Isaiah 53 and Yeshua

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It says that you shall know them by their fruits, doesn’t it?

All you’re saying is: “No Christian can ever do anything naughty because, if they do something naughty, they’re not a Christian” which is just a semantical game.
I’m speaking of persecuting Jews, or anyone because they do not believe in Yeshua as Messiah. Yeshua never taught this. As a matter of fact, he told his true disciples, if they hate you, they hated me first.

And I already told you you cant use your “naughty, naughty” rhetoric anymore. All men are “naughty”. That is why Messiah Yeshua died in our place for all mankinds sin.

He was pierced for our transgressions,
he was crushed for our iniquities;
the punishment that brought us peace was upon him,
and by his wounds we are healed.

Yes, this is Israels Messiah! The Lamb of God who took away the sins of the world!
 
Actually, I’d just started by making an observation about one of your posts - the achievement of prophesy through text manipulation, the constant feature of fixing Jesus up as Messiah. Using that process, you could make anybody Messiah, you could probably make my cat Messiah.
No you cannot. As a matter of fact, you and your cat or anyone else are too late to claim Messiahship. No one else fulfilled what the prophets of Israel spoke by the Spirit of God like Yeshua did.

Do you want to talk about Daniels 70 weeks? 🙂
 
I’m speaking of persecuting Jews, or anyone because they do not believe in Yeshua as Messiah. Yeshua never taught this. As a matter of fact, he told his true disciples, if they hate you, they hated me first.

And I already told you you cant use your “naughty, naughty” rhetoric anymore. All men are “naughty”. That is why Messiah Yeshua died in our place for all mankinds sin.

He was pierced for our transgressions,
he was crushed for our iniquities;
the punishment that brought us peace was upon him,
and by his wounds we are healed.

Yes, this is Israels Messiah! The Lamb of God who took away the sins of the world!
So, not only are you demanding to make whatever text you want mean what you want it to mean, you’re demanding to control the meaning of everybody’s words!

You’re obviously impressing yourself a lot with this train of thought.

😃
 
Kaninchen, bad news for your cat, it cannot be Messiah according to the scriptures-

**Daniel 9:24-26
"Seventy ‘sevens’ are decreed for your people and your holy city to finish transgression, to put an end to sin, to atone for wickedness, to bring in everlasting righteousness, to seal up vision and prophecy and to anoint the most holy.

"Know and understand this: From the issuing of the decree to restore and rebuild Jerusalem until the Anointed One, the ruler, comes, there will be seven ‘sevens,’ and sixty-two ‘sevens.’ It will be rebuilt with streets and a trench, but in times of trouble. After the sixty-two ‘sevens,’ the Anointed One will be cut off and will have nothing.**
 
No you cannot. As a matter of fact, you and your cat or anyone else are too late to claim Messiahship. No one else fulfilled what the prophets of Israel spoke by the Spirit of God like Yeshua did.
Hey, it’s easy, all you do is work your way through the Tanakh, take the odd piece of text, then write a story of my cat’s life (or a totally fictional cat) to make it fit. It’s been done before but probably not with with a cat.
Do you want to talk about Daniels 70 weeks? 🙂
Ah, so you’re a clockwork Messiah fan?
 
Lets look closer at Daniel 9:26 and Isaiah 53:8-
Daniel 9:26
After the sixty-two ‘sevens,’ the Anointed One will be cut off and will have nothing.

Isaiah 53:8
For he was cut off from the land of the living;
for the transgression of my people he was stricken
 
Kaninchen, bad news for your cat, it cannot be Messiah according to the scriptures-

**Daniel 9:24-26
"Seventy ‘sevens’ are decreed for your people and your holy city to finish transgression, to put an end to sin, to atone for wickedness, to bring in everlasting righteousness, to seal up vision and prophecy and to anoint the most holy.

"Know and understand this: From the issuing of the decree to restore and rebuild Jerusalem until the Anointed One, the ruler, comes, there will be seven ‘sevens,’ and sixty-two ‘sevens.’ It will be rebuilt with streets and a trench, but in times of trouble. After the sixty-two ‘sevens,’ the Anointed One will be cut off and will have nothing.**
My cat comes from a long line of mothers who produce seven kittens in a litter, she’s actually the seventh kitten of the seventh litter . . . .
 
