dislike seeing our Scriptures misused, taken out of context and distorted to prove the claims of a nonJewish religion.

In the course of history, Christians have killed, maimed, raped and forcibly baptized Jews, mostly in Europe. In the course of the abuse we have suffered from professing Christians, we have HAD to study the Christian scriptures in order to defend OUR beliefs.

To say we are hostile and defensive is to not understand the long, bloody history of the last 2000 years, between Judaism and Christianity.

Imagine, if you will, a small group of people that has been viciously persecuted, threatened, killed, stolen from, driven out of various countries, all because they choose to worship the One God, and refuse to apostasize to another religion.

Imagine that you are part of that group. Wouldn’t YOU become hostile whenever someone tried to do by coercion what was in times past often done by force and threat of death?

We Jews have long memories and we remember our history. This has protected us well.

 

[Daniel_Marsh]

My point is even Jewish intepreters have read the text both ways.
So, I see no problem doing so myself.

 

[Lev23]

Did Jesus see his offspring? Did he marry and have children? Christianity believes he never did this and never will! Therefore, for this reason also Is. 53 dos not apply to him.

Yes he did. The “offspring” being spoke of is his “spiritual offspring”. Remember, those who believe in Messiah are “born again” of God. Read the Gospel of John, chapter 3 for starters.

 

[Lev23]

The true Messiah will be a mortal man

The true Messiah will be a Jewish male, descended physically from King David on his father’s side only (he will also have a Jewish mother)

The true Messiah will usher in an era of peace, illustrated by Isaiah 11:6-9

The true Messiah will accomplish everything the first and only time he comes.

Israel’s Messiah is man and God
**Pslam 110:1
The LORD says to my Lord:
“Sit at my right hand
until I make your enemies
a footstool for your feet.” **

Do you want more OT prophecies of this fact?

 

[Kaninchen]

Yes he did. The “offspring” being spoke of is his “spiritual offspring”. Remember, those who believe in Messiah are “born again” of God. Read the Gospel of John, chapter 3 for starters.

‘Achievement’ of prophesy through text manipulation, yet again.

 

[Lev23]

In the course of history, Christians have killed, maimed, raped and forcibly baptized Jews, mostly in Europe. In the course of the abuse we have suffered from professing Christians, we have HAD to study the Christian scriptures in order to defend OUR beliefs.

To say we are hostile and defensive is to not understand the long, bloody history of the last 2000 years, between Judaism and Christianity.

Imagine, if you will, a small group of people that has been viciously persecuted, threatened, killed, stolen from, driven out of various countries, all because they choose to worship the One God, and refuse to apostasize to another religion.

Imagine that you are part of that group. Wouldn’t YOU become hostile whenever someone tried to do by coercion what was in times past often done by force and threat of death?

We Jews have long memories and we remember our history. This has protected us well.

Those that persecuted Jews the last 2000 “for Jesus” were not of Jesus. Jesus only came to the lost sheep of Israel. His disciples at first were all Jewish, and they were to(starting at Jerusalem and out to the ends of the Earth)make disciples of Messiah Yeshua wherever they went. First to the Jew, and then to the gentiles. Paul, the Apostle to the gentiles, even practiced this “to the Jews first.”

The thought of a disciple of Yeshua persecuting his earthly bretheren is bizarre and absurd.

 

[Lev23]

The ONLY reason why ANY educated Jews respond to the claims of missionaries is because we dislike seeing our Scriptures misused, taken out of context and distorted to prove the claims of a nonJewish religion.

Misusing scripture? Taking out of context? Distorted?

Can any educated Jew tell me why there are chapters upon chapters in the Talmund just on keeping the Sabbath?

 

[Kaninchen]

Those that persecuted Jews the last 2000 “for Jesus” were not of Jesus. Jesus only came to the lost sheep of Israel. His disciples at first were all Jewish, and they were to(starting at Jerusalem and out to the ends of the Earth)make disciples of Messiah Yeshua wherever they went. First to the Jew, and then to the gentiles. Paul, the Apostle to the gentiles, even practiced this “to the Jews first.”

The thought of a disciple of Yeshua persecuting his earthly bretheren is bizarre and absurd.

Matthew 7:16

 

[Lev23]

‘Achievement’ of prophesy through text manipulation, yet again.

The only manipulation going on is taking the fact that this is not saying Messiah is God.

 

[Kaninchen]

The only manipulation going on is taking the fact that this is not saying Messiah is God.

I’m sure you’ve really, really impressed yourself there.

 

[Lev23]

Matthew 7:16

Says NOTHING about persecuting Jews.

 

[Lev23]

I’m sure you’ve really, really impressed yourself there.

Are you debating or offering one-liners on me?

 

[Kaninchen]

Says NOTHING about persecuting Jews.

It says that you shall know them by their fruits, doesn’t it?

All you’re saying is: “No Christian can ever do anything naughty because, if they do something naughty, they’re not a Christian” which is just a semantical game.

 

[Kaninchen]

Are you debating or offering one-liners on me?

Actually, I’d just started by making an observation about one of your posts - the achievement of prophesy through text manipulation, the constant feature of fixing Jesus up as Messiah. Using that process, you could make anybody Messiah, you could probably make my cat Messiah.