Hey, it’s easy, all you do is work your way through the Tanakh, take the odd piece of text, then write a story of my cat’s life (or a totally fictional cat) to make it fit. It’s been done before but probably not with with a cat.

Ah, so you’re a clockwork Messiah fan?
:whistle:
 
Lets look closer at Daniel 9:26 and Isaiah 53:8-
Daniel 9:26
After the sixty-two ‘sevens,’ the Anointed One will be cut off and will have nothing.

Isaiah 53:8
For he was cut off from the land of the living;
for the transgression of my people he was stricken
This is getting a bit deranged . . . . .
 
My cat comes from a long line of mothers who produce seven kittens in a litter, she’s actually the seventh kitten of the seventh litter . . . .
:dancing:

Sorry for the smilies, but if you want to be silly, I will to.
 
Biblical Interpretation among the Sectaries of the Dead Sea Scrolls by William H. Brownlee
The Biblical Archaeologist, Vol. 14, No. 3 (Sep., 1951), pp. 54-76

partual quote of exegetical techniques used at Qumran

Everything the ancient prophet wrote has a veiled, eschatological meaning.

For the full meaning of the prophet, more than one meaning may be attached to his words.

See page 189 of Techniques and Assumptions in Jewish Exegesis before 70 CE by David Istone Brewer for a fuller discussion.

and also,

Studies in Hermeneutics, Christology and Discipleship
Richard N. Longenecker
Here
 
No you cannot. As a matter of fact, you and your cat or anyone else are too late to claim Messiahship. No one else fulfilled what the prophets of Israel spoke by the Spirit of God like Yeshua did.

Do you want to talk about Daniels 70 weeks? 🙂
But he didn’t fulfill all the prophecies. Heck, he didn’t even fulfill some of his OWN, like the one in Matt 24! He said that THAT generation would not pass until all be fulfilled (re the end of the world).

But those people (“this generation”) are long dead.

As for the 70 weeks of Daniel, that is one of my favorite debate topics because its so easy to disprove. Unfortunately I don’t have the time right now for lengthy debates, but will a link do?

Just scroll down and find the mp3 for the 70 weeks of Daniel (and maybe check out some of the others while you’re there too):

simpletoremember.com/audio/anti-missionary-mp3s.htm
 
HashemEchad wrote:

**But he didn’t fulfill all the prophecies. Heck, he didn’t even fulfill some of his OWN, like the one in Matt 24! He said that THAT generation would not pass until all be fulfilled (re the end of the world).

But those people (“this generation”) are long dead**.

How do you know for sure that the phrase “this generation” must be interpreted literally? What if Jesus used a hyperbole while expressing the necessity for the fulfillment of His predictions? What if the word “generation” in that phrase pertained to wicked and sinful people? What if the phrase “this generation” was meant to highlight the association between the destruction of the Temple and Jesus’ second coming?
 
HashemEchad;3618880:
But he didn’t fulfill all the prophecies. Heck, he didn’t even fulfill some of his OWN, like the one in Matt 24! He said that THAT generation would not pass until all be fulfilled (re the end of the world).

But those people (“this generation”) are long dead.
How do you know for sure that the phrase “this generation” must be interpreted literally? What if Jesus used a hyperbole while expressing the necessity for the fulfillment of His predictions? What if the word “generation” in that phrase pertained to wicked and sinful people? What if the phrase “this generation” was meant to highlight the association between the destruction of the Temple and Jesus’ second coming?
If you are able to pick and choose what gets interpreted literally and what gets interpreted figuratively, then you can make anything mean anything.

The more I debate Christians, the more they seem to do this…as if they will make Jesus “fit” one way or another.
 
If you are able to pick and choose what gets interpreted literally and what gets interpreted figuratively, then you can make anything mean anything.

The more I debate Christians, the more they seem to do this…as if they will make Jesus “fit” one way or another.
Actually, you are the one who picks and chooses what must be interpreted literally in the New Testament. Can you make Jesus fit your way rather than ours? The answer is No I guess.

It is probable that Jesus used a hyperbole when He said:

Matthew 24: 34 Amen I say to you that this generation shall not pass till all these things be done.

This is because in the next sentence He makes a similar statement:

Matthew 24:35 Heaven and earth shall pass: but my words shall not pass.

Besides, Jesus’ speech here is totally apocalyptic, which might attach a new sense to the phrase “this generation”. Above all, Jesus implies that His disciples will see these things take place:

Matthew 24:33 So you also, when you shall see all these things, know you that it is nigh, even at the doors.

In this case the phrase “this generation” refers to the generation of Jesus’ believers, who will always exist until His coming.
 
Remembering that I’m a Catholic and believe Isaiah 53 does speak of Jesus, read it in the context of the Jewish people, the holocaust, and the founding of the modern state of Israel.
1 'Who would have believed our report? And to whom hath the arm of HaShem been revealed?
2 For he shot up right forth as a sapling, and as a root out of a dry ground; he had no form nor comeliness, that we should look upon him, nor beauty that we should delight in him.
This could speak to the origins of the Jews from the desert or the fact that they have been down for the count many times only to recover to the amazement of all around. They’ve been looked down upon by all other races.

3
He was despised, and forsaken of men, a man of pains, and acquainted with disease, and as one from whom men hide their face: he was despised, and we esteemed him not.
Speaks for itself, the Jews as a race have long suffered.
4 Surely our diseases he did bear, and our pains he carried; whereas we did esteem him stricken, smitten of G-d, and afflicted
.Christians have often viewed the Jews as cut offf from God.
5 But he was wounded because of our transgressions, he was crushed because of our iniquities: the chastisement of our welfare was upon him, and with his stripes we were healed.
The suffering of the Jews is also part of what maintains them as a people.
6 All we like sheep did go astray, we turned every one to his own way; and HaShem hath made to light on him the iniquity of us all.
During the Holocaust the secular Jews were killed along side the religious Jews.
7 He was oppressed, though he humbled himself and opened not his mouth; as a lamb that is led to the slaughter, and as a sheep that before her shearers is dumb; yea, he opened not his mouth.
With a few notable exceptions the Jews have borne the torment society has inflicted upon them…namely during the holocaust.
8 By oppression and judgment he was taken away, and with his generation who did reason? for he was cut off out of the land of the living, for the transgression of my people to whom the stroke was due.
Especially during the Holocaust and for those who endured it they seemed to be down for the count…cut off from the living…almost anihilated.
9 And they made his grave with the wicked, and with the rich his tomb; although he had done no violence, neither was any deceit in his mouth.’
The Jews were unjustly persecuted throughout history…rich and poor alike.
10 Yet it pleased HaShem to crush him by disease; to see if his soul would offer itself in restitution, that he might see his seed, prolong his days, and that the purpose of HaShem might prosper by his hand:
Inspite of the persecution the Jews are still God’s Chosen and God used the shame and guilt of the holocaust to help establish modern Israel.
11 Of the travail of his soul he shall see to the full, even My servant, who by his knowledge did justify the Righteous One to the many, and their iniquities he did bear.
12 Therefore will I divide him a portion among the great, and he shall divide the spoil with the mighty; because he bared his soul unto death, and was numbered with the transgressors; yet he bore the sin of many, and made intercession for the transgressors.
The Jewish people have been revived, directly related (in my opinion) to the guilt of the West for the holocaust the nation of Israel was formed…the Jewish people, almost extinct in Europe, have now risen to a stong modern nation.

You don’t have to follow my meager attempt at analyizing this scripture, but if you read IS 53 with the thought of what the Jews have suffered, especially during the holocaust, and the modern nation of Israel you can see how it can also be applied to the Jews as a whole.
 
I am stunned.

Your analysis of Isaiah 53 as it applies to the Jewish people is PRECISELY the Jewish analysis!

How did you arrive at it, though a Christian?

I realize you do not agree with that analysis, but that’s the very way we see it!

In fact, what always made my blood chill was the way secular and antireligious Jews would mock the religious Jews who died in the death camps, saying things like, “Yeah, all they did was pray, and then they walked like sheep to their deaths!”

(that’s straight out of Isaiah 53 and the antireligious Jews did not even realize it).
 
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